Hyperspace and the Conservation of Energy

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-09-16 09:31am

If a 1000 ton starship entered hyperspace, does that mean that 9*10E22 joules of energy has exited the universe? Would there be a compensating explosion of gamma rays on the point of the ship's exit? Or would energy be conserved for the simple reason that hyperspace is simply a part of the universe (even if it's not part of the "observable" universe as humans understand it)?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-16 10:13am

The second part, Hyperspace for lack of a better deffintion is a VERY energetic demnsion where the *Speed Limit is much muuuuuuuuuuuuch higher than in this place, Thusly more energy prehaps? Slighty diffrent laws when it comes to that sort of thing? Or just they some-how able to take advantage of *Borrowing whereby energy can come from nothing however the greater the amount of energy the faster it has to be payed back, So far its only observed at the Quantum level but prehaps they figured out how to manfest it on the Macro?

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-09-16 10:18am

Rathark wrote:If a 1000 ton starship entered hyperspace, does that mean that 9*10E22 joules of energy has exited the universe? Would there be a compensating explosion of gamma rays on the point of the ship's exit? Or would energy be conserved for the simple reason that hyperspace is simply a part of the universe (even if it's not part of the "observable" universe as humans understand it)?

Dunno, s'probably kwantum.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-16 11:10am

That's the problem with CoE. Does it apply to the universe? Or all the attached dimensions as well? Or maybe just the Multiverse, where all possibilities exist?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-16 11:23am

no

unjustified comment.

The 'window' required to enter hyperspace just makes a mockery of normal physics.

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-09-17 12:07am

SirNitram wrote:That's the problem with CoE. Does it apply to the universe? Or all the attached dimensions as well? Or maybe just the Multiverse, where all possibilities exist?

By definition, the Multiverse would be truly infinite. That makes the CoE seem almost arbitrary once planes are crossed.

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-09-17 07:10am

The 'window' required to enter hyperspace just makes a mockery of normal physics.

normal physics?..

hmm not to mention the amount of energy required to bend space in such a way shown (i.e. like the maw of wormhole)

you never know.. someone might officialise some pretty ridiculously high power generation figure on this.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-17 11:32am

Rathark wrote:
SirNitram wrote:That's the problem with CoE. Does it apply to the universe? Or all the attached dimensions as well? Or maybe just the Multiverse, where all possibilities exist?
By definition, the Multiverse would be truly infinite. That makes the CoE seem almost arbitrary once planes are crossed.

It does. But the other option.. That CoE is violatable under exotic circumstances... is hardly superior.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2002-09-17 01:59pm

To the first...

CoE should not be able to be violated. So, there must be some sort of conservation of energy.

The simplest idea, to me, is that an amount of energy equivelent to the energy of the starship is transferred from hyperspace to normal space, with the reverse reaction occurring when the ship exits hyperspace.

Now, what form the transferred energy takes, I won't even try to speculate on. However, I would bet that it is detectable to Imperial and Rebel scanners (military-grade, at least).

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-09-17 05:33pm

The whole things snacks of the Black hole thermodynamic problem..
When matter or energy is swallowed by a black hole, is the information ( energy) lost to the Universe...

Physicist like Steve ( the Wheelchair) Hawking and Horne, are pondering the the Question with a different answer being produce every 3 months....

We most assume that Hyperspace is part of our Universe, and can be classified as an extra dimension... So energy or matter that is shunted into it, is lot lost....

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2002-09-20 11:42am

omegaLancer wrote:The whole things snacks of the Black hole thermodynamic problem..
When matter or energy is swallowed by a black hole, is the information ( energy) lost to the Universe...

Physicist like Steve ( the Wheelchair) Hawking and Horne, are pondering the the Question with a different answer being produce every 3 months....

We most assume that Hyperspace is part of our Universe, and can be classified as an extra dimension... So energy or matter that is shunted into it, is lot lost....

I thought that it wasn't lost, that it was converted and added to the mass of the black hole...

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-09-20 08:08pm

greenmm Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:42 am Post subject: Re: A very similar problem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by omegaLancer:
The whole things snacks of the Black hole thermodynamic problem..
When matter or energy is swallowed by a black hole, is the information ( energy) lost to the Universe...

Physicist like Steve ( the Wheelchair) Hawking and Horne, are pondering the the Question with a different answer being produce every 3 months....

We most assume that Hyperspace is part of our Universe, and can be classified as an extra dimension... So energy or matter that is shunted into it, is lot lost....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought that it wasn't lost, that it was converted and added to the mass of the black hole

wish it was as simple as that.....

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-20 08:33pm

adam warlock wrote:normal physics?..

hmm not to mention the amount of energy required to bend space in such a way shown (i.e. like the maw of wormhole)

Except that it's not a wormhole.

you never know.. someone might officialise some pretty ridiculously high power generation figure on this.

Maybe it might be as high as a few megatons if you work at it. The combined energies of TWO jump systems being released (when Sheridan destroyed a Shadow crab by opening a jumpgate inside an existing jumpgate) was enough to kill one crab when it detonated right on top of it, but not enough to kill a Whitestar at relatively close range.

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-09-21 04:47pm

hmm not to mention the amount of energy required to bend space in such a way shown (i.e. like the maw of wormhole)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Except that it's not a wormhole.

the operative word being "like"...
the process (as clearly shown) causes the formation of a stable but severe and deep indentation in space at the end of which is a tear/hole that acts as an entrance from real space entrance into another universe.

Maybe it might be as high as a few megatons if you work at it. The combined energies of TWO jump systems being released (when Sheridan destroyed a Shadow crab by opening a jumpgate inside an existing jumpgate) was enough to kill one crab when it detonated right on top of it, but not enough to kill a Whitestar at relatively close range.

In that episode you should have noticed that..

the whitestar was already speeding away after leaving hyperspace, even before it initiated the entry jump point within the still active jumpgate exit point. It also proceeded to accelerate to a faster speeds just before the whole set up (jumpgate) blew (along with the crab), and continued to after...
with engines on max the whitestar can reach up to speeds of 0.18c-0.2c (demonstrated in the episode "messages frome earth")..

a wave of energy originating from the explosion was still able to catch up and shake around the whitestar...
considering that in 2 seconds the whitestar, at near full speed, would have travelled in excess of 0.3c distance = 8.4e7m = 84,000,000m
(though the escape from the blast wave scene lasted more than 5 seconds)

assuming energy to spread out spherically we have a surface area of 8.87e15m2

even assuming the whitestar to be have experienced 1gigajoule of energy per m2 (after all it was shown to easily take repeated hits from thunderbolts whose firepower shouldnt be so much lower than that of nials).. its rear surface area of 120m x 60m = 7200m2
total energy absorbed by rear section = 7.2e12J

total energy release by explosion.
(8.87e15m2 / 7200m2) x 7.2e12J = 8.87e24J

so thats two jump points, each one requiring ~4.5e24Joules of energy using above data/method, and assuming 100% efficiency.

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-09-21 05:04pm

, and assuming 100% efficiency.

meant that all energy from the opening of jump points went into the wave exp by the whitestar..

grr.. last post definitely packing my computer to go royal holloway college.

bye.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-22 05:18am

adam warlock wrote:the process (as clearly shown) causes the formation of a stable but severe and deep indentation in space at the end of which is a tear/hole that acts as an entrance from real space entrance into another universe.

And you feel that is like a wormhole? Oh dear ...

a wave of energy originating from the explosion was still able to catch up and shake around the whitestar... considering that in 2 seconds the whitestar, at near full speed, would have travelled in excess of 0.3c distance = 8.4e7m = 84,000,000m (though the escape from the blast wave scene lasted more than 5 seconds)

Do you have screenshots showing the Whitestar this far away from the blast, or do you have only this claim about its maximum speed which is then used to work forward to an estimated range )based on an assumption of maximum available speed immediately after coming out of the jumpgate and activating its own jump engines), rather than observing the incident directly?

assuming energy to spread out spherically we have a surface area of 8.87e15m2. even assuming the whitestar to be have experienced 1gigajoule of energy per m2 (after all it was shown to easily take repeated hits from thunderbolts whose firepower shouldnt be so much lower than that of nials).. its rear surface area of 120m x 60m = 7200m2
total energy absorbed by rear section = 7.2e12J

A 4 megaton blast is only 5 GJ/m^2 at 500 metres, and that was enough to destroy a Sharlin. I don't see why we should pick this 1 GJ/m^2 figure out of thin air for a Whitestar that was "shaken but not stirred", never mind that range figure of yours.

total energy release by explosion.
(8.87e15m2 / 7200m2) x 7.2e12J = 8.87e24J

If jumpgates are this energetic, why are there no atmospheric interactions when one is opened in an atmosphere, which we have seen?

Any incident which occurs in an atmosphere provides a limiting factor; atmospheres have a way of transferring various energies (EM, kinetic, etc) into other forms which happen to be HIGHLY visible.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-09-22 10:33am

Would it not be logical to conclude the following:

1 - The movement of energy and matter into hyperspace doesnot violate conservation of energy anymore then the movement of matter and energy into another room does. The total amount of matter and energy still exists, merely its location has been altered

and

2 - The act of moving the fabric of space requires energy and thus draws energy so the energy expended to deform space-fabric in any way remains in the fabric of space, seeing as how even that is an object although an impercievable one (analogous to two-dimensional beings living on a plane yet unable to see the plane because theyre ontop of it)

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2002-09-23 01:22pm

kojikun wrote: 1 - The movement of energy and matter into hyperspace doesnot violate conservation of energy anymore then the movement of matter and energy into another room does. The total amount of matter and energy still exists, merely its location has been altered

I think that's true if what we're talking about is a classic wormhole, i.e. just a very distorted (by artificial or natural means) region of our universe. That's not really hyperspace as seen in B5, though. The impression I get there is that hyperspace and real space are two separate spaces rather than one being a distortion in the other.
Since the two are not normally connected, they are thermodynamically separated (radiation doesn't randomly appear in the B5 universe from hyperspace, and vice versa - transfers have to be forced). I'd say therefore that energy is not conserved in either universe considered as separate systems. As a totality, one will gain what the other loses, so energy is conserved on that level, but since the two do not appear to interact aside from artificial gates and entry points, it doesn't make a difference. The mass-energy contents of the two separate universes will change as ships enter and leave.

2 - The act of moving the fabric of space requires energy and thus draws energy so the energy expended to deform space-fabric in any way remains in the fabric of space, seeing as how even that is an object although an impercievable one (analogous to two-dimensional beings living on a plane yet unable to see the plane because theyre ontop of it)

Spacetime as a medium is extremely stiff (I may look out the exact figure tomorrow). I seem to recall a rather high power of ten was involved. As for "storing energy" in spacetime, I'm not really sure about that. What do you mean by that? Do you mean that a planet's mass-energy could be considered to be "stored" in spacetime?

Dead on Arrival · Post by **Dead on Arrival** » 2002-09-24 02:03am

If jumpgates are this energetic, why are there no atmospheric interactions when one is opened in an atmosphere, which we have seen?

The resulting effect was from two jump points interacting with each other, and in "Messages from Earth" the opening of a jump point in Jupiter's atmosphere caused a very visible reaction.

Incidentally, can you please explain how you are deriving an intensity that destroyed the Black Star when the Black Star wasn't destroyed by the EM-release of the nukes?

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-09-24 11:35am

And you feel that is like a wormhole? Oh dear ...

then care to enlighten us what real phenomena should be "compared" to jump points...
my point was comparing the appearance of the space distortion outside and along the jump point corridor to descriptions of what space should be like around the near vicinities of enlarged and stabilised wormholes (or even massively dense bodies such as blackholes/gravstars). wormholes that rather than allow travel from one region of space into another (with regards to what jump points actually do, and what hyperspace is. i.e. another universe) allows travel into another universe.

http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~f93jojo/sidan2.htm

http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schww.html

Do you have screenshots showing the Whitestar this far away from the blast, or do you have only this claim about its maximum speed which is then used to work forward to an estimated range )based on an assumption of maximum available speed immediately after coming out of the jumpgate and activating its own jump engines), rather than observing the incident directly?

no screenshot..
but just before the explosion occured there was a scene of the whitestar speeding away towards the screen/below viewer, and the jumpgate was nowhere near in sight.

as i have said in "messages from earth" we were clearly shown the whitestar travelling from ganymede to jupiter in under 20-30seconds. speed calculations resulting between 0.13 - 0.2c.

ganymede orbit stated on.
http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets ... ymede.html

(average speed) v = 1,070,000,000m/30s
= 3.57e7ms-1 = 0.13c

i also rewatched the scene in matters of honour, the scene actually took up 20s from the moment sheriden ordered lennier to initiate the jump gate sequence (shouting "punch it!" where we are immediately treated to a view of the whitestar speeding away from the jumpgate+jumppoint towards screen above viewer).

giving us a much higher value (using 1gigajoule per metre square) for the energy.. ie.

4 x pi x (0.13c x 20s)^2 x 1e9Jm-2
= 6.66e27J

energy per jump point = 3.33e27J

it takes 20mins (= 1200s) for jump engines to charge so
Power generation = 3.33e27J/1200s = 2.77e24Watts

also consider the kinetic energy of the whitestar (assuming it to weigh 3-4 times that of a modern warship/carrier considering its size (given http://warlock.isnnews.net/resources/si ... index.html)

assuming it to have a mass of 200,000 tons or 2e9kg we have a k.e at high speeds of

1/2 x 2e9kg x (0.13c)^2 = 1.32e24Joules

If jumpgates are this energetic, why are there no atmospheric interactions when one is opened in an atmosphere, which we have seen?

note that in that particular incident/manuver, one jumppoint was an exit, and another one was an entrance point, i.e. opposite directions. though my instinct tells me that there shouldve been a form of cancellation that shouldve nullified both jump points, the observed result says otherwise. Perhaps putting jumppoints of completely opposite directions to eachother caused complete destabilisation of both, that resulted in such an energy release.

Any incident which occurs in an atmosphere provides a limiting factor; atmospheres have a way of transferring various energies (EM, kinetic, etc) into other forms which happen to be HIGHLY visible.

the atmosphere offered little to disrupt the forces/energies keeping the wormhole stable...

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-09-24 11:47am

A 4 megaton blast is only 5 GJ/m^2 at 500 metres, and that was enough to destroy a Sharlin.

i leave this for others to tackle.

I don't see why we should pick this 1 GJ/m^2 figure out of thin air for a Whitestar that was "shaken but not stirred", never mind that range figure of yours.

out of thin air?...
well i could just as easily use derived figures for nial firepower shown in "meditations in the abyss" and make that famous claim "that because minbari arent that much more advanced than ea", firepower from a thunderbolt shouldnt be that much less.

or how about that particular firepower displayed by a tbolt against a vorlon fighter..

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-09-25 07:19pm

Clays Ghost:

As far as I know, theres no law of physics which states that two systems must be connected constantly for each to be considered "open".

And I never said stored in spacetime blah blah blah. You misinterpret me. Reread what I wrote.

The energy used to warp space, would, ofcourse, have to go somewhere. If space can be warped, the warpage would remain in space as ripples. Depending on whether things like LIGHT or GRAVITY are results from such ripples or not, the opening of a wormhole, or any change in the shape of space, would result in either light of equal energy, gravity of appropriate strength, or both.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-09-26 01:08pm

Oh dear oh dear... Adam, go back to school. Now. If you think Wormholes are visible as swirling colours, you are either massively underequipped knowledge wise, or toking the whacky weed(If you are, share, dammit).

A wormhole is black. Invisible, really, to the naked eye. Why? Oh, it's simple, really. It's a pair of black holes that have gotten stuck together.

As for your whine about needing something to compare a JumpGate to, you can't find one. Deal. A jumppoint is a gateway into another dimensional set.. And we don't have those here in reality(Unless you believe in magic...).

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2002-10-22 04:58pm

All the laws of physics which apply to our universe also apply to hyperspace, including conservation of momentum. Hyperspace is simply the existing universe mapped onto a smaller scale, so although your ships travel at the same speed they always would, they are travelling over a smaller area and so arrive at there location faster. Also when travelling from one realm to the other, they exit at the same rate they were travelling as when they entered.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-10-22 05:43pm

Soal: thats B5 hyperspace. StarWars hyperspace is more like a part of the universe (either up or down in 4d) that has a much higher speed of light. or a linear energy-speed ratio

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