Immortal Brain

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-26 01:46pm

I would like to make a quick definition of the self. You, or anyone, is the continuous thought processes of your mind. Discontinuity and replication do not make the end person /you/. You are only formed by nondiscontiuous thought processes.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-07-26 09:26pm

kojikun wrote:I would like to make a quick definition of the self. You, or anyone, is the continuous thought processes of your mind. Discontinuity and replication do not make the end person /you/. You are only formed by nondiscontiuous thought processes.

Exactly why if quantum teleporters were made I would object as the original is destroyed and a perfect copy made. That copy may be you in every way possible, but it won't be you in it.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2003-07-26 10:58pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
kojikun wrote:I would like to make a quick definition of the self. You, or anyone, is the continuous thought processes of your mind. Discontinuity and replication do not make the end person /you/. You are only formed by nondiscontiuous thought processes.
Exactly why if quantum teleporters were made I would object as the original is destroyed and a perfect copy made. That copy may be you in every way possible, but it won't be you in it.

I don't know; if the copy is quantum perfect, I think I'd regard it as a continuation of conciousness. Or at least, the new me would.

It's still not my first choice. Come to that, it isn't a choice at all as far as immortality goes. But anyway, there's a grey area. If you could be quantum-teleported fifty times a second and think normal thoughts...

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-27 12:07am

Sriad wrote:I don't know; if the copy is quantum perfect, I think I'd regard it as a continuation of conciousness. Or at least, the new me would. It's still not my first choice. Come to that, it isn't a choice at all as far as immortality goes. But anyway, there's a grey area. If you could be quantum-teleported fifty times a second and think normal thoughts...

There IS discontonuity. The quantum "teleporters" don't teleport jack shit. They just READ your particle states and make other particles do the exact same shit. They don't destroy the original particles, just make them move in a different direction. It literally just heats you up and makes another version of you. But its not an exact copy, because of uncertainty. You can make a copy of the state of the particle, but not its direction of motion or speed. Quantum teleportation is nonsense, it's bullshit and completely useless. It's been overhyped to seem like star trek to lure in investors with hopes of beaming objects around the world, when infact its nowhere near star trek and never will be.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-07-27 09:13pm

If you make a perfect, mollecular, quantum, treknobabble, whatever copy of youself, with all your memories, but without problems like illnesses, old age, whatever, he will definitely think HE is you, will think he simply got cured or improved in some way. But you're either alive and still the same person, or dead. And won't enjoy the extended existence or "features" your clone has.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-27 09:34pm

Slartibartfast wrote:If you make a perfect, mollecular, quantum, treknobabble, whatever copy of youself, with all your memories, but without problems like illnesses, old age, whatever, he will definitely think HE is you, will think he simply got cured or improved in some way. But you're either alive and still the same person, or dead. And won't enjoy the extended existence or "features" your clone has.

Exactly. The copy isnt you, just a copy.

Korvan · Post by **Korvan** » 2003-07-28 01:44pm

I thought you could quantumly "copy" a particle's complete state (including momentum) provided that the state of the original particle was disrupted in a non-derterminable manner (random). As far as the universe is concerned, the copy is the original particle. I've no idea how much the original particle needs to get disrupted, will the object being transported just heat up a bit, or end up as a bit pile of goo?

The problem with turing this into a practical device is that every particle needs to be scanned and transmitted simultaneously, or you'll end up with a mess at both ends. I think the best we can hope for is that we'll be able to use teleportation for power, and maybe data transmission.

More on topic, I do have a question regarding continutity of consciousness. What happens if someone's consciousness becomes discontinued for a period of time? (a temporary complete lack of brain activity) Does he wake up as a "new" person, albeit with a complete set of memories, or does the discontinuity not reallty have any effect?

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-28 02:43pm

Wouldn't it be easier to just stop the inhibitors that causes the brain to not regenerate? To me this sounds like a much simpler solution than to actually replace your brain entirely.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-28 03:19pm

Korvan wrote:I thought you could quantumly "copy" a particle's complete state (including momentum) provided that the state of the original particle was disrupted in a non-derterminable manner (random). As far as the universe is concerned, the copy is the original particle. I've no idea how much the original particle needs to get disrupted, will the object being transported just heat up a bit, or end up as a bit pile of goo?

Saying that the universe regards the copy as the original is almost true. The
copy acts exactly like the original. But the real issue here is who are YOU as
a person, are you your settings, the little rules that your mind has set out to
define your actions, or are you the person whos been thinking uninterrupted
since you were born? When you sleep, you dont cease thinking, you simply
cease knowing youre thinking (thats what consciousness is, knowledge of
ones own thoughts and perceptions). Thats the problem with quantum
teleporters, they don't move you anywhere, you still remain right where
you are, all that happens is they shine some light onto you. You are not
your quantum states, you are your uninterrupted thoughts.

The object that was copied would be heated up. The original. The end
product is a copy of the original, unchanged.

The problem with turing this into a practical device is that every particle needs to be scanned and transmitted simultaneously, or you'll end up with a mess at both ends. I think the best we can hope for is that we'll be able to use teleportation for power, and maybe data transmission.

It's a moot point anyway, because simultaneous scanning of all particles is
impossible.

More on topic, I do have a question regarding continutity of consciousness. What happens if someone's consciousness becomes discontinued for a period of time? (a temporary complete lack of brain activity) Does he wake up as a "new" person, albeit with a complete set of memories, or does the discontinuity not reallty have any effect?

I would argue that its a different person. Your thoughts ceased to be, and
thoughts make the person. Memories can be constructed, likes and dislikes
change, but they don't change you from you.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-07-28 04:05pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Besides, as cool as it would be for a while, who wants to be a damn machine anyway?

It's be really cool to be a Culture Mind, with their technology I can easily create a robotic Avatar(several, of all kinds really) that's exactly like my body.

Or if one could create a machine body thats as reliable and undistinguishable from an organic machine, I am all for it.
Atleast the partial replacing of neurons with non-biological ones I would prefer.

Korvan · Post by **Korvan** » 2003-07-28 04:32pm

kojikun wrote:I would argue that its a different person. Your thoughts ceased to be, and thoughts make the person. Memories can be constructed, likes and dislikes change, but they don't change you from you.

So, not only would you not be YOU if you were copied into a machine, the new you would cease to be every time you rebooted.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-28 05:28pm

Korvan wrote:
kojikun wrote:I would argue that its a different person. Your thoughts ceased to be, and thoughts make the person. Memories can be constructed, likes and dislikes change, but they don't change you from you.
So, not only would you not be YOU if you were copied into a machine, the new you would cease to be every time you rebooted.

Isn't that what happens when you fall asleep at night??? A biological warm-boot?

Kojikun, that is a fascinating concept you talking about...where do I find more information on it?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-28 06:03pm

Korvan wrote:So, not only would you not be YOU if you were copied into a machine, the new you would cease to be every time you rebooted.

Only if your brain was replicated. Slow transferrence of neural function,
neuron by neuron, over to a computer, does not interrupt thought, and so it
IS you on the computer.

Steven Snyder wrote:Isn't that what happens when you fall asleep at night??? A biological warm-boot?

Not quite. Sleeping doesn't shut down your entire brain. In actuallity, your
brain is MORE active while sleeping. You're just not aware of it. It's as if
your Thought Monitoring Circuit were turned off. You're still thinking, you
just don't know you're thinking. All those functions, writing to memory, etc,
are switched off, so you drop down to demiconsciousness.

Kojikun, that is a fascinating concept you talking about...where do I find more information on it?

Its a matter of identity theory. I'm in favor of continuity identity theory, the theory that Me, as a person, is the same person if I'm physically (in function) and temporally (in time) uninterrupted. The opposing theory is pattern identity theory, which says that Me is my thoughts and memories and personality. I would argue against PIT because its clear that if you make a perfect clone of me while I'm still alive, I will not change frames of reference or anything, but that someone else will have the same thoughts as me.

This is a concept I've been looking at for a very large portion of my life,
since grade 4. Back then I was contemplating how I would make myself
immortal (I swear to the gods I'm serious) and whether I am still me if I
replaced all of my body parts with robot parts, or if I cloned myself and
transferred my thoughts. I came to the conclusion that, if I did this while I
was alive, all that would happen is that there would be an exact copy of my
brain, but my brain is still my brain and I wouldn't magically shift frames of
reference. I mean, if there are two of me alive, would I perceive both
frames of reference simultaneously? How would that happen that me, a
singular consciousness, could perceive something from two bodies that
aren't connected? It would make no sense that I could, and as such I
figured you can't, you stay in the body that your thoughts are in, because
you are your uninterrupted thoughts not what you're thinking.

Now, as for other sites:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~ursa/philos/prel2.htm
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Words/c.html# ... ITY_THEORY
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mind-identity/
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/wfnetwork/ ... DTent.html

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-28 06:10pm

I'll tell you, tho, the frightening shit is when you hear that you can have the
two halves of your brain, whice are connected by the corpus collosum,
seperated so they cannot communicate with one another, and still function
normally. that is, until you close one eye, then half of your brain,
responsible for certain things like math, or object recognition, isn't getting
information, and you cant add 2+2 or identify a pencil.

Or if you get half of your brain removed, you can still function, and don't
feel like half of your brain is gone.

Thats the crazy shit.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-07-28 07:22pm

kojikun wrote:I'll tell you, tho, the frightening shit is when you hear that you can have the
two halves of your brain, whice are connected by the corpus collosum,
seperated so they cannot communicate with one another, and still function
normally. that is, until you close one eye, then half of your brain,
responsible for certain things like math, or object recognition, isn't getting
information, and you cant add 2+2 or identify a pencil.

Or if you get half of your brain removed, you can still function, and don't
feel like half of your brain is gone.

Thats the crazy shit.

Heh, I love that experiment. It shows that "self" is really just the combined processing of many other organisms. Technically, there is no one "you", defining yourself would be saying there's "you" in every living cell of your body, they just work together to give the illusion that you're a single entity.

*Head explodes*

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-28 07:29pm

exactly! but there is definitely some singular entity that results from the
sum total of your mind working. the problem, tho, is what happens when
that sum total is forced apart? what is perceived? i can say that i AM a
singular entity, but when im broken down into multiple entities what
happens to the singular entity?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-28 07:40pm

I would also venture to say that the issue of mind is also very important in
regards to death, as well as identity. If I'm the sum of my parts, what about
when there are no more parts? You know what I mean. Theory of mind is a
very important thing, yes.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-07-28 07:55pm

I intend to read those essays, they interest me now I think about it (I?).

Though it's like the T-1000 (bare with me) which is intelligent when in a total mass, the less mass in the whole, the less processing due to fewer nanomachines, like the brain. Bits of the brain die off an you lose abilities, the frontal lobe goes to sleep during excessive drinking thus removing morality from the equation, which begs the question of what we really are?

Just electrochemical processes? Certainly humbling to think such a thing, but then the organs that don't think are needed still, the brain is just a thinking organ that happens to be concious... whatever that is.

I'm going to shut-up now.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-28 08:02pm

I think /we/ as minds are the consciousness. The awareness of the world. A
person can have his frontal brain shut down by alcohol and still be /him/
can have motor functions removed and still be /him/. A person can have his
ability to recognize people shut off and still be /him/. We as minds are the
simplest consciousness, I suspect.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-07-29 03:51am

Korvan wrote:
kojikun wrote:I would argue that its a different person. Your thoughts ceased to be, and thoughts make the person. Memories can be constructed, likes and dislikes change, but they don't change you from you.
So, not only would you not be YOU if you were copied into a machine, the new you would cease to be every time you rebooted.

Basically, there's no reboot. The idea is that this brain works exactly like a normal one but is more durable. It would need a continuous power source, and the ability to last at least a few minutes on its own just like a normal one does with the lack of oxygen. Total shutdown = death... this isn't about making yourself unkillable or totally impervious to death, just stop aging - and maybe being able to get a replacement body whenever it's necessary (organic or not) but without having the problem of a brain that's still getting old and senile (and dead).

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-29 09:26am

kojikun wrote:I think /we/ as minds are the consciousness. The awareness of the world. A
person can have his frontal brain shut down by alcohol and still be /him/
can have motor functions removed and still be /him/. A person can have his
ability to recognize people shut off and still be /him/. We as minds are the
simplest consciousness, I suspect.

I tend to buy into that...

Everyday I acculmulate knowledge and experience which serves to modify my behavior. If I eat a red berry and it makes me sick I will be less likely to eat red berries in the future, if I walk by a baseball game and get hit by the ball I will be less inclined to walk by one again, if I flirt with a married woman and get lucky, I will be more likely to do it again in the future.

Eventually, if these patterns are reinforced, I become a person who hates red berries, avoids baseball games, and has a penchant for married women.

"I" still remain, the "I" has not been lost or replaced. But even so, "I" will react to situations differently now than I did before.

If I were strapped to a chair and brainwashed, subjected to knowledge and experience that changed me forever, "I" would still exist. This being said the "I" would be completely indifferent to the changes, just as it had been indifferent to the abovementioned changes. "I" doesn't take steps to eliminate the brainwashing.

So it seems logical that "I" doesn't have any memory or personality of it's own. That seems to be a product of knowledge/experience only...

Could "I" simply be a self-preservation mechanism generated by a sufficiently developed brain? It seems to me that "I" is something my brain is generating that is in charge of telling the difference between itself and it's environment. Xtians may call this a 'soul' but since it is generated by the living brain, it will perish upon death.

Again...a fascinating subject.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 01:07pm

Yes, tis a very fascinating concept. I would also make note that there are
times when you apparently aren't as fully you as you would think. Sleeping
does kind of make you not you, and yet doesn't. If you are reading a book
and become so engrossed that you cease to be aware of everything around
you, thats somewhat the same. Not to whore myself out selling Daniels
books, but the philosopher Daniel Dennet has done a great deal of thinking
about this subject, I recommend you look into his books or his center's website.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-07-30 04:15am

I just hope in the end there isn't some unidentified single cell or organ that is your "self" and replacing just that one will fuck up the whole brain or any plans of moving your consciousness elsewhere.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-30 02:07pm

Slartibartfast wrote:I just hope in the end there isn't some unidentified single cell or organ that is your "self" and replacing just that one will fuck up the whole brain or any plans of moving your consciousness elsewhere.

I doubt that could be possible. Individual cells don't do much of anything
other then act as relays: receive chemical, send pulse down cell, release
chemical. Thats a neurons life. It can't do much else.