ANH Trench Run

[Stravo]

I was thinking about this the other day. I'm SURE this has come up in the past, but what the hell. If the X-Wings were going "full throttle" as Luke says in the trench then they should have shot out of the trench or circumnavigated the death star several times in the amount of time shown in the actual attack run. These fighters are purported to go near relativistic speeds yet a deathstar that's about 160km in circumference should have just flashed by then during their full speed runs. I mean, for one why drop into the trench so far back from the exhaust port that it takes so long to line up a shot? Why were the wingmen IN the trench when they could have effectively flown air cover for the gunner above the trench by intercepting any inbound threats?

Is there an explanation for the speed difference in dialogue and what we actually seen in the movie?

Sorry, I have too much time to think in the shower. Someone needs to surprise me and slip in and give me a blow job every once in awhile.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Space-time interference from the Death Star's jamming mechanisms interfered with manuverability.

Its possible that the X-Wings were metaphorically moving through jello from their perspective while close to the surface, and had to push their propulsion systems to the limit to maintain decent speed and agility.

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

Well, they're meters away from a big globe thing that has to generate gravity of some kind (for the stuffon the inside), maybe the gravity generated extends a little beyond the surface of the thing, and they need to fight to stay up. That might limit the amount of propulsion making them go foward, and so "full throttle" would be less...

I dunno, I'm horrible at stuff like this.

[Darth Fanboy]

"Full Throttle" meant top combat speed perhaps, a poor choice of dialogue for that moment possibly?

Wingmen down in the trench were not subject to as many guns and the TIEs out of the Trench wouldnt have been able to spot them. After all the Death Star Flaw wasn't discovered until during the battle itself, so if things had gone perfectly according to plan the Rebels would have snuck fighters through without interference from ties. THen all they had to worry about were the Trench guns. Also, perhaps the walls of the trench were high enough that air cover would not have been effective, or maybe even the wingmen stayed low to cover against the trench's defense. Remember when "they stopped" to me it sounded like they expected guns and not Ties.

[StimNeuro]

I was thinking about this the other day. I'm SURE this has come up in the past, but what the hell. If the X-Wings were going "full throttle" as Luke says in the trench then they should have shot out of the trench or circumnavigated the death star several times in the amount of time shown in the actual attack run. These fighters are purported to go near relativistic speeds yet a deathstar that's about 160km in circumference should have just flashed by then during their full speed runs. I mean, for one why drop into the trench so far back from the exhaust port that it takes so long to line up a shot? Why were the wingmen IN the trench when they could have effectively flown air cover for the gunner above the trench by intercepting any inbound threats?

Is there an explanation for the speed difference in dialogue and what we actually seen in the movie?

Sorry, I have too much time to think in the shower. Someone needs to surprise me and slip in and give me a blow job every once in awhile.

Illuminatus already answered the speed question, so I'll skip that. The fighters probably dropped into the trench so far from the target because that was that portion of the trench was closest to Yavin 4. Instead of flying across the surface and exposing themselves to numerous gun platforms, they dropped into the trench. It might have made it more difficult to dodge the incoming fire, but having only 4(?) turbolasers firing at you instead of the thousands on the surface was seen as a good investment. This is probably the same reason why the wingmen were also in the trench.

[Connor MacLeod]

I was thinking about this the other day. I'm SURE this has come up in the past, but what the hell. If the X-Wings were going "full throttle" as Luke says in the trench then they should have shot out of the trench or circumnavigated the death star several times in the amount of time shown in the actual attack run. These fighters are purported to go near relativistic speeds yet a deathstar that's about 160km in circumference should have just flashed by then during their full speed runs. I mean, for one why drop into the trench so far back from the exhaust port that it takes so long to line up a shot? Why were the wingmen IN the trench when they could have effectively flown air cover for the gunner above the trench by intercepting any inbound threats?

Is there an explanation for the speed difference in dialogue and what we actually seen in the movie?

Considering the DS was as large as a small moon, and that the Rebel fighters were skimming its surface, moving at any sort of high speeds tthat they are capable of (hundreds or thousands of km/s, nevermind relatavistic speeds.) in that instance would be a bad idea.

For one thing, the DS's jammers were hashing their sensors and instrumentation. They were literally reduced to flying by eyeball. Flying fast then is a bad idea because of reduced reaction time in emergencies, as well as the fact they needed to hit the exhaust port (they needed to give the targeting computers time to "lock on" without shooting past, remember.)

Second, don't forget that their accelerations are generally limited to thousands of gees. Gaining any sort of appreciable velocity would take time (which means that you also have to decelerate as fast as you accelerate.) - which can hamper manuverability. This also means that the Rebel ships would have to put more distance between themselves and the death star, which would only help the gunners (it would be easier for the turrets to track the fighters at a longer range than at close range), and hamper their own targeting efforts (they couldn't even accurately hit the port through the DS's jamming even at NEAR point blank range, remember.)

Any reference to "maximum speeD" in this instance probably would refer more towards atmospheric speed (how fast they might travel on a planet or moon or other large mass) - remember that the AOTC ICS suggests that SW ships are easily capable of hypersonic speeds (12,000-20,000 km/hr)

Sorry, I have too much time to think in the shower. Someone needs to surprise me and slip in and give me a blow job every once in awhile.

Ask Ein.

[Stravo]

Sorry, I have too much time to think in the shower. Someone needs to surprise me and slip in and give me a blow job every once in awhile.

[Ask Ein.

Bastard.

[Darth Fanboy]

Any reference to "maximum speeD" in this instance probably would refer more towards atmospheric speed (how fast they might travel on a planet or moon or other large mass) - remember that the AOTC ICS suggests that SW ships are easily capable of hypersonic speeds (12,000-20,000 km/hr)

Clan Mcleod's finest shows us what's up methinks.

[irishmick79]

I imagine they dipped into the trench to give the turbolaser batteries pause. If the X-Wings were further away from the surface, the turbolaser batteries could probably criss-cross their fire patterns more effectively, and expect a greater chance at scoring a lucky hit.

[Lord Poe]

You also have to remember Luke said "We're going IN full throttle; that ought to keep those fighters off our backs."

That would mean they entered the trench at top speed, doesn't mean they maintained it once inside the trench. The computer needed time to line up the shot perfectly so the proton torpdo wouldn't bounce around on the sides of the exhaust port.

This is confirmd by Biggs' next line:

"Luke, at that speed can we pull out in time?"

[Mad]

Space-time interference from the Death Star's jamming mechanisms interfered with manuverability.

Its possible that the X-Wings were metaphorically moving through jello from their perspective while close to the surface, and had to push their propulsion systems to the limit to maintain decent speed and agility.

And a quote to back that up from the ANH novelization:

pg.148: "Also, their field generators will probably create a lot of
distortion, especially in and around the trench. I figure that
maneuverability in that sector will be less than point three."

"Point three" can be interpreted different ways, but it does suggest that fighters are reduced to less than 30% of their normal acceleration capability. Or it could be that there is some kind of inertial damping field effect that reduces their velocity if they don't apply constant thrust. Or both. Or something else. Regardless, their maneuverability was hampered.

[Connor MacLeod]

You also have to remember Luke said "We're going IN full throttle; that ought to keep those fighters off our backs."

That would mean they entered the trench at top speed, doesn't mean they maintained it once inside the trench. The computer needed time to line up the shot perfectly so the proton torpdo wouldn't bounce around on the sides of the exhaust port.

Aside from that, the di stance they were from the DS's surface (even dogfighting) dictated reduced speeds, especially in the presence of such heavy jamming. Otherwise Rebel fighters would have been pulling thousand-gee dives into the face of the Death Star. Going faster would in fact have required "opening up" the distance, which in turn would very likely have risked increased exposure to the DS's defense guns

This is confirmd by Biggs' next line:

"Luke, at that speed can we pull out in time?"

Interestingly enough, this supports my assertion that the proximity of the Death Star dictated primary speed (particularily since we already know in canon they are capable of muc greater accelerations, such as in the approach to Yavin.)

[Darth Wong]

Vader was able to effortlessly catch up to the X-wings in the trench despite having two wingmen flying bog-standard TIE fighters. Even after we compensate for the swamp-like effects of the DS distortion fields, the X-wings obviously weren't going full throttle while in the trench; only a burst on the way in.

[Marc Xavier]

"Point three" can be interpreted different ways, but it does suggest that fighters are reduced to less than 30% of their normal acceleration capability. Or it could be that there is some kind of inertial damping field effect that reduces their velocity if they don't apply constant thrust. Or both. Or something else. Regardless, their maneuverability was hampered.

The word was maneuverability, not acceleration.

In addition, on approach to the Death Star:

The man who had observed the by-play between Biggs and Luke now lowered his glare visor and adjusted his half-automatic, half-manual gunsights as he checked the ships to either side of him.

"Blue boys," he addressed his intership pickup, "this is Blue Leader. Adjust your selectors and check in. Approaching target at one point three-"

Ahead, the bright sphere of what looked like on of Yavin's moons but wasn't began to glow with increasing brightness. It shone with an eerie metallic glow utterly unlike that of any natural satellite. As he watched the giant battle station make its way around the rim of Yavin, Blue Leader's thoughts traveled back over the years. Over the uncountable injustices, the innocents taken away for interrogation and never heard from again; the whole multitude of evils incurred by an increasingly corrupt and indifferent Imperial government. All those terrors and agonies were concentrated, magnified, represented by the single bloated feat of engineering they were approaching now.

Note, "Approaching target at one point three-" as they are approaching the Death Star.

[Mad]

The word was maneuverability, not acceleration.

And just how would one hamper maneuveraiblity without hampering acceleration? Maneuverability is the ability to change your velocity, which requires acceleration.

"Approaching target at one point three-"

Sounds like he didn't finish the sentence, like there was something he was going to add. ('Degrees'? 'Thousand kilometers per second'? 'Minutes ETA'?) There's no way to tell if it can in any way be related to the "point three" figure for reduced maneuverability due to the distortion field.

[Stravo]

Luke said "We're going in and we're going in full throttle."

Bigg says: "At that speed will we be able to pull out in time?"

"Blah blah, but it'll keep those fighters off our backs." So I assume this means they were in the trench run at full throttle not just on the approach because how would going full throttle in the approach keep the fighters off their backs?

Supported by Biggs' statement that "They're coming in much faster this time."

Obviously Vader and Co. had to try and catch up.

[Lord Poe]

Luke said "We're going in and we're going in full throttle."

Bigg says: "At that speed will we be able to pull out in time?"

"Blah blah, but it'll keep those fighters off our backs." So I assume this means they were in the trench run at full throttle not just on the approach because how would going full throttle in the approach keep the fighters off their backs?

Supported by Biggs' statement that "They're coming in much faster this time."

Obviously Vader and Co. had to try and catch up.

You've got it all wrong. Outside the trench:

LUKE: "Biggs, Wedge, let's close it up. We're going in full throttle; that ought to keep those fighters off our backs.

BIGGS: "Luke, at that speed will we be able to pull out in time?"

LUKE: "It will be just like Beggar's Canyon back home!"

[Stravo]

Luke said "We're going in and we're going in full throttle."

Bigg says: "At that speed will we be able to pull out in time?"

"Blah blah, but it'll keep those fighters off our backs." So I assume this means they were in the trench run at full throttle not just on the approach because how would going full throttle in the approach keep the fighters off their backs?

Supported by Biggs' statement that "They're coming in much faster this time."

Obviously Vader and Co. had to try and catch up.

You've got it all wrong. Outside the trench:

LUKE: "Biggs, Wedge, let's close it up. We're going in full throttle; that ought to keep those fighters off our backs.

BIGGS: "Luke, at that speed will we be able to pull out in time?"

LUKE: "It will be just like Beggar's Canyon back home!"

I stand corrected. Quoting from memory boys and girls...baaddd idea.

[Darth Wong]

I stand corrected. Quoting from memory boys and girls...baaddd idea.

Besides, unless a standard TIE fighter has considerably better speed than an X-wing pulling out all the stops, Vader would have been unable to catch up to Luke or Biggs if they were using their maximum speed. Moreover, maximum speed would make it much harder to hit the exhaust port because it would obviously reduce the margin of error for torpedo launch timing.

[Connor MacLeod]

I stand corrected. Quoting from memory boys and girls...baaddd idea.

Besides, unless a standard TIE fighter has considerably better speed than an X-wing pulling out all the stops, Vader would have been unable to catch up to Luke or Biggs if they were using their maximum speed. Moreover, maximum speed would make it much harder to hit the exhaust port because it would obviously reduce the margin of error for torpedo launch timing.

Not to mention make it difficult to pull out at the end. And pulling the full thousands of gees they are capable of would typically require an increased distance above the Death Star's surface, which might very well put them under fire from the Death Star's guns.

[Darth Wong]

It would also increase the acceleration necessary for the torpedo to make the turn.

[Connor MacLeod]

It would also increase the acceleration necessary for the torpedo to make the turn.

Good point. Higher acceleration would also divert power from other sytstems (shields, sensors, weapons, EW, etc.) as well as burn up fuel faster.

Lets not forget they were virtually flying by eyeball the whole time. Usually when my driving conditions are adverse (Rain, fog, snow) I tend to slow down. I would imagine much the same would be true for Yavin.

[nightmare]

Luke flying away from the Death Star just before it blows up also proves that the X-Wing is capable of greater acceleration than demonstrated in the trench.

[Cal Wright]

LoL Stravo. I was just thinking that myself when I watched it Monday. I think like others have said is that full throttle was entering. Biggs of course would be worried that if they got in there and maintained that speed they wouldn't be able to pull out of the trench before hitting the wall. In fact Red Leader can be seen pulling up slowly from the trench as he goes through the explosion. I also thought of this. "Accelerate to attack speed" on the approach to the Death Star. Does this mean they weren't going full speed to arrive at the Death STar? Possibly since they just passed through the magnetic field they were slowed down and had to pick speed up.

[PainRack]

Actually, that one point three quote always remind me of some nav grid, approach vector or something like that.
Something like enemy straight ahead, 3 right from bungalow, 100, fire!