Immortal Brain

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-07-24 02:28am

Ok, I've seen a few threads (not lately) about how immortality is impossible with cybernetic implants, because no matter how new and shiny your cyborg body is, your brain still decays. And I agree with that, because from what I know, neural tissue is the ONLY kind of tissue that doesn't "replicate" once it has fully grown (once we get our peak, don't know what age but it's childhood I think, the amount of neural tissue never increases, it only dies, specially if you kill it with drugs and alcohol)

If you make a cybernetic brain, with neural paths and whatever, and "transmit" your memories and intelligence, you're simply making a mental clone of you, maybe with your exact same thoughts - maybe even could be considered alive. But you will still be you, and will die, and while knowing there's a duplicate of yourself alive and happy could be comforting, it doesn't change the fact that you're not.

But what would happen, say, if science managed to create an artificial kind of neural tissue (with the same potential of a real brain) that can even interact with your own brain - say you're implanted some kind of unobtanium-fiberoptic mesh interlaced with your brain, and it copies part of your pathways, and whenever some part of the real brain dies or fails then you "switch" to the new brain part. (as a natural part of learning or recovery, just like when you have a stroke, in some cases an "unused" part of the brain starts learning how to walk agan)

Basically it would be like having a larger brain for a while, slowly decomposing because of age and leaving only the artificial one in the end - which you could upgrade later anyway. The artificial tissue would have more endurance and reliability than the old (not a statement of fact, but an assumption that that is the goal).

At which point would you consider that the older "you" ceased to exist? I mean if even during the time both parts are functional, you can use either one for thought processes seamlessly.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-24 02:34am

if you slowly replace, neuron by neuron, your brain with a computerised replica, then your consciousness goes uninterupted, and thus youre NOT just mentally cloning yourself, but transfering your mind.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-07-24 02:43am

kojikun wrote:if you slowly replace, neuron by neuron, your brain with a computerised replica, then your consciousness goes uninterupted, and thus youre NOT just mentally cloning yourself, but transfering your mind.

That is exactly why being turned into a cybertenic being is one of the most terrible things that can happen to a individual.

Cybertentics does not hold the key to immortality. Biology and genetic engineering does. Humans grow old and eventualy die because their cells are programmed to stop dividing after a certain amount of time. There is a cure though. Experiments on individual cells have shown that it is possible to rewrite the DNA so this does not happen. If this is done we can create humans who will never age.

Of course this has a great sideeffect. The new super race humans will replace us. Many people won't like the idea. But I have no problem with superior human beings as long as we are not being killed by them. The two races can coexist for a period of time untill the new superior race naturaly replaces us as more and more people wants geneticaly engineered babies.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-07-24 03:20am

That's all very interesting but I'm not discussing the political or social repercussions of the deal. Just about whether it would still be, as people say with mental clones, that you're just making a copy and dying afterwards.

I'm only interested in immortality if it can be applied to already living beings, not "future generations", so the New Race argument is moot.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-07-24 03:22am

kojikun wrote:if you slowly replace, neuron by neuron, your brain with a computerised replica, then your consciousness goes uninterupted, and thus youre NOT just mentally cloning yourself, but transfering your mind.

Of course, chemical reactions and things like endorphins would have to be simulated somehow if we want to retain emotion... and they would have to be part of the hardware, not "software" because all the software is naturally ocurring thought processes.

I agree with you tho.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-24 10:06am

evilcat4000 wrote:That is exactly why being turned into a cybertenic being is one of the most terrible things that can happen to a individual.

Uhm.. what now? What are you talking about?

Slartibartfast wrote:Of course, chemical reactions and things like endorphins would have to be simulated somehow if we want to retain emotion... and they would have to be part of the hardware, not "software" because all the software is naturally ocurring thought processes.

The only thing that needs to be simulated is neurotransmitter levels and such, really. No fancy neuron simulators or anything, just numbers tracking transmitter movement.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-07-24 12:25pm

kojikun wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:That is exactly why being turned into a cybertenic being is one of the most terrible things that can happen to a individual.
Uhm.. what now? What are you talking about?

I think evilcat has a philosophical objection to being turned into an android through a slow and very extended process, upon which he will no doubt elucidate.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-07-24 02:00pm

evilcat4000 wrote:<snip>

If from what I've read before is true, you can undergo gene therapy/treatment for your telemeres (the things that add onto the ends of your DNA and fucks it up which is a major cause of aging) after you're born. So much for the supermen.

No matter what, you're gonna die one day. Reproducing cells are still subject to the law of entropy. You'd need to periodically have anti-age treatments, like how you would have to maintain your car no matter how well built it is.

I must say that I would not mind being 70 and having the body of a 35 year-old. Though I'd like to die naturally one day...

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-07-24 02:27pm

Since the cells that make the brain don't reproduce, any telomere therapy would be pointless as the brain would still die off eventually.

That and removing the telomere inhibition means cancer is now a very big problem with every cell now being immortal.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-24 03:24pm

actually, valdemar, new studies have shown that animals givin teloerase therapy have LOWER number of cancer instances.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-07-25 12:31am

evilcat4000 wrote:
kojikun wrote:if you slowly replace, neuron by neuron, your brain with a computerised replica, then your consciousness goes uninterupted, and thus youre NOT just mentally cloning yourself, but transfering your mind.

That is exactly why being turned into a cybertenic being is one of the most terrible things that can happen to a individual.
I don't think so, I think maybe something like transporters which creates a clone of yourself which isn't really the original you, like two identical coins is bad but I wouldn't mind this extending my life, since it really is me

Cybertentics does not hold the key to immortality. Biology and genetic engineering does. Humans grow old and eventualy die because their cells are programmed to stop dividing after a certain amount of time. There is a cure though. Experiments on individual cells have shown that it is possible to rewrite the DNA so this does not happen. If this is done we can create humans who will never age.

It sounds nice, but wouldn't it be banned pretty quick since we are already overpopulated and killing each other sometimes because of it, because we need food or to live. Guess you'd have to be the scientist who discovered it and keep it a secret, what about just extending your life span to say 120-130 years? And what about metabolism, what tells that to slow down as you age, I mean how does it happen? Are they programmed to slow down eventually?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-07-25 12:01pm

kojikun wrote:actually, valdemar, new studies have shown that animals givin teloerase therapy have LOWER number of cancer instances.

Source?

My new studies from a month ago in New Scientist and others show telomerase to be a very big carcinogen if used and also the target of new anti-cancer therapies, it's quite obvious that if telomerase is on all the time then cells left unregulated will pose cancerous threats. I'm talking about full telomerase usage to make immortality, not the more widely used but well regulated method some organisms use. However, if you have something about other organisms being able to control this whilst still having what is essentially immortality, then let me know, I'd be interested in having such info. for next term at uni during my Part IIA genetics course.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2003-07-25 05:05pm

Personally, I wouldn't mind driving the moving van to a new universe in 10^30 years or so, and this seems to me like the best way to do it. I mean, I'll take extended life however I can get it, but I'd like to move to a more rigorous medium (or media) eventually.

Anyway, a transfer in which both the new brain material and the old brain are the same conciousness, as you described, is the right way to go with this, in my opinion. And if we can get rid of a few commas on the way, that would be cool too.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-25 06:53pm

Of-course cybernetics isn't the way to go. Vampirism is.

otherwise, from what I have read, we ain't gonna be truly immortal anytime in the near future. But, if we figure out a way to extend my life another 200 years, that 200 more years for them to figure out how to make me immortal.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-25 07:00pm

Shrykull, it ISNT you. its just someone who thinks exactly like you. You are not your thoughts, you are the entity thats continued with an uninterrupted consciousness in the same body. When you die, he lives, and you wont still be living. You will die as you normally would, YOU, shrykull, would cease to be, and a mere clone, a copy, would live. Not you.

And I don't think biotechnology will, in the long run, prove the best option. We're still too mortal, and immortality will be hell on the body. We may be able to last for a few hundred years, assuming telomerase therapy, but our bodies will wear out eventually.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-07-25 07:28pm

Well machines still wear out too, you'd need maintenance still.

But today I'd take an organic body over a metal one anyday, show me a manmade version of the human heart that does what it does for the best part of a century with nary a spot of tinkering and I'll consider it.

Besides, as cool as it would be for a while, who wants to be a damn machine anyway?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-25 08:53pm

true enough. but machines are easier to repai, and eventually machines WILL be as reliable as biological organs.

Crazy Goji · Post by **Crazy Goji** » 2003-07-25 09:43pm

I want to be a robot. That'd be cool, if you really think about it. Be nearly invulnerable, not having to worry about breathing, sleeping, eating, and you get machine gun hands. Who wouldn't want machinegun hands?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-25 10:22pm

yep. we could literally become like the minds in Banks novels

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-26 12:35am

My Adrian Barbo-bot gets buzzsaw hands. BZZZZZZZ. Eat it bitch.

As for becoming minds, I don't think so, yet, first you gotta get people loosened up to the whole trillion person orgy idea. Then we can have some minds.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-26 01:41am

Dark Hellion wrote:My Adrian Barbo-bot gets buzzsaw hands. BZZZZZZZ. Eat it bitch.
As for becoming minds, I don't think so, yet, first you gotta get people loosened up to the whole trillion person orgy idea. Then we can have some minds.

oh pish, thats THEIR problem, not us transhumanists.

all it takes is one digitized mind to spawn a million more

SHODAN · Post by **SHODAN** » 2003-07-26 02:52am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:who wants to be a damn machine anyway?

Enjoy your trivial existence while you can.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-26 04:22am

What about....

cloning new, "mindless" brains and downloading the consciousness and memories from your previous brain into the new clone brain, then insert the cloned brain into the robotic body?? I know it sounds silly, but it has been suggested.

However, even I doubt the plausibility of this - it assumes that you can upload and download a soul.

SHODAN · Post by **SHODAN** » 2003-07-26 10:30am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:What about....

cloning new, "mindless" brains and downloading the consciousness and memories from your previous brain into the new clone brain, then insert the cloned brain into the robotic body?? I know it sounds silly, but it has been suggested.

You would just be copying the data from your brain. This is not a way to reach immortality since the result obviously is not you.

However, even I doubt the plausibility of this - it assumes that you can upload and download a soul.

Soul?

I hope you're not suggesting what I think you are.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-26 10:34am

SHODAN wrote: Soul? I hope you're not suggesting what I think you are.

Raëlian?