Satan = Nyarlathotep?????

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-28 02:20pm

I have read several times that The Devil is nothing but one of Nyarlathotep's many incarnations.

However, as I've not read all of Lovecraft's stories - I'd like to know which Lovecraft short story implied or stated this, or whether it was some other writer who started drawing parallels between Nyarlathotep and Satan?

Sindai · Post by **Sindai** » 2003-07-28 04:06pm

Well, in the dream cycle there's a very short bit called "Nyarlathotep" where he comes out of Egypt in human form and travels around the world, showing off evil 'n' stuff and causing people to get sucked into your generic Lovecraftian dark dimensionless void o' death. But that doesn't seem that similar. Although, like many of the dream cycle stories that one's pretty surreal.

Of course, I'm by no means an LC expert.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-29 03:57am

Sindai wrote:Well, in the dream cycle there's a very short bit called "Nyarlathotep" where he comes out of Egypt in human form and travels around the world, showing off evil 'n' stuff and causing people to get sucked into your generic Lovecraftian dark dimensionless void o' death.

Huh??

I thought Nyarlathotep was the most subtle of the Outer Gods?

Causing havoc in that way would more be something Cthulhu would do.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-07-29 04:25am

chick.com tells me nyarlothetep is a figment of satan.

I dunno bout that, since nyarl is so much more powerful.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-07-29 05:10am

IIRC it's because Satan gets the credit for a lot of Nylar's stuff one example being the black man talking to witch-types.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-29 05:17am

Enforcer Talen wrote:chick.com tells me nyarlothetep is a figment of satan.

It's supposed to be the other way round. Or maybe Nyarlathotep is a figment of Satan, who in turn is a figment of Nyarlathotep.... OK, now it's getting really confusing.

SylasGaunt wrote:IIRC it's because Satan gets the credit for a lot of Nylar's stuff one example being the black man talking to witch-types.

In which HPL tale was "Ye Blacke Man" explained as Nyarlathotep??

(I think it might have been The Case of Charles Dexter Ward but the entity focused most upon in The Case... is Yog-Sothoth, or as he's called there - "Yogge-Sothothe")

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-07-29 11:23am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Sindai wrote:Well, in the dream cycle there's a very short bit called "Nyarlathotep" where he comes out of Egypt in human form and travels around the world, showing off evil 'n' stuff and causing people to get sucked into your generic Lovecraftian dark dimensionless void o' death.
Huh??

I thought Nyarlathotep was the most subtle of the Outer Gods?

Causing havoc in that way would more be something Cthulhu would do.

Nyarlathotep is probably the only entity in Lovecraft that notices humans, this is still pretty subtle for him: pretending to be human and luring others into the madness of the Lovecraftian worlds.

Cthulhu would just lumber about, maybe kill humans if they bother him, but he cares little for them.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-07-29 10:40pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote: In which HPL tale was "Ye Blacke Man" explained as Nyarlathotep??

I'll see if I can find where I saw it.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-07-30 01:42am

Enforcer Talen wrote:chick.com tells me nyarlothetep is a figment of satan.

I dunno bout that, since nyarl is so much more powerful.

chick.com says what ever they like with no proof what so ever. If anything as stated Satan is a figment of Nyarl, becuase God is suppose to be Astrogth, and he doesn't even know/care we exist.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-07-30 01:58am

cmon, dude. everyone knows god loves you and is sending you to hell.

uncaring doesnt describe him.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-30 02:09am

Darth_Shinji wrote:If anything as stated Satan is a figment of Nyarl, becuase God is suppose to be Astrogth, and he doesn't even know/care we exist.

Who's Astrogth???

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-07-30 07:25am

I think he means Azathoth.. and wasn't it said once that Nyarlath was Azathoth's mind? (Hence why his physical self is the idiot god)

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-07-30 09:35am

Yep I mean Azathoth, thanks SylasGaunt.

And I've heard he is the avatar of the Outer Gods. But I don't remember hearing he was Azathoth's mind. But he could be.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-30 10:16am

Darth_Shinji wrote:And I've heard he is the avatar of the Outer Gods.

Nyarlathotep is IIRC the messenger of the Outer Gods. The other Outer Gods include Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath.

And I'm not sure about Nodens and Hypnos - he was introduced by Lovecraft, but later catalogued as "Elder Gods" by the likes of August Derleth and Brian Lumley IIRC. (However, the concept of the Elder Gods fighting against the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones - as well as the classification "Elder Gods" - is not a conception of Lovecraft's)

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-07-30 12:49pm

I think the "Eldar Gods" are just suppose to be more human in apperance and temperment beings. Such as Baast.

And that whole crap gets me mad....Elder Gods impronising the Old Ones...Elder Signs like crosses.. Good versus Evil in Lovecraft...ug!

He's prob rolling in his grave.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-30 02:03pm

Strangely enough, in "The Strange High House In The Mist" Nodens appears to bequite indifferent. (Even though Derleth & Co. turned him into a "benevolent elder god" - strange treatment of a deity whose title is "Lord Of The Abyss")

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-07-30 04:46pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Strangely enough, in "The Strange High House In The Mist" Nodens appears to bequite indifferent. (Even though Derleth & Co. turned him into a "benevolent elder god" - strange treatment of a deity whose title is "Lord Of The Abyss")

So what ? Hastur was originally known as a benevolent god, guess it all balances out in the end.

And wasn't Nodens turn benevolent in one of Lovecraft's dreamcycle stories ?

Sindai · Post by **Sindai** » 2003-07-30 06:06pm

SylasGaunt wrote:I think he means Azathoth.. and wasn't it said once that Nyarlath was Azathoth's mind? (Hence why his physical self is the idiot god)

That actually makes sense, given the ending of "Nyarlathotep."

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-31 02:25am

Dizzy D wrote:
And wasn't Nodens turn benevolent in one of Lovecraft's dreamcycle stories ?

Yeah - but did Nodens fight against the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones in that story?? (I haven't read every single Lovecraft story)

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-07-31 12:13pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Dizzy D wrote:
And wasn't Nodens turn benevolent in one of Lovecraft's dreamcycle stories ?
Yeah - but did Nodens fight against the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones in that story?? (I haven't read every single Lovecraft story)

No , not actually fight, but he did help Carter and to make thingsclear: I don't buy the Outer Gods vs. Elder Gods thing at all, but I also don't buy that the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods are a unified front, it's each for it's own with some of the Outer Gods obviously alligned, but Nodens actions clearly put him at odds with Nyarlathotep.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-31 12:18pm

Hmm... this idea about a benevolent Nodens seems to a brainbug!!!

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-07-31 12:30pm

From the Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath:

"He had met those silent, flitting and clutching creatures before; those mindless guardians of the Great Abyss whom even the Great Ones fear, and who own not Nyarlathotep but hoary Nodens as their lord. For they were the dreaded night-gaunts, who never laugh or smile because they have no faces, and who flop unendingly in the dark betwixt the Vale of Pnath and the passes to the outer world. "

"And there was a firmament again, and a wind, and a glare of purple light in the eyes of the falling dreamer. There were gods and presences and wills; beauty and evil, and the shrieking of noxious night robbed of its prey. For through the unknown ultimate cycle had lived a thought and a vision of a dreamer's boyhood, and now there were remade a waking world and an old cherished city to body and to justify these things. Out of the void S'ngac the violet gas had pointed the way, and archaic Nodens was bellowing his guidance from unhinted deeps. "

"And hoary Nodens raised a howl of triumph when Nyarlathotep, close on his quarry, stopped baffled by a glare that seared his formless hunting-horrors to grey dust. Randolph Carter had indeed descended at last the wide marmoreal flights to his marvellous city, for he was come again to the fair New England world that had wrought him."

This quotes prove that Nodens helped Randolph Carter a human when pursued by Nyarlathotep. So it does make him seem benevolent.

If you want to check out yourself:
http://www.gizmology.net/lovecraft/works/index.htm

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-31 12:56pm

Gah! I truly need to read "The Dream-Quest Of Unknown Kadath" again!!!

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-07-31 12:59pm

Well, at least I can see where the brain bug came from. I still think its wrong to make Lovecraft into a good versus evil story. Not to say some of the stories aren't good by themselves. Just throwing Lovecraft's basic premise of "Universe is uncaring and unfathomable" out the window.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-07-31 01:21pm

Dizzy D wrote:From the Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath:

(snip)

This quotes prove that Nodens helped Randolph Carter a human when pursued by Nyarlathotep. So it does make him seem benevolent.

If you want to check out yourself:
http://www.gizmology.net/lovecraft/works/index.htm

Ahh.. but is he helping Carter... or hindering Nyarlathotep?