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Vympel
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Post by Vympel »

Taking apart the SOTU speech:
It is up to Iraq to show exactly where it is hiding its banned weapons, lay those weapons out for the world to see and destroy them as directed. Nothing like this has happened.
Stephen Zunes:"UNMOVIC director Hans Blix and IAEA director Mohamed El-Baradei have expressed concerns that Iraq was not sufficiently forthcoming in some potentially key areas, though they also noted areas where there had been a high level of cooperation in some other areas. This is far short of 'utter contempt.' Similarly, their mission is far from being a scavenger hunt, given the extensive records from the eight years of UN inspections during the 1990s. It is noteworthy that the UNSCOM inspectors did not find any more hidden materials during their last four years of operations despite expanding the scope of their searches. Though these inspectors were withdrawn under pressure from President Bill Clinton in late 1998 before they could complete their job, satellite surveillance and other intelligence gathering since then has given this new round of inspections -- which have an even tougher mandate regarding the timing and extent of their searches -- a good idea of where to look and what to look for. Furthermore, they have equipment that can detect radioactive isotopes and other telltale signs of WMD development at a great distance from their source. It is noteworthy that after insisting that Iraq's four-year refusal to allow UN weapons inspectors to return was cited as grounds for an invasion, the Bush Administration has suddenly challenged the inspectors' effectiveness since they resumed inspections. Furthermore, the United States has yet to put forward any proof that Iraq currently has any banned weapons."
The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; --
Glen Rangwala , a lecturer in politics at Cambridge University in Britain: "No, they didn't. The UNSCOM January 1999 report states that there is insufficient evidence that Iraq didn't produce this volume of anthrax spores. In short, if Iraq had used its fermentors at maximal capacity from the start of the industrial production of anthrax in September 1990 until the outbreak of war, it could have produced this amount of anthrax. The production log for 1990 at Iraq's bio-weapons factory, al-Hakam, indicates that Iraq did not operate its fermentors at maximal capacity. UNSCOM was not wholly confident of the accuracy of the production log, though it never explained why. However, there is no indication -- either in UNSCOM reports or in UNMOVIC statements -- that they actually believe Iraq produced this volume of anthrax. There is, again, a very large difference between what Iraq had the potential to produce in 1990, and what it is likely that it did actually produce."

Rangwala: "This is just plain wrong. Anthrax spores produced in 1990 were in liquid slurry form. They would have deteriorated markedly by the mid-1990s. The assessment by Professor Anthony H. Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) is as follows: 'Anthrax spores are extremely hardy and can achieve 65 percent to 80 percent lethality against untreated patients for years. Fortunately, Iraq does not seem to have produced dry, storable agents and only seems to have deployed wet Anthrax agents, which have a relatively limited life." ["Iraq's Past and Future Biological Weapons Capabilities" (1998), p.13]
The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin; enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.
Rangwala: "This is plain inaccurate. The only assessment of UNSCOM in this regard was in the January 1999 report, which stated that it could not account for 460kg of casein, the growth media for botulinum toxin. That would be enough to produce 1200 litres of the toxin. The U.S. has independently claimed that Iraq had more casein, but that is not -- and has never been -- the UN's assessment."
Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.
Zunes: "This figure is far higher than most independent estimates. The former chief weapons inspector for UNSCOM stated that at least 95% of Iraq's chemical weapons had been accounted for and destroyed by 1998. With the embargo preventing the import of new materials, satellites eyeing possible sites for new production, and the return of UN inspectors, it is highly dubious that Iraq could develop an offensive chemical weapons arsenal, particularly since virtually all of their ballistic missiles capable of carrying such weapons have also been accounted for and destroyed.
U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them, despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.
Of course, Shrub neglects to mention those 16 munitions did not have chemical agents in them, nor did they ever.
From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs.
Rangwala: "The only defector who has gone public with this claim is Adnan Saeed al-Haideri. It's interesting to note that in his first press conference, he didn't make this claim at all. It was only after he was "debriefed" by an official from the Iraqi National Congress -- the group supported politically and financially by the Pentagon -- that he started making these claims."
The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb.
Zunes: "True. What the president failed to mention is that in 1998 the International Atomic Energy Agency also reported that Iraq's nuclear capability had been completely dismantled. More recently, IAEA director El-Baradei, in his January 27 report to the UN Security Council, reported there was no evidence to suggest that Iraq had resumed its nuclear program."
The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
:lol:
Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production.
:lol:
Intelligence sources indicate that Saddam Hussein has ordered that scientists who cooperate with UN inspectors in disarming Iraq will be killed, along with their families.


Rangwala: "There is absolutely no evidence for any of this. No evidence has been presented either by UNMOVIC or the U.S. to back up these claims."

Now clearly, the President's claims, the expectations of the military commanders, the repeated accusations, etc all point to the fact that there was no expectation evinced by anyone in the administration that Iraq had vast quantities of WMD, right Kast? After all, like you said, 'logically', it was all split into components- despite the claim that Iraq had authorized the use of chemical weapons to it's field commanders recently (that claim being made in February 2003)- which clearly can mean as far back as 1991 because as well all know you can use such a word in a 'geopolitical' sense, or that no such claim was made by the administration prior to the war, or that the US funneled information to UNMOVIC, which derided the information as useless.

It's crystal clear! :lol:
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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

How nice for you. In other news, all reference to WMD has been dropped from Dubya speeches.
Good politics; nothing else. It doesn’t mean we won’t find anything.
That's a fucking Lieutenant General. Do you get it now? Or was he just giving his personal opinion too?
It doesn’t change reality, Vympel. Whether or not he was disappointed that we didn’t stumble across weapons left in a very obvious location – or rather, several obvious locations – doesn’t change the facts: Iraq is a large country in which the search is nowhere near complete.
The five year intensive search claim, actually.
The reference came from a college lecture on the matter of the Second World War. The Allies were still unearthing equipment hidden away by the Third Reich even after months and years of occupation and despite what officials considered an exhaustive search of most obvious locations. The parallels with Iraq are quite clear.
The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin; enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it. Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them. U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them, despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them. From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors. Saddam Hussein has not disclosed these facilities. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them. The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb. The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production ... The dictator of Iraq is not disarming. To the contrary, he is deceiving.
As you’ve pointed out time and again, certain of these chemicals are dual-purpose. But again, there is no statement that these items are cached at any one, specific location – or even that they exist in weaponized form.

Incidentally, what, exactly, do you believe Saddam Hussein did with the chemicals he was confirmed to possess and yet whose destruction was never declared?
That's it, I've had it with this waste of time- I leave this statement to stand as evidence of your desperation.
You’re proving my point for me, Vympel. For the second time, it isn’t my fault if you feel cheated by a very personal interpretation of largely ambiguous statements.
Nice try- unfortunately, not what was being discussed. Of course, Bush did lie, repeatedly, but as you've so obviously shown, you're willing to go to fucking ridiculous lengths of redefining the English language and making up new senses for people to talk in to defend him from any such obvious uncontroversial fact.
It is your opinion that George W. Bush lied to the public. It is not confirmed fact.
Unilaterally destroyed, most likely. Not that it's up to me to provide proof of what happened to them. That's the US job.
What evidence do you place behind your faith that the weapons were indeed destroyed? Furthermore, if that were the case, why was it never properly documented?
I'm sorry, it did? Where?
See above.
Funny, that's still up for debate, and it doesn't look to favorable for you at all.
Hans Blix was still dragging weapons from the ground when he returned in December 2002. Not to mention that the United Nations Security Council sanctions failed as a whole. Based on the intransigence of its neighbors, Iraq was able to circumvent said embargoes on numerous occasions.
Of course, his opinion just advises the policy.
Irreguardless of the fact that the statement itself was an opinion.
They must be real bored.
You’ve never heard of human intelligence? It’s how people know that armies are on the move, Vympel.
Strawman. You just haven't provided any evidence of any illicit activity whatsoever.
I’ve provided a basis on which to entertain the notion.
And you will be till the end of time. Or at least as long as the media remembers.
Opinion.
Actually, it's the default position. You can't find proof for something to exist, the logical conclusion is that it does not. Of course, logic was a lost cause for you long ago.
It’s been four months. Insufficient time for proper investigation.
Well I'm sorry, but at some point, there were no satellite overlfights. It's up to you to show me when they started, where they went, for what purpose, and for how often they did. You have failed in every respect.
A logical analysis would be that the Soviet Union probably authorized satellite overflights over South Africa for some time considering the nature of the region and their security interests thereabout.
Exactly. Idiot.
You’re telling me that you honestly believe the borehole was noticeable and suspicious only on the eve of its completion?
Yeah, and recently is also a subjective term, why, just recently my grandfather turned 21.
Nice strawman. Concession accepted.
Resolution capability between 1977 and 2003, dumbass.
Satellites can still be tricked or evaded in 2003. This I’m sure you’re well aware of.
And you pray it never will be.
Didn’t I give a timeframe of one year?
Funny, where did I say this was about lies?
You claim Bush lied to the American public by somehow promising a mountain of WMD, of whose location he was precisely certain.
Funny, last time I checked that certainly qualifies as mountains. Where is it all, Kast?
Again, a great deal of it could have been precursor chemical. Hell, you’ve put forth the constant opinion that the aluminum rods referenced in the speech weren’t even used for WMD research.
Because you're the one attempting to argue they're similar. They aren't.
They are absolutely. The South African case was one instance in which satellites and human intelligence didn’t discover something quite obvious. Iraq could easily fit the same mould.
Look in the dictionary, you idiot.
Did it ever occur to you that George W. Bush would be well within reasonable limits to declare a nuclear program “active” or “ongoing” on the basis of intercepted discussion of material or monetary transfers alone?
So what? You've already conceded that inspectors would be better equipped to find such a thing, you've got no evidence of african national congress spies
Inspectors would have been better equipped … but then, of course, they spent two months after a four year lull.

You’re free to keep the opinion that human intelligence wasn’t active in South Africa during the war with Angola and the Front Line States. It is, of course, willful ignorance.
sitting in the middle of the desert watching roads leading to miltiary bases, no reasoning as to why a satellite should discover such a thing immediately considering you've conceded they WEREN'T EVEN FUCKING LOOKING, and you STILL try and use it as an analogy with an almost decade long intesive inspections process?
They don’t need to sit in the middle of desert roads. They need to notice – at some point along the route – a great deal of military traffic.

Did I concede that they weren’t looking? Certainly, if there were satellite overpasses in 1975, there should have been similar inspections in 1975. The geopolitical situation hadn’t changed.

An analogy with a decades-long intensive inspections process that ended in 1998 and was restored for a brief, two-month period in 2003.
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Post by Vympel »

Axis Kast wrote:
Good politics; nothing else. It doesn’t mean we won’t find anything.
It does not bode well.
It doesn’t change reality, Vympel. Whether or not he was disappointed that we didn’t stumble across weapons left in a very obvious location – or rather, several obvious locations – doesn’t change the facts: Iraq is a large country in which the search is nowhere near complete.
That's not the point of the quote. That a high ranking officer expected weapons at ammunition dispersal sites (i.e. for use on the front) speaks volumes of what was expected by the administration.
The reference came from a college lecture on the matter of the Second World War. The Allies were still unearthing equipment hidden away by the Third Reich even after months and years of occupation and despite what officials considered an exhaustive search of most obvious locations. The parallels with Iraq are quite clear.
So you don't actually have a reference that there was a deliberate five year long search, do you?
As you’ve pointed out time and again, certain of these chemicals are dual-purpose. But again, there is no statement that these items are cached at any one, specific location – or even that they exist in weaponized form.
Presidential statements are crafted by word-smiths to attempt to get the President out of any bind he might encounter when something he says turns out to be bullshit. That doesn't change the obvious intent of that litany of half-truths.
Incidentally, what, exactly, do you believe Saddam Hussein did with the chemicals he was confirmed to possess and yet whose destruction was never declared?
Unilateral destruction.
You’re proving my point for me, Vympel.
Right ...
For the second time, it isn’t my fault if you feel cheated by a very personal interpretation of largely ambiguous statements.
It is an entirely unambiguous statement. Your attempt to smoke and mirror the issue and redefine the word "recently" to save your argument is not convincing.
It is your opinion that George W. Bush lied to the public. It is not confirmed fact.
Oh but it is. Except if you redefine uncontroversial words in a Clintonian manner.
What evidence do you place behind your faith that the weapons were indeed destroyed?
1. No weapons were used in the war
2. No weapons were found ready for use in the war
3. Defector testimony detailing the extent of the weapons (used by the pro war crowd) and confirmation by them that they were destroyed (not mentioned)
3. Noone has come forward with information regarding these weapons after the war
4. No scientist, official or soldier has provided evidence of these weapons either before or after the war

Furthermore, if that were the case, why was it never properly documented?
To defy the US/UN, perhaps. The unilateral disarmament was in violation of Resolution 687, IIRC. Some commentators have speculated that Iraq did this to save face among the Arab world.
See above.
Where?
Hans Blix was still dragging weapons from the ground when he returned in December 2002.
False. He found a paltry number of mustard gas shells previously tagged by UNSCOM.
Not to mention that the United Nations Security Council sanctions failed as a whole. Based on the intransigence of its neighbors, Iraq was able to circumvent said embargoes on numerous occasions.
Irrelevant to the issue.
Irreguardless of the fact that the statement itself was an opinion.
Why must it be opinion?
You’ve never heard of human intelligence? It’s how people know that armies are on the move, Vympel.
Armies on the move does not equal construction activity within a military base.
I’ve provided a basis on which to entertain the notion.
Hardly. After all, even if I were to accept your useless South Africa analogy, the Iraq situation has 2 extra years with which to find such evidence. Not to mention that despite your ridiculous idea that there was 'nothign of consequence' going on surveillance wise for four years since 1998, there undoubtedly was- UNMOVIC was given such information, and it turned out to be crap.

A logical analysis would be that the Soviet Union probably authorized satellite overflights over South Africa for some time considering the nature of the region and their security interests thereabout.
When? Looking for what, where, and how many overflights?
You’re telling me that you honestly believe the borehole was noticeable and suspicious only on the eve of its completion?
Very possible. Soviet satellite technology in the 70s is hardly American satellite technology in the late 90s.
Nice strawman.
Funny, a strawman is a distortion of the opponent's position, and your position is a blatant redefinition of the word recently.
Concession accepted.
Only in your fucked up mind can my deriding your undefining every single uncontroversial word into oblivion can you possibly call that a concession.
Satellites can still be tricked or evaded in 2003. This I’m sure you’re well aware of.
When they're looking for a specific thing on purpose? Far less likely.

Didn’t I give a timeframe of one year?
From your own statements, it appears you accept a 2-5 year period.

You claim Bush lied to the American public by somehow promising a mountain of WMD, of whose location he was precisely certain.
That's my view, but it's not what this is about, which is for the most part South Africa.

Again, a great deal of it could have been precursor chemical. Hell, you’ve put forth the constant opinion that the aluminum rods referenced in the speech weren’t even used for WMD research.
Yes, they were wrong. I have already provided evidence of what they expected to find, and where.

They are absolutely.
- No UN inspections regime, with no inspectors on the ground, no spy plane overflights, no intensive satellite surveillance
- No deliberate effort to look for NBC weapons
- No intense superpower scrutiny

Only in your mind can they be 'absolutely' similar.
The South African case was one instance in which satellites and human intelligence didn’t discover something quite obvious. Iraq could easily fit the same mould.
Only if you bullshit your way past the flimsiest of passages in fas.org and invent facts.
Did it ever occur to you that George W. Bush would be well within reasonable limits to declare a nuclear program “active” or “ongoing” on the basis of intercepted discussion of material or monetary transfers alone?
And where is this intercepted discussion and monetary transfer evidence? Hmmm? Your excuses suck.
Inspectors would have been better equipped … but then, of course, they spent two months after a four year lull.
Four months, actually.
You’re free to keep the opinion that human intelligence wasn’t active in South Africa during the war with Angola and the Front Line States. It is, of course, willful ignorance.
No, you're free to shove that strawman up your arse. You've got absolutely no basis for claiming that such humint would be even a position to observe such a thing, and the fucking obvious fact is that they weren't- how the fuck does an ANC spy get into a SADF military base?
They don’t need to sit in the middle of desert roads. They need to notice – at some point along the route – a great deal of military traffic.
Assumption: there must be a great deal of military traffic to support a two year construction effort, and this must look highly suspicious. Justify. Regardless, did it occur to you that SADF could've considered this possibility in their construction, something which unwanted spies would be vulnerable too, but which UN inspectors wouldn't be?
Did I concede that they weren’t looking? Certainly, if there were satellite overpasses in 1975, there should have been similar inspections in 1975. The geopolitical situation hadn’t changed.
Of course you conceded they weren't looking. To rebut that, go ahead, provide one shred of that thing you hate so much, evidence, to show that the Soviets were undertaking an intensive effort to search for South African WMD.
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Post by Axis Kast »

That's not the point of the quote. That a high ranking officer expected weapons at ammunition dispersal sites (i.e. for use on the front) speaks volumes of what was expected by the administration.
Expectation and stated fact are not necessarily one and the same.
So you don't actually have a reference that there was a deliberate five year long search, do you?
Apparently nothing you’d dare except. But then again, that’s largely moot. You already know that there was indeed a large-scale search underway that never did uncover the full extent of the Nazi warrens.
Presidential statements are crafted by word-smiths to attempt to get the President out of any bind he might encounter when something he says turns out to be bullshit. That doesn't change the obvious intent of that litany of half-truths.
It also doesn’t detract from that intent. There’s a difference between a lie and a half-truth. You might not stomach that easily, but it’s there nonetheless.
Unilateral destruction.
And for what reason, exactly, would they have committed themselves to unilateral destruction without documentation?
It is an entirely unambiguous statement. Your attempt to smoke and mirror the issue and redefine the word "recently" to save your argument is not convincing.
Again, we’re running into the border between half-truth and untruth. You cannot properly qualify “recent” in the context of that statement – nor provide proof of exactly how the Bush administration would define an “active” nuclear program.
Oh but it is. Except if you redefine uncontroversial words in a Clintonian manner.
No. George Bush only lied in the minds of those who blithely went to town on his statements in the first place – people like yourself, Vympel.
1. No weapons were used in the war
Logical analysis dictates that Hussein’s weapons would have been broken down into components long before Hans Blix and UNMOVIC ever entered the country. These would have been too difficult (i.e. too dangerous or obvious) to retrieve during a period of high scrutiny – much less use by a military whose loyalty was perennially unreliable.
2. No weapons were found ready for use in the war
See above.
3. Defector testimony detailing the extent of the weapons (used by the pro war crowd) and confirmation by them that they were destroyed (not mentioned)
Confirmation that was not properly documented by the government of Iraq itself.
3. Noone has come forward with information regarding these weapons after the war
Nobody has stepped forward with credible information on Saddam Hussein’s whereabouts either. He’s still out there, though.
4. No scientist, official or soldier has provided evidence of these weapons either before or after the war
See above.
To defy the US/UN, perhaps. The unilateral disarmament was in violation of Resolution 687, IIRC. Some commentators have speculated that Iraq did this to save face among the Arab world.
And yet Baghdad didn’t even try to save itself an invasion by pointing to unilateral disarmament at a time when George Bush was making much of those same stockpiles.

Anyway, I’m becoming tired of endlessly running in circles when it appears as if we’ll do this until Doomsday. That said …

None of your analysis of the State of the Union Address features anything more than the following responses:

“True, but …” Regardless of what was left out or implied, nothing untrue was published or spoken aloud as policy.

“That’s only true if you use unadulterated, high-end estimates.” It’s why the speech used the words: “… had sufficient materials … “ Again, no untruths.

“The U.S. has independently claimed something contrary to UNMOVIC.” I wasn’t aware that was a crime. Your response also ignores the “materials” aspect – which could cover dual-purpose chemicals.

“American estimates are overly optimistic (or overly pessimistic, depending on your preference).” Again, not a crime. We’re talking about possibility anyway.

“Your human sources are in question.” No proof of a lie there, either.

“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

It’s what the British government learned. Period.

“Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production.”

American analysis dictated that they might indeed have been used for crude centrifuges. No lies.

“UNMOVIC didn’t collaborate the stories that Saddam intimidated his people.”

Really? Is that so unusual considering that UNMOVIC was tasked with finding weapons rather than keeping tabs on Hussein’s brutalities?

As for South Africa, it’s clear you are going to extreme lengths to deviate from what was the most probable situation: despite having human intelligence in the region and as much reason in 1975 for satellite overpasses as in 1977, it seems that the pair of boreholes were (A) miraculously well-hidden, or (B) the lucky beneficiaries of a technical or analytical failure on the Soviets’ part. Either way, both dangers are inherent in the search in Iraq.
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Post by Hamel »

deanforamerica.com wrote:8/26/02 Cheney: Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us. (Remarks to VFW, 8/26/03).

9/02 Rumsfeld: Rumsfeld told Congress that Saddam’s ‘regime has amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of chemical weapons, including VX, sarin, cyclosarin and mustard gas…” (U.S. News 6/03).

9/19/2002 Rumsfeld: There are a number of terrorist states pursuing weapons of mass destruction -- Iran, Libya, North Korea, Syria, just to name but a few. But no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. (Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing Transcript, 9/19/2002)

10/06/02 Bush: Saddam Hussein could strike without notice and inflict "massive and sudden horror" on America. (AP, 10/6/02)

1/28/03 Bush: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” (The State of the Union Address, 1/28/03)

2/05/03 Powell: “Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough agent to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets.” (Remarks, UN, 2/05/03)

2/08/03 Bush: "We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons — the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." (Radio Address, 2/08/03)

3/16/03 Cheney: “We believe [Saddam] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.” (Washington Post, 5/20/03)

3/17/03 Bush: "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." (Address, DC, 3/17/03)

3/30/03 Rumsfeld: "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." (Remarks, ABC, 3/30/03)


NOW

Spring 2003 Bush official: “The Iraqis may have poured it into the ground someplace.” (Washington Post, 4/10/03; Newsday, 3/16/03)

5/04/03 Rumsfeld: "We never believed that we'd just tumble over weapons of mass destruction in that country." (Interview, Fox News, 5/04/03)

5/12/03 Rice: U.S. never expected that “we were going to open garages and find” WMDs.” (Reuters, 5/12/03)

5/27/03 Rumsfeld: "They may have had time to destroy them, and I don't know the answer."
(Remarks, Council on Foreign Relations, 5/27/03)

6/03/03 Lt. Gen. James Conway: “We were simply wrong…It was a surprise to me then, it remains a surprise to me now, that we have not uncovered [nuclear, chemical or biological] weapons [in Iraq.] …believe me, it’s not for lack of trying. We’ve been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwait border and Baghdad, but they’re simply not there.” LA Times 6/03/03.

Bush 6/16/03: “And we acted in Iraq, as well. We made it clear to the dictator of Iraq that he must disarm. We asked other nations to join us in seeing to it that he would disarm, and he chose not to do so, so we disarmed him. And I know there's a lot of revisionist history now going on, but one thing is certain. He is no longer a threat to the free world, and the people of Iraq are free.” (Remarks, 6/16/03)

7/06/03 Former Amb. Joseph C. Wilson IV: “The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government. The question now is how that answer was or was not used by our political leadership.” (Op-Ed, NY Times, 7/06/03)

7/09/03: Sen. Pryor: When did you know that the reports about uranium coming out of Africa were bogus? Rumsfeld: Well, within recent days, since the information started becoming available.

7/09/03 Bush: Q Yes, Mr. President. Do you regret that your State of the Union accusation that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Africa is now fueling charges that you and Prime Minister Blair misled the public?

“[T]here's no doubt in my mind, when it's all said and done, the facts will show the world the truth. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind. And so there's going to be a lot of attempts to try to rewrite history, and I can understand that. But I am absolutely confident in the decision I made.… One thing is for certain, he's not trying to buy anything right now.” (Remarks, 7/09/03)

7/12/2003 George Tenet and Unnamed US Officials: CIA Director George Tenet said Friday that he was responsible for President Bush’s false allegation in his State of the Union address that Baghdad was trying to buy uranium in Africa, a key part of Bush’s argument for military action in Iraq…

But U.S. officials told NBC News’ Andrea Mitchell that Tenet himself advised Rice’s top deputy, Steven Hadley, to remove a reference to the uranium report from a speech Bush delivered Oct. 7 in Cincinnati, establishing that the nation’s top intelligence officials suspected that the allegation was false more than three months before they approved Bush’s repeating it in his nationally televised address on Jan. 28… (MSNBC.com, 7/12/2003)
"Right now we can tell you a report was filed by the family of a 12 year old boy yesterday afternoon alleging Mr. Michael Jackson of criminal activity. A search warrant has been filed and that search is currently taking place. Mr. Jackson has not been charged with any crime. We cannot specifically address the content of the police report as it is confidential information at the present time, however, we can confirm that Mr. Jackson forced the boy to listen to the Howard Stern show and watch the movie Private Parts over and over again."
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Post by Iceberg »

Indeed. Before the war, the Administration's language used in its accusations against Iraq was blunt, forceful and unequivocable, giving discrete amounts and promising sure and swift results. Once the war ended, things changed and the Administration began to waffle and equivocate, claiming that it had never used the very sort of language that it had in fact used to set up its case for military intervention.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us.
The search is not yet over. Cheney is no confirmed liar quite yet.
9/02 Rumsfeld: Rumsfeld told Congress that Saddam’s ‘regime has amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of chemical weapons, including VX, sarin, cyclosarin and mustard gas…” (U.S. News 6/03).
“Large” is not necessarily mountains. There are also no specific references to the locations of said “clandestine stockpiles.”
9/19/2002 Rumsfeld: There are a number of terrorist states pursuing weapons of mass destruction -- Iran, Libya, North Korea, Syria, just to name but a few. But no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. (Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing Transcript, 9/19/2002)
Many Americans agree with the statement put forth here. They do believe that no terrorist state (within the realm of preemption, of course) poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of the United States outside Iraq.
10/06/02 Bush: Saddam Hussein could strike without notice and inflict "massive and sudden horror" on America. (AP, 10/6/02)
It was always a possibility, however remote. This is especially true if we distance ourselves from the notion of WMD use against the continental United States and focus instead on the potential dangers of Iraqi agitation in the Middle East itself.
1/28/03 Bush: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” (The State of the Union Address, 1/28/03)
The administration did indeed learn this piece of information. Dean seeks to make a mountain from a molehill.
2/05/03 Powell: “Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough agent to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets.” (Remarks, UN, 2/05/03)
Not only is this a reference to an intelligence estimate, but you’ve no additional information regarding the state or location of said munitions.
2/08/03 Bush: "We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons — the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." (Radio Address, 2/08/03)
Again, ambiguous references to “field commanders” – which, in Iraq, could even refer to régime militias -, without, I might add, any kind of timeframe other than “recently”, which could mean months or years.
3/16/03 Cheney: “We believe [Saddam] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.” (Washington Post, 5/20/03)
Have you the full quotation – without the “understood” additions?
3/17/03 Bush: "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." (Address, DC, 3/17/03)
Technically, that might mean a tank. And even if you want to put faith in this statement, you’d still be justified considering the fact that the inspection hasn’t exactly gone on for a great deal of time since the “formal” fighting ended.
3/30/03 Rumsfeld: "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." (Remarks, ABC, 3/30/03)
Great. So we can cover the whole of Iraq.
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Post by SirNitram »

I see Axis once again flaunts his ridiculous belief that People Believe It = Truth.
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Post by Axis Kast »

I see Axis once again flaunts his ridiculous belief that People Believe It = Truth.
I sure as hell believe that Iraq posed a fairly great danger to the national security interests of the United States of America. Who's to say that the politicans in Washington can't make the same determination?
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Post by SirNitram »

Axis Kast wrote:
I see Axis once again flaunts his ridiculous belief that People Believe It = Truth.
I sure as hell believe that Iraq posed a fairly great danger to the national security interests of the United States of America. Who's to say that the politicans in Washington can't make the same determination?
Do you even realize that simply saying 'Person X believes it' is an appeal to authority, and saying 'X group of people believes it' is an appeal to popularity?
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Post by Axis Kast »

Do you even realize that simply saying 'Person X believes it' is an appeal to authority, and saying 'X group of people believes it' is an appeal to popularity?
The question was whether the administration had put forth lies. Being that they held forth on a subjective issue, the answer is no. Disagreement with the reasons for war do not of its advocates make liars.
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Post by SirNitram »

Axis Kast wrote:
Do you even realize that simply saying 'Person X believes it' is an appeal to authority, and saying 'X group of people believes it' is an appeal to popularity?
The question was whether the administration had put forth lies. Being that they held forth on a subjective issue, the answer is no. Disagreement with the reasons for war do not of its advocates make liars.
:roll:
Many Americans agree with the statement put forth here. They do believe that no terrorist state (within the realm of preemption, of course) poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of the United States outside Iraq.
That was what you said. There's nothing subjective about something posing a threat. But you again put forth the idea that if enough people believe it, we should treat it as real.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Sir Nitram, you believe that the administration’s putting forth a point of view is a lie? You believe that the White House should not be able to put forth its own analysis of events? Some group or citizen somewhere will inevitably disagree. That doesn’t change the value of statements such as those of Colin Powell – where were at first essentially to the effect of: “If I were a gambling man, I wouldn’t place my faith in Iraq.”
That was what you said. There's nothing subjective about something posing a threat. But you again put forth the idea that if enough people believe it, we should treat it as real.
Of course there’s something subjective about something posing a threat. The definition of “threat” differs wildly between different persons or institutions. This is more along the lines of what I was trying to get at. I see now why you think I’m appealing to popularity, however.
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