ends and means, part 2

[Enforcer Talen]

ok, more realistic -

you are supreme authority on earth. your advisors tell you aids is a horrific plague, as it is in our world, and the fastest discovery a cure will be with human experimntation.

so - one hundred thousand must die, while being tested, over an average of 3 days. some of these experiments will not be pleasant.

there is a 75% chance of cure. and, dont argue the morality of the despotism we're debating .1 mil in unpleasant death vs 20 million in unpleasant death.

so. what do you do.

[kojikun]

75% cure? what are the death rates for AIDS patients?

[Enforcer Talen]

I dunno. same as here.

and, the 100k have to be a specific type - which includes criminals and good members of society both.

[InnerBrat]

OK, The testees will probably have AIDS or be HIV+. No doubt there will be some control, and my advisors will tell me the risk of those healthy people dying in relation to the risk of the infected dying.

Simple. Authorise the tests on volunteers only.

[Companion Cube]

OK, The testees will probably have AIDS or be HIV+. No doubt there will be some control, and my advisors will tell me the risk of those healthy people dying in relation to the risk of the infected dying.

Simple. Authorise the tests on volunteers only.

Looks like you beat me to it.

[Steven Snyder]

Aren't we already overpopulated with thousands if not more dying each year of starvation, and we are still increasing our numbers?

Okay I am going to get a little harsh here. Except for the rare case of a bad blood transfusion or some odd accident, your average Joe isn't going to get AIDS by riding in the same subway car as an HIV positive individual.

AIDS is one of those diseases, that is almost entirely avoidable if you are careful. The US calculates a total of 111,463 cases of AIDS (with known causes) through December 2001. Of these cases 98.7% of them are caused by having sex with infected partners, or sharing needles with infected partners.

Sorry, I am not about to sacrifice 100,000 innocent lives, and destroy 100,000 families cure 20 million people, the vast majority of which wouldn't have got it if they had been more careful. AIDS has been around for decades now and if you don't know about it by now, too bad.

To those that did get it through transfusions, rape, or otherwise no fault of their own, I regret their loss, but they accont for only about 250,000 of the cases.

[InnerBrat]

Sorry, I am not about to sacrifice 100,000 innocent lives, and destroy 100,000 families cure 20 million people, the vast majority of which wouldn't have got it if they had been more careful.

Right. I would really appreciate it if you read the original thread before starting on how it's everyone's fualt that they've got AIDS. It isn.'t. The vast majority of AIDS sufferers are innocent victims of circumstance, so don't you start.

[Andrew J.]

I'd do it, and I'd tape the more "unpleasant" experiments for enjoymenyt at a later date.

These things are so much easier when you're a sadist, don't you agree?

[NapoleonGH]

I see no problem with doing such a thing.

My view of morals is generally that of the utilitarians who say that which allows the least bad to come to pass while creating the greatest good, is the moral option, regardless of the means.

Thus if you can save 1 million but only by killing 10,000, if there is no way to do it without allowing more than 10,000 thousand to die, i would do it in a heartbeat

[Enforcer Talen]

I dunno. same as here.

and, the 100k have to be a specific type - which includes criminals and good members of society both.

ha, I beat you all! no volunteers. . . or, not enough to make much of a moral difference.

[Steven Snyder]

Right. I would really appreciate it if you read the original thread before starting on how it's everyone's fualt that they've got AIDS.

The original poster laid out a new scenario with this post. He did not ask that I go back and read the original post.

The vast majority of AIDS sufferers are innocent victims of circumstance, so don't you start.

I will start.

I will start because a very specific disease was mentioned and that has to be included in the discussion.

But you claim that most are innocent victims of circumstance, if that is the case, you wouldn't mind looking at the statistics I am looking at would you?

http://www.avert.org/usastatg.htm

Of 170,000 cases in 2001, only 1,406 were known from blood transfusions or hemophiliacs. That comes in at what? 0.8%? I woiuld call these people innocent victims of circumstances.

Now on the otherhand 82,303 cases were known to be caused directly from high-risk behavior. That comes in at 48% alone. I would not call these people innocent victims of circumstances, though that is my subjective opinion.

The other 50% include heterosexual contact and Other/Unknown which is not elaborated on.

Innerbrat, if you can find me a study which contradicts this, please do so. I would be happy to see your wisdom on this matter.

[Steven Snyder]

I also found a CDC report...

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hasr1302/table5.htm

[InnerBrat]

Both of those surveys cover the Good Ol' US of A, which its not where the majority of AIDS cases live.

Find me stats that prove most global cases of HIV are due to knowingly taking risks in the situation of well publicised dangers, if you want to make a point.

[InnerBrat]

some actual informatiion

[Specialist]

ok, more realistic -

you are supreme authority on earth. your advisors tell you aids is a horrific plague, as it is in our world, and the fastest discovery a cure will be with human experimntation.

so - one hundred thousand must die, while being tested, over an average of 3 days. some of these experiments will not be pleasant.

there is a 75% chance of cure. and, dont argue the morality of the despotism we're debating .1 mil in unpleasant death vs 20 million in unpleasant death.

so. what do you do.

I wouldn't go ahead with the experiment. The ends doesn't justified the means. As previously stated aids is a preventable disease, next time they should be more careful (oh there won't be a next time ). I'm sorry for all those innocent people dying in Africa each day.

[Steven Snyder]

Both of those surveys cover the Good Ol' US of A, which its not where the majority of AIDS cases live.

How about this little document from the World Health Organization...

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/statemen ... ement5/en/

Following a review of evidence, which included recent articles suggesting that a majority of HIV infections in sub-Saharan Africa are due to unsafe medical practices, particularly injections, the experts concluded that such suggestions are not supported by the vast majority of evidence and that unsafe sexual practices continue to be responsible for the overwhelming majority of infections. While a combination of prevention measures are required to tackle all modes of HIV transmission, safer sex promotion must remain the primary feature of prevention programmes in the region.

Then there is this...

Find me stats that prove most global cases of HIV are due to knowingly taking risks in the situation of well publicised dangers, if you want to make a point.

HOLD IT!
First of all, it is YOUR claim that the vast majority of AIDS cases are innocent victims of circumstances. You disagreed with me on that, yet you have provided me NO evidence of your claim. YOU find me data on that, your little article on Africa only pointed out nothing of the sort.

The article you brought up only further reinforces the point that the key to fighting the disease is prevention. Which backs up my point that...

AIDS is one of those diseases, that is almost entirely avoidable if you are careful.

You want to argue against that, fine show me the data that reveals that most cases are innocent victims of circumstances.

Until then I stand firm.

[InnerBrat]

No, if you claim that "the vast majority" of AIDS victims have become infected due to their own carelessness, and therefore have less right to live than someone else, you need to proove that they were aware of the risks, had access to preventative methods and the right education, and then knowingly and willingly took a chance at contracting the virus. not one of your stats cover the education that victims had received, and the options open to them for prevention.

From WHO (thanks for the link):

The vulnerability of girls to HIV infection is exacerbated by denial or neglect of their recognised human rights - including gender discrimination - resulting in inadequate control over their exposure to sexual HIV transmission and poor access to socio-economic oportunities

The physical and mental abuse of children may increase the likelihood of their engaging in risk taking sexual behaviour and thus increase their vulnerability to HIV infection

Among HIV-positive women who breastfeed and do not receive a preventative antiretroviral treatment. the chances that their child will become infected through mopther-to-child transmission range from 25% to 40%

In South Africa, AIDS is essentially a social disease and therefore social interventions - the mainstay of primary prevention efforts - remain the most potent weapon in our fight against this scourge

Preventative measures that include education for people who wouldn't usually know they're putting themsleves at risk, condom distribuiton for those who couldn't normally afford them, improved health services to areas where there normally wouldn't be any way of knowing who is infected.
Preventative measures that work on improving the socio-economic circumstances that are behind the majority of HIV infections.

[Mad]

Use volunteers. I can't get enough, you say? Offer benefits to the families of the volunteers. The incentive needed to get the required number of volunteers may seem to be too great, but that'd just be the cost of morality.

[Traceroute]

Personally, I think it would be well worth the sacrifice if it eliminated the threat of this disease. I mean, c'mon, all good despots protect their subjects from themselves, regardless of what it takes.

Seriously, though, AIDS has the potential to destroy far too many people. The death of 100 K volunteers or non volunteers is a pittance compared to the number of people that stand to die and those that have already died.

History may then judge me as evil. Fuck 'em.