Episode 3 Incredible Cross Sections?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-30 01:26am

Anyone know if there will BE an Episode 3 ICS? I've checked Amazon and theforce.net, and still no word. Theforce.net has titles named well into 2005, but no mention of an ICS or even a Visual Dictionary.

I haven't heard any official statement whether or not Curtis Saxton and David West Reynolds will write the next ones or not. Anyone read any info anywhere?

DWR is ok, but the AOTC ICS was far superior to the Star Wars one. So I hope Curtis gets to do it again if there WILL be an Ep3 ICS. He pores through hundreds of sources, spending LONG hours putting those tiny deails in there. You've got to read the damned book 5 times before you catch all the canon and official references he's stuck in there! It would be very disappointing if the the next one doesn't match or DOUBLE that info overload!

So would anyone buy the next ICS if it reverted back to minimal descriptions of what we already saw onscreen? Or do you like all the attention to detail, and scientific numbers Dr. Saxton squeezes into those pages?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-07-30 01:38am

Wait at least a year until they release some info concerning it. It's MUCH to early for anything to be reported now, since they've just only started pre-production of the film...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-30 01:40am

We can certainly hope for another ICS book in the same style. Curtis' style is so much more precise and informative than the people who wrote the earlier tech books (his academic background undoubtedly comes into play there).

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-07-30 01:46am

I'd get an Ep. III edition even if Dr. Saxton isn't in on it. For the artwork, mostly.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-07-30 01:55am

Frank Hipper wrote:I'd get an Ep. III edition even if Dr. Saxton isn't in on it. For the artwork, mostly.

Really, to some the numbers are what made the AOTC ICS. For me, that's good, but holy shit can Hans Jessen and Richard Chasemore illustrate SW ships. Especially the fold-out page. The first time I opened up that LAAT page it blew me away.

So of course I'll buy the EpIII ICS whether or not its done by Mr. Saxton. If it is done by him though, the more the merrier. Nothin' like pissing off Trekkies to get the most out of Star Wars literature.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-07-30 02:00am

Frank Hipper wrote:I'd get an Ep. III edition even if Dr. Saxton isn't in on it. For the artwork, mostly.

I'll buy one, too, no matter who makes it, but I'm hoping it will be Doctor Saxton or someone like him, who gets to pen the next ICS book.

As Spanky said, it's far too early for them to have an ICS planned. Even the AotC ICS was announced less than a year before the release of AotC. Since they're not even producing the film, yet, it would be impossible for an author or illustrator to begin researching any vehicles specific to Episode III.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-30 02:01am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:I'd get an Ep. III edition even if Dr. Saxton isn't in on it. For the artwork, mostly.
I'll buy one, too, no matter who makes it, but I'm hoping it will be Doctor Saxton or someone like him, who gets to pen the next ICS book.

Let's put it this way: if it's not him, then you never know what scientifically ignorant nonsense might make it into the next book.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-30 02:02am

Any expected reaction if the numbers in this one are even larger for say bigger capital ships like a Victory or dreadnought that make it into the book or is the debate community just dead at this point and the Ep II ICS did its job?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-07-30 02:04am

Darth Wong wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:I'd get an Ep. III edition even if Dr. Saxton isn't in on it. For the artwork, mostly.
I'll buy one, too, no matter who makes it, but I'm hoping it will be Doctor Saxton or someone like him, who gets to pen the next ICS book.
Let's put it this way: if it's not him, then you never know what scientifically ignorant nonsense might make it into the next book.

Well, what if it's you?

Doctor Saxton is a perfect choice for the book, but I'm sure that there are others who would manage to avoid "scientifically ignorant nonsense."

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-30 02:17am

Stravo wrote:Any expected reaction if the numbers in this one are even larger for say bigger capital ships like a Victory or dreadnought that make it into the book or is the debate community just dead at this point and the Ep II ICS did its job?

The debate community was only kept alive by stupidity in the past, and AOTC ICS only removed enough ambiguity to silence that. I just wouldn't want to see something like the old Essential Guides, which basically used a lot of words but gave very little hard information (or worse yet, something like the Star Trek TM, which goes even farther and spews seemingly limitless verbal diarrhea, but I think that unlikely for a SW book).

Master of Ossus wrote:Well, what if it's you?

I'd say that's about as likely as a thunderstorm in my underwear

Not that I couldn't write something like that if I wanted to, or do a good job given my abilities, but I've been in enough business organizations to know that somebody in the system would veto my name even in the extremely unlikely scenario that it comes up in the first place, because any ability to research the facts or write calmly when necessary would be dismissed due to my tendency to speak bluntly in public, or worse yet, say a lot of facetious things which could easily be taken out of context to "prove" I'm nuts. And of course, I don't conceal my contempt for the exact sort of people who would probably be making the decision. They would view me as Dilbert.

Hell, I would do something like that for free if the opportunity came up, but you have to either campaign for something like that or have some "champion" inside the organization on your behalf. Big organizations like any major corporation (including Lucasfilm) are ruled by politics, and the most competent person doesn't necessarily get the job.

Master of Ossus wrote:Doctor Saxton is a perfect choice for the book, but I'm sure that there are others who would manage to avoid "scientifically ignorant nonsense."

Possibly, but given the history of SW tech books, one would have to be more than a little concerned.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-07-30 02:22am

Darth Wong wrote:Possibly, but given the history of SW tech books, one would have to be more than a little concerned.

I'm a tad concerned that a lot of individuals who are part of the Star Wars community often tap TF.net's JC Forums for public interest, and I personally know their perspective intimately. One of the most prolific posters (who I might add fixed Zahn's chronology for C'boath for his Prequel era novel) regarded Episode II ICS as "technobabble."

Mitth`raw`nuruodo · Post by **Mitth`raw`nuruodo** » 2003-07-30 02:25am

Darth Wong wrote:Hell, I would do something like that for free if the opportunity came up, but you have to either campaign for something like that or have some "champion" inside the organization on your behalf. Big organizations like any major corporation (including Lucasfilm) are ruled by politics, and the most competent person doesn't necessarily get the job.

*begins to make signs*

Myself, I wonder more what ships will be in EPII ICS (assuming there will be one), and how they will do them (I wanna see a big fold-out cross-section of an ISD

). Hell, I just want to see EP3. As to the Saxton/anyone else thing, I don't care 'bout numbers, i want ART! As long as the author isn't a total ignoramus, I don't really care what he says. If I buy this thing, It will probably be for the art, I get my numbers off this site, and if someone decides to try and claim stupid numbers, then i can ignore him/her and go back to this site (and the movies this site draws info from).

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-07-30 02:25am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'm a tad concerned that a lot of individuals who are part of the Star Wars community often tap TF.net's JC Forums for public interest, and I personally know their perspective intimately. One of the most prolific posters (who I might add fixed Zahn's chronology for C'boath for his Prequel era novel) regarded Episode II ICS as "technobabble."

Make no mistake, there is some technobabble in the ICS (I mean, trying to explain anything in sci-fi is technobabble, but some of the stuff Saxton said about repulorlifts with the black holes and all....yuck), but there's also cold, hard numbers and figures that you can't dismiss as technobabble. Unless your an ignorant fool who thinks "joules" and "watts" are technobabble.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-07-30 02:26am

I am not sure that I would buy it if it wasn't written by someone like Dr Saxton. I mean the other ones were nice but in the end it was just pretty pictures with no substance. At least Dr Saxton put substance in it, and I wouldn't have cared if he said that the fighters laser cannons were 100 Watts (like some tool on the internet did), at least it would have had said something.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-30 02:30am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'm a tad concerned that a lot of individuals who are part of the Star Wars community often tap TF.net's JC Forums for public interest, and I personally know their perspective intimately. One of the most prolific posters (who I might add fixed Zahn's chronology for C'boath for his Prequel era novel) regarded Episode II ICS as "technobabble."

That's rather unsettling, to say the least, but not surprising. These kinds of people do not want Star Wars to be seen as sci-fi. They want it to be seen as mindless entertainment for little kids.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-30 02:43am

Crown wrote:I am not sure that I would buy it if it wasn't written by someone like Dr Saxton. I mean the other ones were nice but in the end it was just pretty pictures with no substance. At least Dr Saxton put substance in it, and I wouldn't have cared if he said that the fighters laser cannons were 100 Watts (like some tool on the internet did), at least it would have had said something.

Agreed. I like an author who is meticulous with the facts. The bar has been set with the AOTC ICS. Let's hope it stays that way and doesn't get treated like a general-descriptive throwaway product.

I mean, let's face it, the ICS is the perfect product for Curtis to write! One look at his website says it all. I'm glad Lucasfilm and/or DK did something right when they chose him.

Now let's hope Curtis will do a Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi ICS!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-30 02:47am

DWR wasn't bad, but there are a lot of authors out there in the world, and you never know what direction they'll take next. The old Essential Guides were written by a whole host of different authors, most of whom probably don't even know what a joule is.

*shudder*

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-30 02:54am

Darth Wong wrote:DWR wasn't bad, but there are a lot of authors out there in the world, and you never know what direction they'll take next. The old Essential Guides were written by a whole host of different authors, most of whom probably don't even know what a joule is.

*shudder*

Hey, Keven J. Anderson wrote the Essential Chronolgy. That's WAY too close to the Essential Guides or ICSs!

Brian Young · Post by **Brian Young** » 2003-07-30 03:01am

Darth Wong wrote:Hell, I would do something like that for free if the opportunity came up, but you have to either campaign for something like that or have some "champion" inside the organization on your behalf. Big organizations like any major corporation (including Lucasfilm) are ruled by politics, and the most competent person doesn't necessarily get the job.

That is a shame. If I found out that some average Joe rubbed elbows with higher-ups, and pushed a real scientist out of a job meant for a scientist (ICS particularly - they've only used people with a PhD so far), I would probably boycott the DK books and urge my readers to do the same.
ICS is not just a cartoon book! It takes an astrophysicist or engineer to figure out a rational way for these starships to operate, figure out what would go where and why, etc.
I've been doing tech analysis for about 6 years now, and I couldn't do it like Curtis did.
People are just so accustomed to stupid Trek rules and designs that simply have no basis in real physics, that they NEED a refreshing change to something logical and based at least loosely on real physics.
All those "numbers" were based on heavy analysis and calculations. They weren't simply "made up" and thrown in there.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-30 03:04am

Of course, all of this could be quite premature as we don't even know for sure whether there will even be an Ep3 ICS at all, never mind whether Curtis would get a repeat engagement.

The ICS does seem to be something of a customary thing by now, though. So we can certainly hope.

Brian Young · Post by **Brian Young** » 2003-07-30 03:06am

Darth Wong wrote:DWR wasn't bad, but there are a lot of authors out there in the world, and you never know what direction they'll take next. The old Essential Guides were written by a whole host of different authors, most of whom probably don't even know what a joule is.

*shudder*

At least DWR has a PhD in archeology. He approached Star Wars as a civilization that he was studying. That makes him perfect for the Visual Dictionary. His attention to detail and scientific background are what turned me on to the DK books. Then the bar was set much higher when Curtis did it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-30 03:08am

Brian Young wrote:At least DWR has a PhD in archeology.

Is that what his background was in? I had a vague impression that it was anthropology, but I must confess I didn't look carefully into it. I can see how his background influenced his technique, though.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-30 03:10am

Darth Wong wrote:Of course, all of this could be quite premature as we don't even know for sure whether there will even be an Ep3 ICS at all, never mind whether Curtis would get a repeat engagement.

The ICS does seem to be something of a customary thing by now, though. So we can certainly hope.

I imagine if Curtis recieved a popular reception for the AOTC ICS (IE alot of people bought it.) then he probably would be brought back to do the next one. (large sales I would imagine would convince DK to bring him back.)

Wasn't Curtis also credited on "Worlds of AOTC" though as well? That suggests he is being kept on still. Hell, they still use DWR, so I imagine they would still use Curtis.

Edit: Wow, Wayne, Brian Mike and myself participating in the same thread? This is a rare event outside of mails

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-30 03:13am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Wasn't Curtis also credited on "Worlds of AOTC" though as well? That suggests he is being kept on still. Hell, they still use DWR, so I imagine they would still use Curtis.

True; it's mostly Illuminatus Primus' comment that has me concerned. Mind you, I have no idea what his inside connection is or how good it is, so all of this might be mere vapour.

Brian Young · Post by **Brian Young** » 2003-07-30 03:15am

Lord Poe wrote:I like an author who is meticulous with the facts. The bar has been set with the AOTC ICS. Let's hope it stays that way and doesn't get treated like a general-descriptive throwaway product.

Agreed. In my opinion, it has so far been the most well thought out series of technical books in major SciFi. It is simply not within the capabilities of someone without a scientific background. At least, to do it right.

For example, we know that Anakin suffers critical injuries in E3, and that is why he wears the mask (respirator). If an ICS were written about that, would anyone without a medical background be appropriate? No. See my analysis of Vader's X-ray on Curtis' site. Could any of you have done that?

In the same vein, a book about technology on starships should not be written by someone who doesn't know about technology, physics, and how a real starship might work consistent with their capabilities in Star Wars.