Mark, I was attempting to distill this thread down to its most basic points because the posts were becoming too fucking long. You have responsed by re-inserting every point of minutae, often with not-so-subtle insinuations that you think I'm ducking them, ie- comments like "I still await a response". This kind of tactic is unreasonable and is no way to argue if you want to pretend that you're not a fucking asshole. Do you understand where I'm coming from?
I did not claim that turbolaser energy is incapable of vaporizing or even deforming a liquid wall.
Yes you did, for a period of "several seconds". Since it can vapourize solid armour in a fraction of a second, you are arguing that this ridiculous "liquid wall" of yours is orders of magnitude tougher than the best armour that SW engineers can design. What part of this escapes your grasp?
The enormous surface tension holds it together for a short time, and then it fails.
Don't be an idiot. When dealing with fluid mechanics and high-temperature gases, "a few seconds" is
not a "short time". It is, in fact, a near-eternity to retain any kind of shape against expansion pressure. This is quite literally like saying you can detonate a nuke inside a puddle and the puddle might hold together for a few seconds.
Might I quote you,
Darth Wong wrote:[The tiny projectile theory] is the only one which makes sense, and the fact that none of the books describe it hardly weakens it against all of these other mechanisms which are also not described in the books
The fact that the bolt remains coherent when the barrel is not pointing along it's path (for a short time) and then
vanishes (See the first shot of an exterior blaster cannon at the Battle of Yavin in
A New Hope)
Thus disproving your theory, which cannot explain this phenomenon without the ridiculous notion that a liquid blob can retain its liquid state and fixed shape for several seconds against ultra high-energy internal gases which vapourize SW hull armour in a fraction of a second.
The fact that a turbolaser bolt hit an X-Wing engine and "splattered" in a distinctly liquid-like pattern:
Again, this is consistent with a beam being scattered, but totally inconsistent with your liquid blob theory since the liquid blob will explode the instant it is freed from your magical containment tube. A "long time" when dealing with such energies is a millisecond, not several seconds.
I noted the incidents from The Krytos Trap and Isard's Revenge as an example of what happens when turbolasers come in contact with the hull of a ship. Damage is incurred, and sometimes even the hull itself melts, or is blasted into a "condensed metal mist, like the down from a silvery bird".
I then suggested that it is possible that if you cool the transformed tibanna to temperatures such that it would not melt the hull once it came in contact, the liquid may lose it's exotic properties.
And I reiterate that you might as well call this "magic containment mojo" rather than inventing pseudoscientific terms to describe it, because it has no basis whatsoever in either official literature or any other source. There is nothing whatsoever to support your interpretation of a liquid shell.
I also noted that the heat of vaporization of the liquid tibanna may be higher than the melting point of the hull.
Since melting point is a temperature, and heat of vapourization is a specific energy, that is a ridiculously ignorant statement which does not warrant response. Do not waste my time.
So, when turbolaser blasts came tumbling in, the liquid tibanna may heat to a temperature of X degrees. At X degrees, the exotic tibanna liquid remains liquid. However, at X degrees, the hull of the star destroyer might be past it's melting point and turn into a mass of congealed metal threads.
Frankly, I see no reason to continue this bullshit, since you are unwilling or unable to grasp the fact that the bolt's shape is retained even after losing this containment tube of yours, and that behaviour is totally inconsistent with the very concept of liquidity. Therefore, your theory is wrong, and none of your evasions can change that. What you are proposing is NOT a liquid shape, since I have shown quite clearly that the properties of liquidity do not fit the situation. What you are proposing is a SOLID shell with plasma inside. Rigidity and retention of shape against force is a property of SOLIDS; this is, in fact, the very definition of a solid! I've tried to be patient, but you are quite frankly acting like an idiot now. The definition of solidity is hardly an exotic scientific concept.
Before you deride the TOT as "magical containment mojo" as you put it, I would like to see you explain, using modern scientific terms, the beam theory.
A beam of unstable high-energy lightspeed particles which interact with each other and which decay over time. No containment tube is required, nor is a magical substance which is orders of magnitude tougher than any SW armour. All we need is some kind of exotic particle whose existence is explicitly stated in the literature. Compare this to your containment tube and liquid blob with rigidity, neither of which are mentioned anywhere in the literature and the latter of which contradicts itself.
the (lightspeed) containment beams are shut off (notice that the bolt is a tiny bit thicker. Now that there's no containment tube, the turbolaser plasma expands like any other heated substance)
[/quote]
Except that this doesn't happen when bolts ricochet or are splintered, which is the entire point I was making. You claim that the loss of this "containment tube" means immediate expansion, yet you simultaneously claim that the liquid blob can hold itself together and maintain its shape "for several seconds". Which is it, or do you intend to continue using two mutually contradictory versions of the theory to explain different situations?
Darth Wong wrote:It is one thing to interpret a word in a non-literal way: lasers could very easily be changed to describe other kinds of energy beams
[l(ight) a(mplification by) s(timulated) e(mission of) r(adiation).]
It's very specific.
And it is also not what we observe from the films, so don't waste my time. The point is that a lightspeed beam of exotic particles is far closer to the proper definition of a laser than a liquid blob will ever be.
The turbolaser construct shines along a specific wavelength due to the stimulated emission of photons which occurs in the liquid wall. This is why turbolaser bolts are sometimes referred to as "laser pulses" or "laser bolts."
What you are talking about is mere thermal emission, which is not a laser. Anything and everything will emit photons when it's heated up; this does not make it a laser. Do you honestly not understand this?
Official literature, unlike canon, is subordinate to science,
And this, Mike, is perhaps where we truly deviate. Please show me the Lucasfilm's canon/official policy quote that says the fictional Star Wars universe always must be constrained by our current understanding of physics?
Don't be a wise-ass. You reject official literature when it contradicts science, which is why you don't accept that lasers glow green and bounce off magnetic seals. If you allowed official literature to completely contradict science at will, then you would have no problem accepting that lasers do this in SW. Rather than formulate a consistent policy on the use of evidence, you seem to alter it depending on what point you want to make.
No, Mike. It's a piece of evidence with a clearly defined place in the Lucasfilm canon/official hierarchy. You reject it out of hand because of the implications that it has.
"Appeal to motive" fallacy. Your entire "TOT" only
exists because you, too, reject official literature if it is clearly contradicted by our knowledge of physics. Then you turn around and pretend that this policy is somehow unreasonable when it is used against you.
Quote from the
Official Fact File
Star Wars Official Fact File wrote:THE POWER OF LIGHT: Like most energy weapons, turbolasers fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The 'bolt effect' seen when a turbolaser is fired is actually a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed. The light emitted by such bolts depletes the overall energy content of a beam, limiting it's range. Thus, turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the energy beam, reducing waste glow.
The
Official Fact File, the same source (the same
article) which describes the turbolaser bolt as plasma, and says that blasters and turbolasers are "not all that dissimilar,"
also uses the ICS information, nearly quoting it word for word.
Then you should agree that a turbolaser is a lightspeed energy beam, not a containment tube carrying a liquid blob.
Despite what you claim, I am not disregarding the ICS explanation at all, in fact (in my post I made on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 11:36 pm) I broke down the ICS explanation sentence by sentence and explained how it's interpreted in TOT.
Your point is invalid.
Actually,
your point is ignorant. A forcefield is not an energy beam, any more than a piece of PVC piping is an energy beam.
This depends on how long the bolt is in flight, the relative density and charge of the turbolaser plasma and the liquid wall and any effects the magnetic wall may have on the bolt (I assume you're talking about the trash compactor scene).
You honestly don't seem to understand that a liquid object cannot retain rigid shape against force BY DEFINITION, never mind for several seconds. I can't believe I am being forced to actually explain this. You also claim that the liquid is actually MORE rigid and MORE resistant to vapourization when it's HOTTER, which once again defies everything we understand about physics. That is why I say that you might as well just call it "magic containment mojo" instead of abusing terms like "surface tension".
This is an example of an official reference stating that plasma is what is launched out of the barrel as a bolt. You claimed no such reference exists. This position is incorrect.
This official reference contradicts itself by also quoting the ICS, your ignorant claims of a forcefield being an "energy beam" notwithstanding. And for the umpteenth time, it is not even published in LFL's home country so it's not much of an official reference.
If you recant on this position, please indicate so.
Recant on what? My claim that there's no good source for your theory? You have provided MORE evidence for that by showing how your own favourite source contradicts itself on the matter. Once more, for the record: a forcefield is NOT an energy beam. The two concepts are COMPLETELY different in physics, by definition. They are no more equivalent than an energy beam is to my left foot.
Darth Wong wrote:Ramp-up delay, not wavelength. Why does it always take a similar amount of time for a blaster bolt to "reach" its destination regardless of range?
I responded with observations made by
SPOOFE (emphasis mine):
SPOOFE wrote:your screen caps of the Naboo transport being shot at demonstrates another interesting phenomenon... in that scene, you can see energy blasts travelling faster than turbolaser shots seen in, say, TESB. In fact, I think it's well-known that there's a HUGE variable between the propogation speeds of blaster bolts throughout the series. What would cause this? A mechanism of the targetting computer? Why would it ever be desireable to slow down the speed of your blast?
I also noted in that thread, the following:
Marc Xavier wrote:His Divine Shadow wrote:Another theory on massed observations of weapons fire shows a consistant delay in fired shots, they always take 2-4(sometimes 6) frames to travel to their targets
Consistent? "2-4(sometimes 6)" represents a variation of as much as 300 percent.
Thank you for providing yet more information against your own theory. An interference pattern in a blaster bolt would be difficult to precisely control. If it's generated by deliberately mismatched frequencies and phases, even the tiniest timing error could significantly change the propagation rate of the visible pulse. However, the speed of a moving object with mass (ie- your liquid blob with plasma) is controlled by the force applied to it by the launch mechanism, and that will be far easier to control. That's why you can have damage
before visible impact in some cases (a phenomenon which your theory is utterly unable to even explain, since you claim that the invisible portion of the beam is a mere containment field and the energy is locked up inside the visible bolt).
If you recant on this position, please indicate so.
Why would I want to recant on a position which you just helped me reinforce?
Darth Wong wrote:Well, the railgun on top of the AT-TE is an example of an observed projectile weapon in SW which looks just like a blaster bolt. So it demonstrates, if nothing else, that you can't easily tell the difference
I responded with:
Marc Xavier wrote:It "looks just like a blaster bolt." Is the projectile that is supposed to be inside of it directly observed? How do you know it is a railgun and not a blaster? What distinguishes it? I would like to see this blaster bolt, please. Do you have screenshots?
I still await a response.
Do not piss me off, asshole. Your smart-ass behaviour is seriously getting on my nerves. I did not respond to this point because it was not important, and unlike you, I was hoping to keep these posts from growing to unreadable length. However, the AOTC ICS clearly labels the weapon on top of an AT-TE as a projectile weapon, with mass-driver coils.
Darth Wong wrote:Since I'm too lazy to answer this long post while looking up that one as well, I will simply point out that it is either a splintering effect of some sort (meaning that it does not remain cohesive) or it is superheated material being blown off the engine.
I responded with:
Marc Xavier wrote:Could you please explain how non-exotic superheated X-wing hull material glows green? As I've heard many times, green is not a thermal color.
I still await a response.
You are going to be awaiting a fucking boot up your ass if you keep up this kind of smart-ass attitude, asshole. If you think you can win a debate by lengthening every goddamned post until we start debating with essays, you will quickly learn that people aren't dumb enough to buy into that method.
The point remains that the bolt in that incident did not ricochet cleanly, unlike a blaster bolt, hence it represents another case of blasters and turbolasers behaving differently. I merely proposed that as one of two possible explanations because I admitted up-front that I wasn't interested in examining the minutae of that incident right now, and you seized upon that as an excuse to nitpick the possibilities I threw out. This kind of dishonest debate technique is rude, deceptive, and bound to generate a hostile response, which you will no doubt blame on my bad manners rather than your quick slide from reasoned debate to dishonest bullshit.
Darth Wong wrote:The generation of sufficient light will blot out whatever's behind it, particularly on film where you can saturate the medium. Try again.
I responded with:
Marc Xavier wrote:Are you contending that the green bolt here
and the red bolt here
are so bright that they blot out what's behind it? The red bolt is not as bright as the white explosion behind it, yet it is opaque.
Since we have seen cases where the same kinds of bolts are NOT opaque, we have also seen that opacity is not a fixed characteristic of such weapons, hence your point is a waste of time. We could debate on the reasons for differing opacity of different bolts all day, but they still do not support one theory over another. If anything, since you tie the opacity to your liquid theory, the fact that it varies from bolt to bolt disproves YOUR point, not mine.
I still await a response. If you recant on this position, please indicate so.
I am getting seriously pissed off with your smart-ass way of conducting yourself in this thread, asshole. The gloves come off next round if you don't knock this shit off.
Darth Wong wrote:But it could conceivably interact oddly with a volumetric shielding effect.
I responded with:
Marc Xavier wrote:Could you expound on this a little, please?
I still await a response.
[/quote]
And you will wait a long fucking time since this has been mentioned elsewhere on this board and I have officially run out of patience for your nitpickery. Next time, compose a short, sweet response dealing with the major points and stop acting like an asshole.