Germans believe that there was US Collusion in 9/11

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-24 07:47pm

Tribun wrote:
Howedar wrote:A point of order: one third of Germans under 20 are idiots. Only 19% of the whole population is stupid.
Even if it were true, what you said, then in a mathematical correct way, the number of idiots under 20 in the US are way over 60%.

No, the percent of American's that just don't give a damn about the rest of the world is over 60%. Actual idiots is much less.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-24 07:51pm

This is the same nation that thought it could win an invasion of a nation with twice the economic strength and known for its vast distances. There reasoning skills are not something that should be thought highly of.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-07-24 09:47pm

Germany: Good food, good beer, good soldiers, bad relationship skills.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » 2003-07-24 10:17pm

Coyote wrote:There is a qualitative difference between having a population that harmlessly believes God created the Earth 5000 years ago.... it is stupid but harmless.....

.....and seriously believing that the US government knowingly and actively plotted in a terrorist atrocity? Come on.

It is one thing to be in protest of American policies, but this is a level of stupidity that borders on the insane. It ranks more along the lines of UFOs bulding the pyramids and other X-Files.

So nearby half of the americans belief en creationism rather than in evolution, if that's NOT being retarded... and that would be almost 50% of you entire population. You say that it is HARMLESS, so what HARM can do 30% of the german population under the age of 30?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-07-24 10:49pm

Posbi wrote:There are far too many unanswered questions on the 9/11 incident, and too many things simply not fitting the official agenda as that I could say I believe the "proof" (well, or the lack thereof) the US has been presenting so far. So, to make you happy, you can count me in at least on almost bordering on the "30% crowd" over here.
And unless I got presented water-tight proof and plausible explanations for the multitude of fuckups that allowed 9/11 to happen - and for the surprising speed with which the "usual suspects" were being blamed - I'm not gonna change my mind.
With the attitude to truth and revelations the recent US government shows it's rather hard to keep up the pro-US stance I've had so long...

Any gaps in the officialdom can be explained by our officialdom's policy of kow-towing to the Saudi Government and Nationals, and the terrorists, the vast majority of whom were Saudis, exploiting this, if not receiving outright aide from the KSA in that climate. Please remember that sections regarding KSA complicity were still dropped from the bipartisan report on 9/11 security failures. Their money buys many friends in Washington D.C.; that, certainly, may be the problem.

But what is being suggested here is something entirely different, much more serious, and highly disgusting, especially in its popularity.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-07-24 11:26pm

I find it very hard to believe any kind of conspiracy theory – especially today.

If September 11th or Pearl Harbor were the greatest self-inflicted tragedies of their times, why exactly weren’t they spun more effectively?

We’d have gone to war with Japan regardless of whether or not we’d actually destroyed several dozen of their aircraft during a botched air assault and proved that “America is always on guard.”

We’d have gone after the terrorists anyway regardless of whether or not we’d had to shoot down three passenger airliners.

The "save your own arse" part of the conspiracy doesn't play out here. If Bush and Roosevelt were responsible, it sure as hell wasn't well-executed.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-07-24 11:47pm

The president need not know about any misdoings. Could've been done by the military to get more funding or some such.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-07-24 11:58pm

Wedge wrote:So nearby half of the americans belief en creationism rather than in evolution, if that's NOT being retarded... and that would be almost 50% of you entire population. You say that it is HARMLESS, so what HARM can do 30% of the german population under the age of 30?

Well, as I said: believing that an otherworldly being created the world isn't going to harm anyone...

...on the other hand 30% of the German people-- people who will vote and essentially control the economic engine of Europe and major descisions on Contintental foreign policy-- will be making their political descisions based on something that is fucking stupid and delusional.

It makes as much sense as me saying that the German government actively plotted the Yugoslav war and used Milosivec as a puppet to scare Europe into giving Germany more power-- and allowing the German military to deploy overseas for the first time since World War 2. Then the Bundeswehr can get ready for another attack on Russia...

Does that sound goddamn stupid? It should, because it is. I just made it up. But I bet I could get some nationalist Russians to believe it.

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2003-07-25 12:05am

It makes as much sense as me saying that the German government actively plotted the Yugoslav war and used Milosivec as a puppet to scare Europe into giving Germany more power-- and allowing the German military to deploy overseas for the first time since World War 2. Then the Bundeswehr can get ready for another attack on Russia...

But..they are, arn't they? </paranoia>

Just as a errant thought on that. It would be the greatest ass-kicking ever seen I think:)

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » 2003-07-25 12:19am

Coyote wrote: Well, as I said: believing that an otherworldly being created the world isn't going to harm anyone...

...on the other hand 30% of the German people-- people who will vote and essentially control the economic engine of Europe and major descisions on Contintental foreign policy-- will be making their political descisions based on something that is fucking stupid and delusional.

Hahahaha.
Yes you are right, the WORLD SHOULD TREMBLE, all american citizens SHOULD FEAR, because in a stupid poll 30% of all germans BELOW 30 said that they believed the U.S governement MAY have sponsored the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.
Yes I can begin to hear "Deutschland Deutschland über alles..." .
Germany could become a menace, put us in your list.

Ok, sarcarsm apart so how can 20% of the German population become a risk or be of any harm. You should be more concerned about you 50% that believe in creationism. They can also vote, they will also vote making their political desicions based on something stupid and delusional, and since the US is more powerful economically and military then Germany i believe your fundies can cause more harm then our conspiracy theorists.

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-07-25 12:53am

Coyote wrote:
Well, as I said: believing that an otherworldly being created the world isn't going to harm anyone...

...on the other hand 30% of the German people-- people who will vote and essentially control the economic engine of Europe and major descisions on Contintental foreign policy-- will be making their political descisions based on something that is fucking stupid and delusional.

ROFL! And creationists don't also base their political decisions on something that is "fucking stupid and delusional"? Not going to harm anyone my ass, you don't have to look further than this forum to find the kind of harm Creationists cause.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-07-25 12:55am

Wedge wrote:Hahahaha.
Yes you are right, the WORLD SHOULD TREMBLE, all american citizens SHOULD FEAR, because in a stupid poll 30% of all germans BELOW 30 said that they believed the U.S governement MAY have sponsored the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington....

Well, it may be pointless to worry if Germany's voting records are as piss-poor as ours....

But you do not find this in the least bit alarming? That so many people would believe it? You find this a reasonable belief?

You should be more concerned about you 50% that believe in creationism. They can also vote, they will also vote making their political desicions based on something stupid and delusional, and since the US is more powerful economically and military then Germany i believe your fundies can cause more harm then our conspiracy theorists.

Again, I can believe that God created the world and that My Little Pony channels the spirit of Elvis to help me pick lottery numbers... but that belief does not affect anyone. Even if I convert every single person in the world to believe that God created the world, but they are remarkably clear-headed about everything else, that does not harm the world. It becomes a "who cares" argument.

Creationism by itself is a harmless fantasy. There is a big difference between:
"God told me in his book that he created the world."
--and--
"God told me in his book to murder infidels"

Can you see how one is harmless, and the other harmful?

Running around saying that the US arranged attacks on its own country (for what the fuck reason, pray tell?) is goddamn stupid. Look at the stupid platforms that a fucktard like Jeorge Haider ran on in Austria (or rather, his party)-- they got elected believing stupid things that could have been dangerous if linked to government policies, like how the Nazis were great guys that were simply misunderstood...

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-07-25 01:01am

Hobot wrote:ROFL! And creationists don't also base their political decisions on something that is "fucking stupid and delusional"? Not going to harm anyone my ass, you don't have to look further than this forum to find the kind of harm Creationists cause.

The belief in Creationism, by itself, is not going to harm anyone.

Creationism frequently comes tied to a bunch of other social outlooks pushed by fundamentalists that do stir up trouble. But the creationist philosophy alone is no threat.

Compare Creationist philosophy to the anti-Abortion militantism. Which one is more harmful? No one ever set off a bomb at an observatory for defiling Creationist philosophy.

If you had a Fundie straped in a chair and he said "I'll give up one of my beluiefs if you let me go-- Creationism or anti-Abortion militantism" which will you let him keep?

Think carefully.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » 2003-07-25 01:15am

Coyote wrote: Creationism by itself is a harmless fantasy. There is a big difference between:
"God told me in his book that he created the world."
--and--
"God told me in his book to murder infidels"

Can you see how one is harmless, and the other harmful?

I could just say the same thing.
If people think that MAYBE the US governement was involved in the terror acts of 11th september, WHO fucking cares?
It's not harmfull.
They aren't saying they want to atack/punish USA. So they are not inflicting any damage to anyone.

But you do not find this in the least bit alarming? That so many people would believe it? You find this a reasonable belief?

No, I don't find this a reasonable belief, it's totally absurd. It's like the example you wrote before with Yugoslavia both are stupid.
No, I don't find this alarming, people talk a lot of bullshit, but they can talk all the crap they want because no action is going to follow.

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-07-25 01:16am

Coyote wrote:
Hobot wrote:ROFL! And creationists don't also base their political decisions on something that is "fucking stupid and delusional"? Not going to harm anyone my ass, you don't have to look further than this forum to find the kind of harm Creationists cause.
The belief in Creationism, by itself, is not going to harm anyone.

Creationism frequently comes tied to a bunch of other social outlooks pushed by fundamentalists that do stir up trouble. But the creationist philosophy alone is no threat.

Compare Creationist philosophy to the anti-Abortion militantism. Which one is more harmful? No one ever set off a bomb at an observatory for defiling Creationist philosophy.

If you had a Fundie straped in a chair and he said "I'll give up one of my beluiefs if you let me go-- Creationism or anti-Abortion militantism" which will you let him keep?

Think carefully.

Anti-Abortion Militantism is not comparable to Creationism. AAM is a radical belief that is practised by only a few people, it is part of a larger belief that is "pro-life". The pro-life movement itself, on the other hand, does not promote harmful beliefs. Creationism conversely is shared by millions of people and it openly teaches discrimination against all kinds of people. So yes, by itself, Creationism can harm someone. You don't have to introduce any new ideas to make it hateful, unlike the pro-life movement.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-25 01:23am

Creationism openly preaches discrimination?

Do tell.

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-07-25 01:29am

Not Creationism specifically, but the teachings of the Bible. Creationists are willing to ignore what logic and reason tells them in order to interpret the Bible literally. Now, as you well know, interpreting the Bible literally can lead to all sorts of nasty things. The Bible is not the best book to base a moral code on. In particular, the Bible encourages discrimination against women and homosexuals.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-25 01:30am

Stormbringer wrote:
Dahak wrote:That from a country in which creationism is running at large, a large percentage would be hard pressed to find Asia on a map, ...

I doubt that your populace is in any way less retared than the rest of the world.
I admit that the US isn't perfect. But face it, you and a third of Germany are the kind of retards that want it to be true so you can justify your self rightous disdain for the US.

Could you explain precisely where Dahak stated that he actually believed the US government might have ordered 9/11?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-25 01:32am

Howedar wrote:Creationism openly preaches discrimination?

Do tell.

The Bible does, and creationism is (despite all of its idiot proponents' claims of a scientific basis) a Bible-based movement.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-25 01:34am

Coyote wrote:The belief in Creationism, by itself, is not going to harm anyone.

Neither is the belief in idiotic conspiracy theories, unless you count the threat to democracy posed by widespread ignorance and irrational thinking among the voting populace.

If you had a Fundie straped in a chair and he said "I'll give up one of my beluiefs if you let me go-- Creationism or anti-Abortion militantism" which will you let him keep?

Think carefully.

That point would be more powerful if it was in some way related to the discussion topic, which is a bunch of conspiracy theorist kooks in Germany, not violent anti-abortionists.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-25 01:51am

Darth Wong wrote:
Howedar wrote:Creationism openly preaches discrimination?

Do tell.
The Bible does, and creationism is (despite all of its idiot proponents' claims of a scientific basis) a Bible-based movement.

Correct. Creationism is a largely Bible-based movement. However, IMHO claiming that Creationism by necessity "openly teaches discrimination against all kinds of people" is kinda pushing it.

I really don't feel like making yet another Howedar vs Darth Wong social issue flamefest out of this, so can we just drop it now?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-25 01:55am

Howedar wrote:Correct. Creationism is a largely Bible-based movement. However, IMHO claiming that Creationism by necessity "openly teaches discrimination against all kinds of people" is kinda pushing it.

You are exaggerating. No one said that creationists MUST be bigots as well, but I think you and I both know perfectly well that if you take all of the people in the country who think atheists have no morality or who advocate laws designed to punish people for violating their sexual mores (particularly gays) and then compare that group to the creationists, you will find a rather striking correlation.

I really don't feel like making yet another Howedar vs Darth Wong social issue flamefest out of this, so can we just drop it now?

If you wanted to drop it, you could have simply dropped it instead of trying to make one last argument and then telling me not to post in response.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-25 02:41am

I was trying to explain my position. But regardless, this shall be my last post on the matter.

And I mean it this time.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-07-25 03:37am

I personally think that this thread would have been much more productive had the article actually stated, in explict detail, why so many germans believe that the U.S. Government was involved in the attacks. I would be really suprised if nothing but idiots supported this belief in the poll, for any given issue you usually have the various "intellegence" levels stratling both sides o f the isssue for various reasons.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-07-25 03:45am

Stormbringer wrote: Only a retard could possibly believe that the US government would ever allow what happened on September 11th. The idea that they did is complete bullshit and only a mushminded retard would believe it.

Keep in mind that this is the same government that would NEVER sell drugs to inner city kids to finance illegal/unconstituional actions. Cough*Iran-contra*Cough.