pope plots homophobia

[Howedar]

I don't like my current Pope.

The previous one was even worse.

I didn't like him either.

The entire institution of the papacy should be abolished as an affront to human civilization.

Perhaps you should butt out of my life instead.

However, that will never happen. The world has hundreds of millions of Catholic sheep willing to defend and uphold this ridiculous archaic institution of an anointed "Holy See" or whatever the hell they call him now. And it doesn't matter how many pedophiles his organization shelters and protects.

So go shoot Cardinal Law. You won't see me arguing.

But telling me that my church is wrong and should be dissolved sounds suspiciously, well, fundie.

[Colonel Olrik]

The entire institution of the papacy should be abolished as an affront to human civilization.

together with all the organizations that try to impose religion on society, weather society likes it or not.

The world has hundreds of millions of Catholic sheep willing to defend and uphold this ridiculous archaic institution of an anointed "Holy See" or whatever the hell they call him now.

The Vatican is passing through difficulties right now, this year they were actually asking for donations so that they don't go bankrupt, Despite the billions they make with turism and by other means. However, the Catholic Church is not that bad. It has passed through its own enlightened reformation in the middle of the last century, and their good sense compared to other forms of Christianity makes them far less dangerous.

And it doesn't matter how many pedophiles his organization shelters and protects.

That's an American novel, Europe is only listening to the echos, but we can't blame solely the Vatican and the pope for sheltering the possible pedophiles within their own. The powerful, the rich, the famous and the politicians do it all the time.

[Stravo]

That's an American novel, Europe is only listening to the echos, but we can't blame solely the Vatican and the pope for sheltering the possible pedophiles within their own. The powerful, the rich, the famous and the politicians do it all the time.

Olrik, come on, I'm a Catholic and I am utterly outraged and ashamed about the pedophile priest issue. The main difference between politicians, the powerful and rich is that these are men of god claiming to be Christ's representatives on Earth. They have a much higher moral standard to live up to, particularly when they want to hold us to that standard.

And Olrik, these are not crimes against adults this is an abomination being committed against the Chruch's weakest members, the children.

[Colonel Olrik]

Olrik, come on, I'm a Catholic and I am utterly outraged and ashamed about the pedophile priest issue. The main difference between politicians, the powerful and rich is that these are men of god claiming to be Christ's representatives on Earth. They have a much higher moral standard to live up to, particularly when they want to hold us to that standard.

I'm not really into what's happening in the US, I do know that organizations that depend on their image always try to cover up fuckups.

BTW, We are having our own year of HELL in Portugal, with one of our best known TV star in jail, our most famous comediant indicted, our president of the main opposition party under phone taps and his right hand in jail, etc. All involved in the same huge pedophily case. Nowadays I don't even feel like turning on the damn TV.

And Olrik, these are not crimes against adults this is an abomination being committed against the Chruch's weakest members, the children.

Yeah, I know that.

[Howedar]

For future reference, in English a TV is turned on, not opened. Unless your TV is inside a cabinet.

[Colonel Olrik]

For future reference, in English a TV is turned on, not opened. Unless your TV is inside a cabinet.

I knew that. I'm just sleepy.

[Howedar]

LOL okay.

[Darth Wong]

I don't like my current Pope.

The previous one was even worse.

I didn't like him either.

I was actually thinking of the one in charge during WW2, since I'm told there was an incredibly short-term pope in between those. Anyway, all of the popes have historically been a waste of flesh, quite frankly. The whole notion of one man who tells an entire church and all of its members what's right and wrong is ridiculous.

The entire institution of the papacy should be abolished as an affront to human civilization.

Perhaps you should butt out of my life instead.

Cry me a river. How is it intruding into YOUR life to state an opinion on the ridiculous institution that is the papacy?

Go go shoot Cardinal Law. You won't see me arguing.

But telling me that my church is wrong and should be dissolved sounds suspiciously, well, fundie.

Bullshit. There are perfectly good reasons why the papacy is an imbecilic, irrational, archaic, undemocratic, unreasonable, unwarranted, unnecessary, worthless throwback institution to a dark age of ignorance, hatred, and stupidity. Simply having a strong opinion does not make one a fundie; what matters is whether it's based on reason or appeals to authority and dogma.

The whole idea of one anointed one who you call "holy" and who tells you what's right and wrong despite a long, sordid history of popes saying things that millions of Catholics openly disagree with (and in some cases are downright ashamed of, given the checkered history of papal announcements) should be a hint of a fucking clue that maybe you shouldn't put this asshat up on a pedestal.

[Worlds Spanner]

I'm of two minds myself.

I should mention that I was born a Catholic but my family left the Church when I was 5.

On the one hand Wong is entirely right.

On the other hand, as I have begun to study history and particularily medieval history, I have come to have a tremendous respect for the Catholic Church. As the 2000 year old defender and advocate of the Christian faith, as an organization that preserved and increased knowledge, as an organization that has done tremendous good in places.

And lots of bad shit too. But I see John Paul II as a Pope who has started to take baby steps in the right direction. He instituated reforms in Vatican II, and he has acknowledged that the Earth might not be only 10,000 years old.

It doesn't sound like much, but it's a start.

And with Catholicism alone bigger than any other religion in the world, the Papacy isn't going to go away anytime soon.

[Frank Hipper]

Vatican II was opened by John XXIII in 1962 and closed by Paul VI in 1965, more than a decade before John Paul II.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

IIRC, more than one pope in Medieval times killed people with his own hands while he was the pope. Muslims of course.

[Worlds Spanner]

Vatican II was opened by John XXIII in 1962 and closed by Paul VI in 1965, more than a decade before John Paul II.

Mmmm......change JPII to recent Popes I suppose.

I'd go and jump off a cliff now if you all hadn't already long-since disabused me of any conceit about my intelligence.

[Frank Hipper]

I'd go and jump off a cliff now if you all hadn't already long-since disabused me of any conceit about my intelligence.

Nice to have someone join the club!

[Iceberg]

IIRC, more than one pope in Medieval times killed people with his own hands while he was the pope. Muslims of course.

Julian II (Julius Della Roverre) - Michelangelo's patron - was one such warrior Pope.

[Andrew J.]

Even Catholics don't care what the Pope says anymore (this particular one, at least).

[Dark Hellion]

The main problem with the pope being villified, as Andrew J. said, is that Catholics don't listen to him. I was raised Catholic and told flat out not to listen to what church officials said, but to make up my own mind. Most of my catholic friends were told the same. Shockingly, from my experience, Catholisism is the second most secular christian sect I know of (greek orthodox are the most. Man they got churchy churches as well, and are very very friendly.)

[Darth Wong]

Catholics may not pay that much attention to what the Pope says in North America, but check out South America. They are perfectly willing to make people miserable if the Pope says so (key example: 5 year old girl and her family excommunicated because she got an abortion after being raped; after all, the Pope said abortion is wrong regardless of circumstances).

[Dark Hellion]

True, which is why I agree with you on the fact that the papacy is archaic and semi-tyranical.

[Joe]

The Pope is often an opponent of U.S. intervention overseas and the death penalty, so he's not quite as popular here as he may be elsewhere.

[Howedar]

I was actually thinking of the one in charge during WW2, since I'm told there was an incredibly short-term pope in between those. Anyway, all of the popes have historically been a waste of flesh, quite frankly. The whole notion of one man who tells an entire church and all of its members what's right and wrong is ridiculous.

Yes, there have been a great many wastes of flesh. However, there have also been Popes that were instrumental to the RCC (the one who took office after the Great Schism, for example).

Cry me a river. How is it intruding into YOUR life to state an opinion on the ridiculous institution that is the papacy?

Frankly, its like me telling a black man what being black is like.

Bullshit. There are perfectly good reasons why the papacy is an imbecilic, irrational, archaic, undemocratic, unreasonable, unwarranted, unnecessary, worthless throwback institution to a dark age of ignorance, hatred, and stupidity. Simply having a strong opinion does not make one a fundie; what matters is whether it's based on reason or appeals to authority and dogma.

I was thinking more along the lines of you intruding into my belief system and telling me its wrong and that I should change.

Perhaps more evangelical than fundie.

The whole idea of one anointed one who you call "holy" and who tells you what's right and wrong despite a long, sordid history of popes saying things that millions of Catholics openly disagree with (and in some cases are downright ashamed of, given the checkered history of papal announcements) should be a hint of a fucking clue that maybe you shouldn't put this asshat up on a pedestal.

The fact that millions of Catholics openly disagree with (and in some cases are downright ashamed of, given the checkered history of papal announcements) the papacy maybe should be a hint of a fucking clue that the Pope isn't exactly doing a lot of damage.

At any rate, to have a single united church one really needs a figurehead to look to. Saying that many past popes have been bad does not mean that the papacy is bad, unless Dubya makes the idea of a presidency bad.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Catholics may not pay that much attention to what the Pope says in North America, but check out South America. They are perfectly willing to make people miserable if the Pope says so (key example: 5 year old girl and her family excommunicated because she got an abortion after being raped; after all, the Pope said abortion is wrong regardless of circumstances).

Now now Lord Wong, I have to call you on that...

The girl was 9 years old.

[Crown]

I don't like my current Pope.

The previous one was even worse.

The entire institution of the papacy should be abolished as an affront to human civilization. However, that will never happen. The world has hundreds of millions of Catholic sheep willing to defend and uphold this ridiculous archaic institution of an anointed "Holy See" or whatever the hell they call him now. And it doesn't matter how many pedophiles his organization shelters and protects.

I agree, they should all denounce their heresy and join the real church of Christianity. The Orthodox Church.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, there have been a great many wastes of flesh. However, there have also been Popes that were instrumental to the RCC (the one who took office after the Great Schism, for example).

And how were they useful to humanity, as opposed to the institution you're talking about?

Cry me a river. How is it intruding into YOUR life to state an opinion on the ridiculous institution that is the papacy?

Frankly, its like me telling a black man what being black is like.

You're the Pope? No, you're a Catholic, and I have not said anything about what your life is like, so you can drop the strawman distortions now. I'm talking about a bad idea in a corrupt institution, and you're acting as if I kicked in the front door of your house

I was thinking more along the lines of you intruding into my belief system and telling me its wrong and that I should change.

You have tied your belief system into the impression that others have of the leader of a particular institution? How very sad.

Perhaps more evangelical than fundie.

And how is that term any more accurate? You just want to say something negative because you're lashing out and you lack a good reason to back up your position.

The fact that millions of Catholics openly disagree with (and in some cases are downright ashamed of, given the checkered history of papal announcements) the papacy maybe should be a hint of a fucking clue that the Pope isn't exactly doing a lot of damage.

Except that many more millions don't disagree with him. See the example of the little girl who was ostracized and her family virtually run out of town in South America (yes AD, I admit I got the number wrong and she was nine years old instead of five, but I think the point is still pretty strong ).

At any rate, to have a single united church one really needs a figurehead to look to.

Why?

Saying that many past popes have been bad does not mean that the papacy is bad, unless Dubya makes the idea of a presidency bad.

Except that's not why I said the papacy is bad. I said the papacy is bad because the entire idea of anointing one idiot to be presumed infallible on any issue or range of issues is idiotic. It is the very definition of a logical fallacy.

[Alyrium Denryle]

yes AD, I admit I got the number wrong and she was nine years old instead of five, but I think the point is still pretty strong ).

Your non-existant sins are forgiven.

[Howedar]

Fuck it, I'm not going to argue this one, Mike.