Pain and Physical Suffering

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 04:44pm

What about inducing pain in lower lifeforms is so immoral? I can understand
that causing psychological trauma and a host of other things would be
wrong, but at some point there are no psychological traumas, just
responses and automatic mechanisms.

So what about causing pain is immoral, outside of the psychological
trauma?

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-29 05:14pm

kojikun wrote:What about inducing pain in lower lifeforms is so immoral? I can understand
that causing psychological trauma and a host of other things would be
wrong, but at some point there are no psychological traumas, just
responses and automatic mechanisms.

So what about causing pain is immoral, outside of the psychological
trauma?

Some people have difficulty with other people's pain, they are unable to disassociate the pain that another feels, from their own. So when they see a cute little bunny rabbit in pain, they actually feel that pain themselves. Therefore when they know that someone is inflicting pain on something else, it is hurting them, and so it is immoral.

At least that is how I see it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-29 06:52pm

Simple empathy is a common human trait, and by its nature it tends to extend to any creature which seems vaguely related to us (dogs, for example, can make humans give them stuff by simply looking at us with their sad eyes).

People who lack empathy for animals often lack empathy for people too, and in fact, childhood mistreatment of animals correlates strongly with violent criminal tendencies as an adult. Most serial killers were abusive to animals as children.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 06:57pm

yes, but what about pain itself is bad? why is it that we consider pain a bad thing?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-29 07:11pm

Because it is unpleasant.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-07-29 07:14pm

Golden Rule anybody...

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-07-29 07:32pm

Cos it implies a worry of non-survival.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-07-29 07:40pm

kojikun wrote:yes, but what about pain itself is bad? why is it that we consider pain a bad thing?

Because it HURTS, damnit!

It's uncomfortable... there's a reason why torturing people involves pain, and last I checked, torture was one of those big no-no things.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-29 08:11pm

kojikun wrote:yes, but what about pain itself is bad? why is it that we consider pain a bad thing?

The generation of pain is almost always a result of damage being done. If you need the reason why damage is a bad thing, you're beyond my help.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 08:16pm

yes granted its an indicator of damage, but why is the sensation of pain negative? why do our minds perceive it negatively as opposed to positively?

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-07-29 08:19pm

kojikun wrote:yes granted its an indicator of damage, but why is the sensation of pain negative? why do our minds perceive it negatively as opposed to positively?

Because our ancestors probably didn't have the intellectual capacity to understand that damage to their bodies is a bad thing. So, they feel pain, which makes them want to get away from whatever is causing it. That this will have the effect of removing the source of the damage and allow their bodies to heal is irrelevant to them.

One Winged Angel · Post by **One Winged Angel** » 2003-07-29 08:21pm

kojikun wrote:yes granted its an indicator of damage, but why is the sensation of pain negative? why do our minds perceive it negatively as opposed to positively?

Maybe because pain signals that you are being damaged, and if you don't respond to that, the result could be fatal. (Example: Putting your head in an oven.)

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 08:25pm

One Winged Angel wrote:Maybe because pain signals that you are being damaged, and if you don't respond to that, the result could be fatal. (Example: Putting your head in an oven.)

LMFAO! Thats classic

Its going in my sig.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-07-29 08:32pm

kojikun wrote:yes granted its an indicator of damage, but why is the sensation of pain negative? why do our minds perceive it negatively as opposed to positively?

Don't be a dumbass koji. If all pain was pleasurable, we'd seek it and be wiped out. Duh.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 08:46pm

Rye wrote:Don't be a dumbass koji. If all pain was pleasurable, we'd seek it and be wiped out. Duh.

I know that dummie. But what makes the mind interpret it the way it does. Why isn't it just something that makes us get rid of the problem, why does it gnaw at our thoughts the way it does?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-07-29 08:57pm

kojikun wrote:
Rye wrote:Don't be a dumbass koji. If all pain was pleasurable, we'd seek it and be wiped out. Duh.
I know that dummie. But what makes the mind interpret it the way it does. Why isn't it just something that makes us get rid of the problem, why does it gnaw at our thoughts the way it does?

It's highly effective, and millions of years of selection have reinforced it.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-29 08:57pm

kojikun wrote:
Rye wrote:Don't be a dumbass koji. If all pain was pleasurable, we'd seek it and be wiped out. Duh.
I know that dummie. But what makes the mind interpret it the way it does. Why isn't it just something that makes us get rid of the problem, why does it gnaw at our thoughts the way it does?

Because it has to be for it to be an effective motivator. Pain discourages pain inflicting behaviour as well as getting us to act on things currently causing us pain.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-29 09:01pm

Kojikun, at the risk of being insulting, this has to be the dumbest question you've ever posted. It is blatantly obvious why we would evolve extensive psychological aversions to pain.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 09:28pm

Mike: LOL I know its a silly question. But I was just thinking about how the brain interprets things and such. I mean, when I'm hungry or thirsty I don't feel the same intense nagging and discomfort as when I'm in pain, but those are more important then, say, a papercut and yet the papercut can latch on to my consciousness despite being entirely irrelevant.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-29 09:31pm

kojikun wrote:Mike: LOL I know its a silly question. But I was just thinking about how the brain interprets things and such. I mean, when I'm hungry or thirsty I don't feel the same intense nagging and discomfort as when I'm in pain, but those are more important then, say, a papercut and yet the papercut can latch on to my consciousness despite being entirely irrelevant.

That's because constant accumulation of tissue damage kills you faster than being a little munchie-driven.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 09:36pm

SirNitram wrote:That's because constant accumulation of tissue damage kills you faster than being a little munchie-driven.

LOL I don't think anyones died because of a papercut

I think I've sussed it tho. I don't believe the brain does perceive pain
any different from pleasure at all. I think its how the brain responds
that determines whether something (pain, pleasure, etc) is good or bad, not
the perception.

Perhaps thats how all of us works: response to stimuli dictates perception of
the stimuli after you've responded to it. Maybe it's that pain is "bad" and
unenjoyable because our brains try to prevent it. That could be why
masochists enjoy some pain -- their brains don't actually try to prevent that
signal from being sent.

It's an interesting thought, you have to admit.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-29 09:48pm

Aha! I knew this reminded me of something. I suddenly remembered
hearing "Do we cry because we're sad -- or are we sad because we cry?"
and so I googled it. Came up with a book that I've seen plenty in B&N:
Looking for Spinoza by Antonio Damasio. I've figured out, atleast, what this
topic reminded me of.

Heres what google gave me, incase you were wondering. I guess I kind of
answered myself (thanks to poking and prodding and continual thinking
thanks to you people

).

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-07-29 10:00pm

All I know is that pain gives my dad a job

EDIT: I'm kinda grumpy because I just came back from a 2 hour pain management meeting my dad dragged me to

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-29 10:06pm

kojikun wrote:
SirNitram wrote:That's because constant accumulation of tissue damage kills you faster than being a little munchie-driven.
LOL I don't think anyones died because of a papercut

Infections related to them could easily be deadly. It's tissue damage; a sign 'DON'T DO THAT'.

I think I've sussed it tho. I don't believe the brain does perceive pain
any different from pleasure at all. I think its how the brain responds
that determines whether something (pain, pleasure, etc) is good or bad, not
the perception.

That's a cockamamy theory with no real backing behind it. I'm sure neurologists have more behind their theories than this rambling.

Perhaps thats how all of us works: response to stimuli dictates perception of
the stimuli after you've responded to it. Maybe it's that pain is "bad" and
unenjoyable because our brains try to prevent it. That could be why
masochists enjoy some pain -- their brains don't actually try to prevent that
signal from being sent.

A baby understands pain is pain, no conditioning. Your theory falls.

It's an interesting thought, you have to admit.

Sadly completely unsupported.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-07-29 10:24pm

kojikun wrote:yes, but what about pain itself is bad? why is it that we consider pain a bad thing?

It's a survival mechanism. We feel pain, we seek to end it. A papercut and stab from a knife both trigger similar responses, because they are similar, but on different scales. The latter is obviously far more dangerous, but they both trigger the same effects.

As for being immoral... would you want to be horribly tortured for no reason other than to cause you pain, even if there's no lasting damage? If you answered "no," especially loudly and with the addition of other words to make the answer more emphatic, then that, quite simply, is why it's immoral.

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