Almost 70 years ago...

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-07-30 10:46am

The National Socialists in Germany started the fencing in of Jewish ghettoes. Its amazing how the wheel turns isn't it?

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-07-30 10:52am

For those that haven't yet read the news:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/ ... 06239.html

Sharon ignores US on security fence
July 31 2003
By Marian Wilkinson
United States Correspondent
Washington

Picture: AFP
Israel's Ariel Sharon watches US President George Bush during a news conference after their White House meeting.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has vowed to continue building a controversial security fence separating the West Bank from Israel, despite opposition from US President George Bush.

Mr Bush's failure to extract any significant concessions from Mr Sharon during their meeting at the White House yesterday to discuss the Middle East "road map" is expected to put Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas under intense pressure at home and could trigger a no-confidence motion against him.

Mr Bush's meetings with Mr Abbas and Mr Sharon were intended to rejuvenate the peace process, which is widely considered to be stalled.

Last week, after meeting Mr Abbas, Mr Bush voiced rare criticism of Israel for building the fence, which cuts deeply into Palestinian territory.

He described the fence, sections of which are a concrete wall, as a problem. "It is very difficult to develop confidence between the Palestinians and Israel with a wall snaking through the West Bank," he said.

Mr Abbas warned then: "If the settlement activities in Palestinian land and construction of the so-called separation wall on confiscated Palestinian land continue, we might soon find ourselves at a situation where the foundation of peace, a free Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with Israel, is a factual impossibility."

But at the White House yesterday, Mr Sharon insisted that the fence "will continue to be built", but it would be done "with every effort to minimise the infringement on the daily life of the Palestinian people".

White House officials denied that Mr Bush had backed down on his objections to the fence. But after meeting Mr Sharon, Mr Bush changed his language, describing the fence as "a sensitive issue". However, he urged Mr Sharon to "carefully consider all the consequences of Israel's actions".

Mr Bush also supported Mr Sharon's stance that the Palestinian Authority needed to dismantle terrorist groups.

Mr Sharon described the ceasefire agreed to by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's al-Aqsa Brigades last month as fragile.

"We are concerned that this welcome quiet will be shattered any minute as a result of the continued existence of terror organisations, which the Palestinian Authority is doing nothing to eliminate or dismantle," he said.

Mr Sharon said he had made concessions to the Palestinian Authority. Israel announced it would release 500 of 7000 Palestinian prisoners, dismantle 20 of 80 settler outposts, lift three of 100 checkpoints and withdraw forces from two towns.

But he said he would not take any major steps until "we witness the dismantlement of terrorist organisations".

However, Mr Abbas and his security chief made it clear that while the Palestinian Authority would pressure militant groups to maintain the ceasefire, it would not tackle them head-on. "We will not enter a civil war with Palestinian organisations," Mr Abbas said in Washington.

• Mr Sharon told Administration officials there was growing evidence that Iran was stepping up support for Palestinian militants and that Tehran was accelerating efforts to develop nuclear weapons that could strike Israel.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-07-30 10:54am

Indeed.

How can anybody claim that American foreign influence is on the rise when we can't even influence the actions of a state that owes a large amount of its continued survival to American diplomatic efforts on its behalf?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-30 10:57am

Hmmmm....looks like Sharon is trying to sic the town pitbull on Iran. I was never comfortable with the way Israel ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS tries to link their struggle with 9/11 and the war on terror. Its quite tacky and oppurtunistic of them and seems ham handed diplmatically, but then again Israel has never struck me as politically or diplomatically adept.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-07-30 11:08am

Iceberg wrote:Indeed.

How can anybody claim that American foreign influence is on the rise when we can't even influence the actions of a state that owes a large amount of its continued survival to American diplomatic efforts on its behalf?

Israel has a history of ignoring US critisism, it really means nothing.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-30 11:10am

Iceberg wrote:Indeed.

How can anybody claim that American foreign influence is on the rise when we can't even influence the actions of a state that owes a large amount of its continued survival to American diplomatic efforts on its behalf?

Israel knows full well that they could do just about anything and we won't abandon them thanks to the Jewish lobby here, hardly an effective example of waning influence.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-07-30 11:14am

Stravo wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Indeed.

How can anybody claim that American foreign influence is on the rise when we can't even influence the actions of a state that owes a large amount of its continued survival to American diplomatic efforts on its behalf?
Israel knows full well that they could do just about anything and we won't abandon them thanks to the Jewish lobby here, hardly an effective example of waning influence.

No, but it suggests our influence isn't particularly on the rise, either.

Plus there's our current crop of Globocop missions (Iraq and Afghanistan)...

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-30 11:43am

Stravo wrote:I was never comfortable with the way Israel ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS tries to link their struggle with 9/11 and the war on terror.

They've been fighting Al-Fatah (Arafat's old group from the 60s), PLO,
Hezbollah, and what not since their creation in 1948, they've had tractors
with farmers run over secretly planted landmines, they've had suicide
bombings, etc etc etc etc etc, they've been fighting terror for fifty plus
years continously, while we just entered the game in 2001...

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-30 12:00pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Stravo wrote:I was never comfortable with the way Israel ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS tries to link their struggle with 9/11 and the war on terror.

They've been fighting Al-Fatah (Arafat's old group from the 60s), PLO,
Hezbollah, and what not since their creation in 1948, they've had tractors
with farmers run over secretly planted landmines, they've had suicide
bombings, etc etc etc etc etc, they've been fighting terror for fifty plus
years continously, while we just entered the game in 2001...

It's the blind, almost keystone cops like attempt to create this linkage and the naked ambition to try and capitalize on the deaths of 9/11 that irk me more than anything else. I am not denying that they too are facing terrorism, I'm saying that constantly harping on joining our war on terror is frankly annoying.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-30 12:00pm

Iceberg wrote: How can anybody claim that American foreign influence is on the rise when we can't even influence the actions of a state that owes a large amount of its continued survival to American diplomatic efforts on its behalf?

Lets see: They:

Defeated the Arabs in:

1948
1956
1967
1973

And of course, they have their own nuclear deterrent

They just like to go to us for legal veneer. Now that the USSR no longer
exists, Israel does not need a Superpower sponsor to body block
the other superpower.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-07-30 12:47pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Stravo wrote:I was never comfortable with the way Israel ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS tries to link their struggle with 9/11 and the war on terror.

They've been fighting Al-Fatah (Arafat's old group from the 60s), PLO,
Hezbollah, and what not since their creation in 1948, they've had tractors
with farmers run over secretly planted landmines, they've had suicide
bombings, etc etc etc etc etc, they've been fighting terror for fifty plus
years continously, while we just entered the game in 2001...

And since 1948 they have been occupying territory, expanding, bulldozing peoples homes to make room for Jewish settlements, making the Palistinians second class citizens... Shit this sounds like Nazi Germany, I do believe the words "never again" have speial meaning for them, but right after they are released from Nazi death camps, they turn around and to the exact same fucking thing...

The Palistianians are so deely oppressed they have no choice but to resort to terrorism.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-30 01:08pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Shit this sounds like Nazi Germany

Shit, the Egyptians were using Poison gas against the Saudi Arabian troops
fighting against them in Yemen. Yes, nobody ever tells anyone about that
little known fact, that the Egyptians in the 60s tried to invade and conquer
Yemen for Nasser, or how the Egyptians gassed their enemies there.

Of course, all the evils in the middle east are caused by the big, bad, Jews,
who have been building a nation from some of the shittiest land in the
middle east, and making the desert bloom with irrigation projects instead
of trying to conquer shitholes hundreds of miles away

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-07-30 01:11pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Shit this sounds like Nazi Germany
Shit, the Egyptians were using Poison gas against the Saudi Arabian troops
fighting against them in Yemen. Yes, nobody ever tells anyone about that
little known fact, that the Egyptians in the 60s tried to invade and conquer
Yemen for Nasser, or how the Egyptians gassed their enemies there.

Of course, all the evils in the middle east are caused by the big, bad, Jews,
who have been building a nation from some of the shittiest land in the
middle east, and making the desert bloom with irrigation projects instead
of trying to conquer shitholes hundreds of miles away

Red herring shep.

Oh and strawman as well. You really should stop using those.

The bit on egypt is a red herring and has no bearing on this conversation.

And I never said that middle easts problems were caused by the Jews. Moron

I was pointing out parellels between the Isrealis(sp) and of all people the nazis.

If you cant address my argument, STFU.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-07-30 01:15pm

Let's face it... there is nothing that the US or any other 'Western' country can do to stop the fighting in the Mid-East.

Why?

Because it's all one huge Family Feud between cousins over lands that their ancestors have been fighting over for centuries. The fighting only stops when someone bigger (Romans, Persians, etc.) conquered the region.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-30 01:19pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: And I never said that middle easts problems were caused by the Jews. Moron

Your bullshit:

And since 1948 they have been occupying territory, expanding, bulldozing peoples homes to make room for Jewish settlements, making the Palistinians second class citizens

Yeah yeah, the jews are responsible for the entire mess, because of their
evil evil responses to the Palestinian terror problem.

Shit, I don't know why the Israelis didn't do it the way Stalin did; just
deport every last single palestinian from their territories to Egypt or
Jordan the way Stalin did with the Volga Germans (who had lived there
for hundreds of years), or the Chechens in Grozny who rebelled against
him as German forces reached the Caucasus mountains.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-30 01:19pm

My thoughts on the Israelis has always been that they seemed to be suffering from a national abused child syndrome. They were abused by teh Germans so now they lash out and abuse others.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-30 01:23pm

Stravo wrote:My thoughts on the Israelis has always been that they seemed to be suffering from a national abused child syndrome. They were abused by teh Germans so now they lash out and abuse others.

Only the people who they're "abusing" routinely blow themselves up in
buses, shoot at Israelis, lob mortars and rockets onto civilians, etc etc.

Yeah. What a bunch of "innocents" the Palestinians are

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-07-30 01:24pm

MKSheppard wrote:just
deport every last single palestinian from their territories to Egypt or
Jordan.

Clown.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-30 01:26pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Stravo wrote:My thoughts on the Israelis has always been that they seemed to be suffering from a national abused child syndrome. They were abused by teh Germans so now they lash out and abuse others.

Only the people who they're "abusing" routinely blow themselves up in
buses, shoot at Israelis, lob mortars and rockets onto civilians, etc etc.

Yeah. What a bunch of "innocents" the Palestinians are

Where would Shep be without his strawmen?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-30 01:26pm

BoredShirtless wrote: Clown.

Oh that's right, nobody in the middle east wants the palestinians! Maybe because they're a bunch of murderous shitheads who cause violence wherever
they go!

I'm reminded of the time the PLO decided to have a nice little battle in
the middle of Tripoli when they were in Libya.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-30 01:28pm

Stravo wrote: Where would Shep be without his strawmen?

Do me a fucking favor; Read the following book:

then get back to me. The Palestinians were doing the same old shit
back in the 1960s, well BEFORE the West bank and Gaza were taken
during the Six Day War, only they got their kicks by planting anti-tank
mines in Israeli farmers' fields instead of going to Allah on a crowded
Jerusalem bus

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-30 01:32pm

Mind pointing out precisely where I said the Palestinians were innocent? At the same time prove that the Israelis are purely victims in this mess.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-07-30 01:35pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: And I never said that middle easts problems were caused by the Jews. Moron
Your bullshit:

And since 1948 they have been occupying territory, expanding, bulldozing peoples homes to make room for Jewish settlements, making the Palistinians second class citizens
Yeah yeah, the jews are responsible for the entire mess, because of their
evil evil responses to the Palestinian terror problem.

Shit, I don't know why the Israelis didn't do it the way Stalin did; just
deport every last single palestinian from their territories to Egypt or
Jordan the way Stalin did with the Volga Germans (who had lived there
for hundreds of years), or the Chechens in Grozny who rebelled against
him as German forces reached the Caucasus mountains.

So expanding ones territory is a response to terror? WHen you bulldoze people homes to make room for your own settlers, and kick people out of their homes, do you not expect them to fight?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-07-30 01:36pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Stravo wrote:My thoughts on the Israelis has always been that they seemed to be suffering from a national abused child syndrome. They were abused by teh Germans so now they lash out and abuse others.

Only the people who they're "abusing" routinely blow themselves up in
buses, shoot at Israelis, lob mortars and rockets onto civilians, etc etc.

Yeah. What a bunch of "innocents" the Palestinians are

Never said they were innocent. BUt in a way, almost justified. Sure they shouldnt be attacking civilians. But the palistinian death toll is far higher than the Isreali one.

Generally killing children that throw rocks at tanks is not acceptable either.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-30 01:37pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: So expanding ones territory is a response to terror? WHen you bulldoze people homes to make room for your own settlers, and kick people out of their homes, do you not expect them to fight?

Newsflash: Bulldozing Arab homes only happens when select criteria are
in effect:

When there's a big fucking battle going on and the Palestinian gunmen are using said houses as cover; IE, Jenin
When the family of a suicide bomber's house is nuked because of their
relative blowing himself up.

If you don't want your house bulldozed, then dont fucking let Achmed
your cousin, blow himself up and dozens of Israelis on a crowded bus...
simple as that.