Shrub working on defining marriage as purely heterosexual

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Worlds Spanner
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Post by Worlds Spanner »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Hey Shrubby, how about you violate the establishment clause publicly! Oh and while you are at it, why not spit in the face of the equal protection act! :roll: :evil:

Fucking asshole.

If an amendment doesnt go through, there will be a constitutional challenge, and guess what... SCOTUS will probably strike down something so blatantly discriminatory.
Amendments are changes to the constitution.

If the amendment passes it will overrule the establishment clause with regard to this issue.

At least that's what I recall from my poor con law education.
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Post by Iceberg »

Well, it's official. George W. Bush is trying to drive himself into religious-far-right irrelevance. This goes beyond legislation - he is attempting to change the very fabric of the nation's highest law to suit his twisted religious whims.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

*this* is how he drops 40% approval in a yr.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Iceberg wrote:Well, it's official. George W. Bush is trying to drive himself into religious-far-right irrelevance. This goes beyond legislation - he is attempting to change the very fabric of the nation's highest law to suit his twisted religious whims.
I think you expect too much if you don't think people would support him.
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Post by Iceberg »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Well, it's official. George W. Bush is trying to drive himself into religious-far-right irrelevance. This goes beyond legislation - he is attempting to change the very fabric of the nation's highest law to suit his twisted religious whims.
I think you expect too much if you don't think people would support him.
Probably right. Goddammit, is nobody capable of learning from history? The last time we tried to encode somebody's twisted idea of morality into the Constitution, the result was a decade of soaring organized crime, political corruption and widespread disrespect for the law. The effects of Prohibition echo to this day. And Bush wants to take us back down that road!? This must be fought.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I wouldn't expect social chaos if Bush hurts the gays and lesbians with this legislation. America is quite accustomed to hurting gays and lesbians.
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Post by Iceberg »

Darth Wong wrote:I wouldn't expect social chaos if Bush hurts the gays and lesbians with this legislation. America is quite accustomed to hurting gays and lesbians.
In 1919, America was quite accustomed to marginalizing, demonizing and prohibiting alcohol. And yet, actual, Constitutional Prohibition caused greater social unrest than had occurred since the Civil War. It may not have had such a great effect if the Vollmer Act had not been passed, giving teeth to a previously toothless Amendment. The 18th Amendment was expected to be something that every American would rally behind, a final effort that would forever extinguish the flame of Demon Rum within the borders of the United States. Instead, it was the most disastrous experiment in Constitutional activism in the history of our country.
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Post by darthdavid »

*rage building, can't say anything, bush cyberspies, drag me away, if, say what thinking* :x :evil: :x
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Post by Iceberg »

Pre-Prohibition, 36 States had severely restricted or entirely prohibited alcohol. Within five years of the repeal of Prohibition, not a single state had any temperance laws on the books.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Iceberg wrote:Pre-Prohibition, 36 States had severely restricted or entirely prohibited alcohol. Within five years of the repeal of Prohibition, not a single state had any temperance laws on the books.
OK, but what kind of civil unrest would Bush's homophobic bullshit cause? I can't really see any, since gays and lesbians (contrary to the claims of the homophobes) do not have a collective history of serious immorality (by which I mean violence, hurting others, etc), unlike their enemies.
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Post by RedImperator »

Darth Wong wrote:Except that people already regard unions and marriages as being the same thing, and have for a very long time. "Marriage" is simply the English word for a concept which presently cuts across cultures and races and religions. "Union" is a much more generic word, which is precisely why "marriage" has been and is still called "marriage".

Removing the word from civil marriages would represent an enormous concession to the legion of assholes who think that a civil marriage isn't a "real" marriage. Appeasement is no way to deal with these donkey-fuckers.
The reason I suggest that is that it entirely saves the state the trouble of defining what "marriage" is--frankly, the state's legitimate business in regards to marriage's legal status stops at defining what rights the legal contract confers anyway, so why not call it a civil union or civil partnership contract and let the individuals involved decide what marriage is. Though I can see some problems with that--for example, business partners who get "married" in order to gain legal immunity from testifying against each other. And perhaps you have a point in saying marriage is a universal human concept and there's no need to replace it with some legalese.

Onto the issue of the Constitutional amendment. Firstly, don't panic. There have been, IIRC, some 10,000 proposed amendments to the Constitution, only 27 went through. Of those, 12 were passed while the Founding Fathers were still alive and politically active, one took 200 years to ratify, and one of them was passed explicitly to repeal another one. This amendment, assuming it even makes it out of committee, needs 2/3 of both houses to vote for it in order for it to even get to the ratifying stage, and if you think there's a reasonable chance of that happening, I invite you to look at the partisan breakdown of the U.S. Congress. Finally 37 states have to ratify it.

And in all fairness, I should point out that from what I read of the article, Bush is not trying to push a Constitutional amendment (the President has no part in the amendment process, though he can use his bully pulpit to encourage it along). He's assigned government lawyers to find a Constitutional justification for a Federal law defining marriage. That's an atroious enough violation of state sovereignty as it is, but he has nothing to do with the proposed amendment.

The Defense of Marriage Act, by the way, does not forbid gay marriages. What it does do is exempt states that don't have gay marriage from the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution, which would otherwise force them to honor gay marriages from other states (that's why people used to go Reno to get divorced: the other states had to respect Nevada's much looser divorce laws, even if the divorced couple did not meet the requirements for a legal divorce in their home state).
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Post by Bob McDob »

RedImperator wrote:Certain liberal Protestant denominations allow gays to marry, but unless they live in Vermont or Hawaii, those marriages aren't legally recognized.
Funny, I was under the impression we made an amendment to the state constitution outlawing gay marriage back in 1998.
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Post by RedImperator »

Bob McDob wrote:
RedImperator wrote:Certain liberal Protestant denominations allow gays to marry, but unless they live in Vermont or Hawaii, those marriages aren't legally recognized.
Funny, I was under the impression we made an amendment to the state constitution outlawing gay marriage back in 1998.
I could very well be wrong about that. I confess to not having intimate knowledge of Hawaiian or Vermonter state politics.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

A current AOL poll has 51% of those polled against gay marriage, 42% for, and 5% undecided. Where the other 2% went, I don't know.
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Post by darthdavid »

It's aol, What do you expect?
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Post by Drewcifer »

CNN has a poll going as well (but it does add up; AOL's might be because of rounding).

"Should marriage be legally defined as only a union between a man and a woman? "

Out of ~414,000 votes, 44% yay, 56% nay.
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Post by Edi »

Worlds Spanner wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Hey Shrubby, how about you violate the establishment clause publicly! Oh and while you are at it, why not spit in the face of the equal protection act! :roll: :evil:

Fucking asshole.

If an amendment doesnt go through, there will be a constitutional challenge, and guess what... SCOTUS will probably strike down something so blatantly discriminatory.
Amendments are changes to the constitution.

If the amendment passes it will overrule the establishment clause with regard to this issue.

At least that's what I recall from my poor con law education.
No. If two clauses of the Constitution are in direct conflict, neither one automatically overrules the other (if both grant freedoms), but instead the courts must decide which one gets precedence in any given case, because you're dealing with two equally powerful but opposed statutes, and the determination is impossible to make based only on the written law. They'll have to use first principles, and if such an amendment is ever passed, you can expect any such legal battles in the courts to get extremely brutal and ugly, and it'd also be guaranteed Supreme Court material.

On the other hand, it shouldn't be that difficult to determine, since the 1st Amendment guarantees religious freedom and freedom of expression, and the proposed new one would not grant any freedoms, but instead would restrict other existing ones that are defined in the Constitution (because this would be respecting religion, expressly forbidden in the 1st Amendment). There would really be no choice but to rule in favor of the 1st Amendment, though like I said, the fight would be utterly ruthless and brutal.

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Post by Slayen »

Ya know, there used to be a time when i didn't have much of a problem with bush. That time was yesterday. Today.... well..... lets just say my opinions have shifted :evil:
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Post by RedImperator »

That's an interesting way of looking at it, Edi. But a narrow reading of the First Amendment says nothing about marriage, and the establishment clause only applies to Congess (and the states, through the equal protection clause in the 14th Amendment), not other parts of the Constitution. A conservative SCOTUS, I believe, would interpret such an amendment as unambiguously forbidding the Federal government from recognizing gay marriages. Whether it allowed the states to do so would be another matter (that's where the motherfucker of a legal fight would come in, and I suspect the current Court would end up ruling in favor of the states unless the language of the amendment was so tight that there was no way to wiggle out of it--and then the four liberals plus O'Connor might STILL vote that the states could determine their own policy).
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Post by darthdavid »

Clinton never pulled this crap.
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Re: Shrub working on defining marriage as purely heterosexua

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Durandal wrote:
Suuuuure. America isn't "polarized" on the issue of homosexuality; it just likes to make sure that homosexuals don't have the same rights as heterosexuals.
They can't carry an amendment on the issue, and nothing else is legal. It's really just hot air--which rather elegantly meshes with the way he dealt with the Paleocons in the same press conference to show some adroit political manoeuvring on the issue.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Edi wrote: No. If two clauses of the Constitution are in direct conflict, neither one automatically overrules the other (if both grant freedoms), but instead the courts must decide which one gets precedence in any given case, because you're dealing with two equally powerful but opposed statutes, and the determination is impossible to make based only on the written law. They'll have to use first principles, and if such an amendment is ever passed, you can expect any such legal battles in the courts to get extremely brutal and ugly, and it'd also be guaranteed Supreme Court material.
This is not exactly true. The way our system works, an amendment can be specifically written to override another section of the constitution, either eliminating that section, or for the specific purpose, creating an exception, if that exception is specifically enunciated in the amendment.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Drewcifer wrote:CNN has a poll going as well (but it does add up; AOL's might be because of rounding).

"Should marriage be legally defined as only a union between a man and a woman? "

Out of ~414,000 votes, 44% yay, 56% nay.
Not surprising.

People have lost sight of what marriage is. Despite the ignorant or downright dishonest bleatings of the fundies and other assorted homophobes, marriage is a legal concept in secular society. It cuts across lines of race, culture, and religion, and has done so since the founding of the nation. As a government-recognized legal principle, it should not discriminate. It's as simple as that.

Christians add extra meaning to the definition of marriage. That's fine for them, but the fact remains that marriage itself is a secular and legal construct, upon which the Christian church has no more exclusive claim than my auto mechanic.

Having said that, the homophobes' claim that it traditionally refers to a man and woman is correct. However, if "tradition" is the only argument they can mount, then they have no argument at all. The current definition is discriminatory, hence it is a violation of human rights.
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Post by kojikun »

tradition where? tradition isnt just a christian thing. native americans have
had same sex marriages for a very long time. ancient greeks were quite
keen on men hooking up with men (i dont know how their marriage
ceremonies went tho so i cant say). tradition is a relative term, as well as a
stupid term. we live by our own makings here and now not in the past. fuck
tradition.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

darthdavid wrote:Clinton never pulled this crap.
I remember Clinton very clearly stating that marriage was between a man and woman only.
What I don't remember is when, or in what context, exactly....
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