Homeschooldebate.com

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-27 01:43am

Does it strike anyone as ironic that there's a website called "homeschooldebate.com" which does not really allow debate?

Most people who try to argue in favour of homeschooling use arguments like "homeschoolers score higher on SATs". However, this argument ignores the fact that there is a large proportion of homeschoolers which has no intention of going to university and never takes the SATs at all, thus skewing the statistics.

It is the same with their other arguments; they pick and choose examples of well-educated homeschooled kids (it is certainly possible, given the right parents), and generalize to conclude that all homeschooled kids are actually better off. However, the fact remains that most people who homeschool their kids don't do it to teach their kids more; they do it to teach their kids less. Specifically, they do it to keep their kids away from "dangerous influences".

The funny thing about homeschooldebate.com is that they simply prove the point, that while not 100% of homeschoolers are rabid fundie idiots, most of them still are.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-07-27 01:48am

Mike, perhaps you should make an open challenge to the "debate team" and make complete asses out of them. That would be quality.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-07-27 02:17am

I can only speak for Pittsburgh, but here, homeschoolers always were strictly average. Granted that they scored better, on average, than the kids who only went to school because they had to and such didn't take it seriously or do any work. On the other hand, they are strictly average compared to the middle tier students in the schools and were crushed by the AP students (and that's not much of an exaggeration, the AP Students in Pittsburgh Public whipped the homeschoolers in the district on standardized testing).

But these particular homeschoolers, on that message board, seem to be of the variety that have been pulled from school because of stuff like sex ed or that the biology text books don't have the parts about evolution censored.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-27 02:26am

Gil Hamilton wrote:I can only speak for Pittsburgh, but here, homeschoolers always were strictly average. Granted that they scored better, on average, than the kids who only went to school because they had to and such didn't take it seriously or do any work. On the other hand, they are strictly average compared to the middle tier students in the schools and were crushed by the AP students (and that's not much of an exaggeration, the AP Students in Pittsburgh Public whipped the homeschoolers in the district on standardized testing).

That's the thing; the public shools include all manner of problem students who don't want to be there at all, and whose parents don't give a shit. The homeschooling advocates base their claims on false analogies and statistical chicanery.

But these particular homeschoolers, on that message board, seem to be of the variety that have been pulled from school because of stuff like sex ed or that the biology text books don't have the parts about evolution censored.

Most homeschooling advocates in general do it for religious reasons. I know there are exceptions, but if you look at homeschooling advocacy and religious fanaticism there is a definite and strong correlation.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-27 02:30am

Do you think there is actually a causal relationship there, or just the types of people who are religious fanatics also tend to be the types of people who would homeschool?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-07-27 02:34am

I can state my opinion based only from what I've personally seen. Those persons I know who were home-schooled fared quite well, and all went to college. The oldest is now a practicing attorney. I knew the mom, Renee, quite well, and she did teach everything from a Christian standpoint. Whether or not such would normally be the case in a given situation, I cannot say, but in Renee's case, her kids (one of whom I dated for a short while) turned out pretty well. The younger ones are still being homeschooled. Renee wrote a book on it. Here it is. Unhappily, Renee died a few years ago of cancer, so the kids' father and older sisters have taken over her job...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-27 02:37am

Howedar wrote:Do you think there is actually a causal relationship there, or just the types of people who are religious fanatics also tend to be the types of people who would homeschool?

There are two reasons to homeschool:

1) You think you can educate your children better than the public schools or even private schools can, and you can afford the enormous outlay of personal time, effort, and lost wages (which virtually guarantees that one of you must not seek employment throughout your child's entire upbringing, not just his or her early years).

2) You're a religious fanatic.

Given the magnitude of the sacrifice, the availability of private schools, the fact that most people are not really qualified to teach effectively, and the fact that the private school costs are lower than the personal and financial costs of homeschooling, it is not surprising at all that only people with a fanatical fear of "dangerous influences" would do it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-27 02:39am

jegs2 wrote:I can state my opinion based only from what I've personally seen. Those persons I know who were home-schooled fared quite well, and all went to college. The oldest is now a practicing attorney. I knew the mom, Renee, quite well, and she did teach everything from a Christian standpoint. Whether or not such would normally be the case in a given situation, I cannot say, but in Renee's case, her kids (one of whom I dated for a short while) turned out pretty well. The younger ones are still being homeschooled. Renee wrote a book on it. Here it is. Unhappily, Renee died a few years ago of cancer, so the kids' father and older sisters have taken over her job...

I have known about a half-dozen homeschoolers, and every single one of them was a fundie. Moreover, they made their reasons for homeschooling quite clear. In fact, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been homeschooled without the Christian incentive.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-27 02:42am

Going to school is more than learning how to read or write. Your first social skills are honed there. Most home schoolers are in for a shock when they enter a world where everyone isn't polite or doesn't think like you do.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-07-27 02:48am

Darth Wong wrote:I have known about a half-dozen homeschoolers, and every single one of them was a fundie. Moreover, they made their reasons for homeschooling quite clear. In fact, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been homeschooled without the Christian incentive.

I have, but it was due to severe psychological problems rather than any religious purpose. I don't know what happened to him, since his family moved away a while ago.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-07-27 03:13am

Gil Hamilton wrote: I have, but it was due to severe psychological problems rather than any religious purpose. I don't know what happened to him, since his family moved away a while ago.

I encountered homeschooler once who was an atheist and a racial seperatist. Yes, that kind of bizzare combination.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-07-27 03:18am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I encountered homeschooler once who was an atheist and a racial seperatist. Yes, that kind of bizzare combination.

I've never met that precise combination in person before. Seen it on the internet, though.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-27 03:30am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I encountered homeschooler once who was an atheist and a racial seperatist. Yes, that kind of bizzare combination.
I've never met that precise combination in person before. Seen it on the internet, though.

Arminius, I guess?? (I don't recall him stating what his religious beliefs were - but he described christianity as "insanity")

Darth Wong wrote:There are two reasons to homeschool:

1) You think you can educate your children better than the public schools or even private schools can, and you can afford the enormous outlay of personal time, effort, and lost wages (which virtually guarantees that one of you must not seek employment throughout your child's entire upbringing, not just his or her early years).

2) You're a religious fanatic.

These are the most common reasons. However, there are other reasons - for example, H.P. Lovecraft as a child was homeschooled for a period because his health was so poor that he was all but unable to attend public school.

(now that explains a lot!)

However, Lovecraft's family at least hired professional tutors.

Falkenhorst · Post by **Falkenhorst** » 2003-07-27 05:46am

In my time I've known at least 1 person who was homeschooled by his fundie parents, and he later rejected their religious idiocy when he got to the public high school. The thing is though, it seemed like when I got to high school there were alot of people who flunked or dropped out or they were just those kind of people who were in those really strange cliques, the ones who were into drugs alot and radical punk music (like ANTI-FLAG and PROPAGHANDI) and strange hairdos/body piercings and dressing like BDSM clowns, alot of them ended up in home school.

I thought that was pretty cheap, they were just looking for an excuse to get out of the regular system. There were at least 5 of them I knew about and probably a proportional number I didn't know about. You could just tell by the way they talked about it, it was like they were smugly satisfied about cheating their way into a free ride.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-07-27 06:49am

I actually knew some homeschoolers who weren't (to my knowledge) fundies. But they were total fucking retarded psycho children. Especially the little boy. They had no social skills whatsoever, and I mean whatsofuckingever. I hated them badly.

The rest of the homeschoolers I've known were religioids.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-07-27 10:45am

Darth Wong wrote: I have known about a half-dozen homeschoolers, and every single one of them was a fundie. Moreover, they made their reasons for homeschooling quite clear. In fact, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been homeschooled without the Christian incentive.

One of the guys I work with, runs payroll and used to run the shipping office, homeschooled his son. I think it is because he could not get along in school. The guy seems pretty liberal and a 'Pro-Forma" Christian (You know, says he is a christian probably because his parents were, never read the bible)

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-07-27 10:47am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I encountered homeschooler once who was an atheist and a racial seperatist. Yes, that kind of bizzare combination.

I have never personally met someone that is a home schooled racial seperatists who is an atheist but I do know a racial supremicist atheist

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-27 12:57pm

Just... Found it and had to share.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2003-07-27 01:07pm

Darth Wong wrote:
jegs2 wrote:I can state my opinion based only from what I've personally seen. Those persons I know who were home-schooled fared quite well, and all went to college. The oldest is now a practicing attorney. I knew the mom, Renee, quite well, and she did teach everything from a Christian standpoint. Whether or not such would normally be the case in a given situation, I cannot say, but in Renee's case, her kids (one of whom I dated for a short while) turned out pretty well. The younger ones are still being homeschooled. Renee wrote a book on it. Here it is. Unhappily, Renee died a few years ago of cancer, so the kids' father and older sisters have taken over her job...
I have known about a half-dozen homeschoolers, and every single one of them was a fundie. Moreover, they made their reasons for homeschooling quite clear. In fact, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been homeschooled without the Christian incentive.

--I had a friend in highschool who was home schooled. He was not religious and I don't believe his parents were either. He finished highschool equivalent education at the age of 16, but I don't think he did any more school after that.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-27 01:14pm

In fact, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been homeschooled without the Christian incentive.

Hindu incentives. Scary.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-07-27 03:14pm

Lord Poe wrote:Going to school is more than learning how to read or write. Your first social skills are honed there. Most home schoolers are in for a shock when they enter a world where everyone isn't polite or doesn't think like you do.

Exactly. School doesn't just teach you "the three R's" (a turn of phrase which is quite ironic and a testament to a very poor education system), it teaches you how a very primitive form of society works. Hell, I'm sure that you could mirror the societal development in the school system with the overall societal development of human civilization.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-27 05:43pm

School doesn't just teach you "the three R's" (a turn of phrase which is quite ironic and a testament to a very poor education system),

???

The only time I ever heard that phrase is when Ronald McDonald came to the school in 2nd grade for an enviromentally-themed program. I believe they stand for 'Reuse, Reduce, Recycle', right?

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-07-27 05:54pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
School doesn't just teach you "the three R's" (a turn of phrase which is quite ironic and a testament to a very poor education system),
???

The only time I ever heard that phrase is when Ronald McDonald came to the school in 2nd grade for an enviromentally-themed program. I believe they stand for 'Reuse, Reduce, Recycle', right?

.... HOW old are you?!??!!?

The "three R's": Readin', wRitin', aRith'matic.
They've been called that for a couple centuries in the US.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2003-07-27 05:57pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
School doesn't just teach you "the three R's" (a turn of phrase which is quite ironic and a testament to a very poor education system),
???

The only time I ever heard that phrase is when Ronald McDonald came to the school in 2nd grade for an enviromentally-themed program. I believe they stand for 'Reuse, Reduce, Recycle', right?

reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic.

School days,
Schools days,
Dear old golden rule days.
Reading and writing and 'rithmatic,
Taught to the tune of a hick'ry stick.

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2003-07-27 07:23pm

Even though it was not done for any religious reason, I am still slightly ashamed of my homeschool education.