Battle Scenarios

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I made this thread for making up possible and hypothetical combat scenarios between the Empire and the Federation, like in the "Trekkie Combat, Trek Combat, and Real Combat" page. Like that page, you can also throw in a Trekkie fantasy and a DS9 writer's solution.

[Coyote]

You mean like little fanfic vignettes, brief stories outlining conflicts between SW & ST forces and the like? Like the thing I wrote for "Slave One vs. Borg Tactical Cube"..?

[HemlockGrey]

Board USS Defiant

Mission Requirements: The USS Defiant has been spotted patrolling the area outside a small Fedaration outpost. The frigate Annhilator has been dispatched to seize it, commandeer the phase-cloak drive, and interrogate the officer corp for information.

Intel Report: The Defiant is fully armed and the phase-cloak is operational. The small outpost has a couple of runabouts and one or two phaser banks to defend itself. A Federation response team will arrive in about six hours if a situation develops.

Equipment and Manpower: The Nebulon-B Annhilator, it's complement of TIE Fighters, plus five gunboats and two stormtrooper transports.

Trekkie Fantasy #1

The Annhilator arrives and engages the Defiant. The gunboats and stormtrooper transports are destroyed by the outpost's phaser bank. The runabouts easily outmatch and wipe out all the TIE Fighters while the Defiant easily destroys the Annhilator.

Imperials repelled, no Starfleet casualties.

Trekkie Fantasy #2

As soon as the Annhilator enters the system, the Defiant phase-cloaks, flies into the Annhilator, and wipes it out with a single quantom torpedo.

DS9 Solution

The Defiant is alerted that the Annhilator will arrive in twenty minutes. No explanation is given as to who alerted them and how it was possible to uncover that particular informaton. Sisko alerts the outpost and summons the command crew to a brainstorming session.

The session takes ten minutes. Personalities clash and Sisko preaches about how they are the 'only hope', although it is never made clear what exactly they are the only hope for. It is eventually decided that the Defiant will resist the attackers.

Over the next twenty minutes, we see the crew getting ready for battle, and we cut to several scenes of the command staff bickering amongst each other. Sisko continues to preach. We are introduced to the runabout pilots in a vain effort to make us feel as if they will have some effect on the outcome of the episode.

Finally, the Annhilator arrives. It is lacking the gunboats and only has a few TIEs due to budget restraints. The runabouts defeat the TIEs, suffering only one tragic casualty. Although it is never shown onscreen, a transport manages to disgorge several Stormtroopers, who, due to budget reasons, charge into battle, blasting blindly. Not surprisingly, the first resistance they meet is composed completely of high-ranking officers mixed in with a few nameless ensigns.

Cut to slow-mo. The ensigns are all cut down, but strangely, none of the command crew is scathed except for a few cuts and bruises. The Defiant fires a few phasers and a torpedo, and, explosions being costly, the Annhilator flees into hyperspace.

Imperials repelled. Starfleet losses minimal.

Realistic Mission

The Annhilator arrives at the outpost without warning. It opens fire on the station and destroys it while taking only a few return hits. The gunboats and stormtrooper tranports open fire on the Defiant with ion cannons and manages to disable it before it can phase-cloak or warp. They then join the TIEs in finishing off the runabouts.

After the runabouts are destroyed, the stormtrooper transports dock on the hull of the Defiant. Thermal detonators are used to breach the hull. The interior is flooded with gas. The stormtroopers board the ship and defeat the few remaining defenders.

Mission accomplished. The phase-cloak is recovered, top personnel are seized, and Imperial casualties are limited to a TIE fighter or two and a few stormtroopers.

[HemlockGrey]

This thread is too cool to let die.

Bump.

[seanrobertson]

I made this thread for making up possible and hypothetical combat scenarios between the Empire and the Federation, like in the "Trekkie Combat, Trek Combat, and Real Combat" page. Like that page, you can also throw in a Trekkie fantasy and a DS9 writer's solution.

Oooh, oooh!

Good one.

I might be deviating from the thread in saying so, but along similar
lines, years ago I used to think a wing of Defiants might have
very good chances against an ISD. It brokedown something like
this...and remember, this was YEARS ago, well before the _ICS_,
perhaps even before TPM!

The ISD's shielding was calculated by figuring asteroids of the 500
terajoule variety struck once every five seconds for about three days
straight. It was meant to be generous, albeit the fact that, at the time, we did have evidence that larger asteroids had nailed the ISDs ("multi-megaton compression bombs").

Anyway, that gave the ISD a total shield strength--more like endurance--
of 25 million terajoules. At the time, I didn't know anything of the
_Slave One_ quantification of heavy TL output, and I tended to regard
the heavy guns as something almost exclusively used against fixed
targets (planets) anyway. I was also unaware that heavy shots appeared
to have been fired onscreen in ROTJ, but even if I had been aware of
as much, I probably would've pointed to the fact that planetary defense
weapons--supposedly comparable to the weapons on ISDs in output--could
knock ISDs out with single shots. Anyway, I digress...(ahh, the old
days! LOL).

I think I let the shield's total energy fielding capacity be synonymous
with its burst capacity, which might actually be higher (peak dissipation
rates). I rated the light turbolasers at about 2,000 terajoules/shot
IIRC. Maybe 3,000?

I gave the Defiants 120 quantum torpedos, each of which delivered
64 megatons to the target. Pulse phasers might've been ignored altogether. The D's shields were similar to the Enterprise-D's
in "Relics," capable of withstanding about 100,000 terajoules before
failure. I ignored ablative armor.

Then I figured how many passes it'd take before a Defiant would
be realistically destroyed, and how many shots she could get off
prior to destruction. By those figures about 30-50 LTL shots
would wipe out the shields and kill a D. With a firing rate of 5 LTLs/sec,
and an accuracy of something like 50%, it'd take roughly 12-20 seconds
to kill each Defiant.

In that time, I generously assumed each D could fire 2 torpedos per second. Thus, you'd be looking at about 24-40 torpedos before
a Defiant was dust.

Finally, I figured out how many torpedos were required to do in an ISD.
Again, by those nos., with ea/ torpedo delivering about 270,000 terajoules
to the target, it's about 92 torpedos. So I guessed an attack wing of five
Defiants would "win," albeit with anywhere from 50-80% casualties.

It was over-simplified in many ways, GROSSLY, but it was fun to talk about at ASVS.

[Mr Bean]

Yep though thanks to Issard Revenge and ICS we have a much better figure of 30TT(30 HTL firing five times at 200 giga-tons each) as our minium low end

[tharkûn]

Realistic Mission

The Annhilator arrives at the outpost without warning. It opens fire on the station and destroys it while taking only a few return hits. The gunboats and stormtrooper tranports open fire on the Defiant with ion cannons and manages to disable it before it can phase-cloak or warp. They then join the TIEs in finishing off the runabouts.

After the runabouts are destroyed, the stormtrooper transports dock on the hull of the Defiant . Thermal detonators are used to breach the hull. The interior is flooded with gas. The stormtroopers board the ship and defeat the few remaining defenders.

Mission accomplished. The phase-cloak is recovered, top personnel are seized, and Imperial casualties are limited to a TIE fighter or two and a few stormtroopers.

Assuming even limited compotency for the realistic scenario the Defiant's crew would realize they are dead in the water and would begin doing what all realistic officers do in that situation ... break out the clubs, axes, explosives, magnets, etc. and bash the electronics. If we assume the feddies act realistically they'd most certainly destroy the phase cloak if not blow the warp core in an attempt to destroy the shuttles/frigate.

Boarding and capture missions are *very* rare. If you want them to work you normally have to use covert ops and grab then bash. Capturing technology intact is *quite* rare as the enemy knows its *well* worth their time to destroy it. Normally the only capture missions that work are those going after people (who aren't normally destroyed quickly without qualms) ... even then you normally want to send in some spec ops to secure the objective before laying in with the big guns.

Realistic result ... Defiant killed (assuming the Imps can hit on the first shot before the Defiant knows they are coming and can react), phase cloak destroyed, possible loss of numerous of transports when the Defiant blows its warp core.

[HemlockGrey]

Question.

Have we ever seen the crew of any Federation starship slamming electronics with clubs when their ships was captured? No, they haven't.

And, how are they going to overload the warp core or set up a self-destruct when all the systems are down, thanks to the ion cannons?

[tharkûn]

Question.

Have we ever seen the crew of any Federation starship slamming electronics with clubs when their ships was captured? No, they haven't.

Ahh but what we see is the DS9 writer's version. If we expect things to happen realisticly then people would smash them with clubs. Its only the rank stupidity of the writers making them dunces.

And, how are they going to overload the warp core or set up a self-destruct when all the systems are down, thanks to the ion cannons?
The warp core relies on *active* system to *not* go boom (really lousy egineering) if you disable ships system ... the warp core goes boom. How many times have we seen a ship's warp core blow from taking shots from all the way across the ship?

In any event the ship is powered by antimatter. All you have to do is introduce some matter and you get a rather nice explosion. Remember ST ships are flying powderkegs in disguise.

[HemlockGrey]

Well, had I an edit button, I'd change it so that the stormtroopers embark *immediatly* instead of blowing up the rest of the runabouts, thereby recovering as much stuff as possible.

[Evil Jerk]

Ahh but what we see is the DS9 writer's version. If we expect things to happen realisticly then people would smash them with clubs. Its only the rank stupidity of the writers making them dunces.

I'd imagine that realistically means how both sides would act based on precident.
Trekkie fantasies involve Starfleet winning very easily.
DS9 writers involve Starfleet winning easily after much theatrics
Realism involves Starfleet getting it's ass handed to it due to bad training and bad equipment.

[Howedar]

Hmm, what an interesting argument. Does "realistic Starfleet" take into account stupidity caused by writers, when they would presumably act differently?

Hmm....

[Sea Skimmer]

Hmm, what an interesting argument. Does "realistic Starfleet" take into account stupidity caused by writers, when they would presumably act differently?

Hmm....

I think we need to just assume what they do is the product of there piss poor years of training. Assuming they'd realistically not be trained to suppress basic instincts and common sense, also bring up the question if anyone could realistic design such flawed ships ect..

Should we assume warp cores wont blow up as often because you could so easily design something better? I don’t think so..

[tharkûn]

I think it does mean they act differently, look at Mike's examples:

They spread out and move swiftly through the forest, eventually reaching an elevated position. One of them uses a pair of simple optical binoculars to get a good look at the camp from a distance, since tricorder scans would give away their presence and location. Intel said that the prisoners were in the northeast block, but they can't see inside. The men set up a perimeter and wait, in the hopes that the Romulans will eventually move the prisoners and they'll be able to figure out roughly where they are.
When have Feddie personel *EVER* done a rescue mission with this much compotence?

The attackers take massive casualties, and while they are regrouping in the jungle for a second attack, the Imperial garrison begins using mortar-launched chemical weapons on them. Recognizing a hopeless tactical situation, the Federation commander surrenders to Imperial forces.

We have never seen the feddies behave with anything nearly as logical as all this, they clearly are breaking numerous precedints here. We have seen Sisko wreck equipment before (abeit in a half-assed manner). Its not that much of a stretch.

Well, had I an edit button, I'd change it so that the stormtroopers embark *immediatly* instead of blowing up the rest of the runabouts, thereby recovering as much stuff as possible.
Still wouldn't work. On a compotent ship as soon as you are boarded you move your security to the sensitive stuff and have someone with a deadman switch next to it ... assuming its so damn valuable you don't smash it just to be safe.

Board and captures work only whatever you are capturing cannot be easily and quickly destroyed. Especially if you are doing this overtly. Your best bet is likely to cut the ship open (rather than disable it and risk the warp core blowing when the active systems go down) and hope all the personel in position to destroy the cloak die due to lack of oxygen.

The only way you can board and expect sensitive equipment/data to be present is if its too valuable for the enemy to destroy or if its only useful to them and not to you (i.e. the DS1 plans), anything else requires a lightning fast raid, preferably in the middle of the "night" where the guys who would be able to easily destroy it are quickly killed before anyone knows exactly what is going on.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

How about, instad of realistic missions, we stick to Trekkie and the DS9 writer's solution.

My scenario: An ISD has been spotted over a Federation colony. There are about 100,000,000 people on the colony. The ISD has destroyed the planet's defenses, and will begin orbital ardment.

Federation equipment: Three GCSs.

Imperial equipment: One ISD, with 72 TIE Fighters, and all defenses ready for ardment.

Trekkie Fantasy #1

The GCSs fire quantum torpedoes, which destroy the ISD. mission accomlished in 5 seconds, zero casualties.

Trekkie Fantasy #2

The GCSs fire phasers at the "shield generators" on the bridge structure, and then take out the bridge. Mission accomplished in 24 seconds, zero casualties.

Trekkie Fantasy #3

One GCS goes up relly close to the ISD, and since it is immune to lasers, remains unscathed. It then beams a into the engine room, despite the shields and heawvy armor. Mission accomplished in 1 minute, 36 seconds, zero casualties.

Trekkie Fantasy #4

The scenario can't happen because in this Trekkie fantasy, ISDs are weak.
Mission accomplished before it started.

Trekkie Fantasy #5

One GCS uses a tractor beam to fling the planet into the ISD.
Mission accomplished in 3 minutes, 100 million casualties on the planet, which are ignored in the fantasy, because in the fantasy, you always destroy what you are trying to protect.

DS9 writer's solution

The 3 GCSs are replaced with the Defiant.
The two ships exchange fire for the first 5 minutes of the show, with all of the shots missing the target. Then, hte Defiant is hit by an HTL. Cut to commercial break. The Defiant careens out of control, lights on the surface go on and off, and the ISD goes back toward the planet, banking heavily when turning.

On the Defiant's bridge, the major characters and some nondescrepits are brainstorming an idea to get the ISD out of the system. Personalities clash, and a nondescrepit is introduced. The meeting is cut short when a stray asteroid is about to hit the Defiant, to get the viewers away rom the main plot. The phasers are discoved to be inoperable, and the Defiant appears to be doomed. Before it hits, the asteroid path is changed by another asteroid, and the crew breathes a sigh of relief. Cut to commercial break.

When the commercials end, the crew has found an idea. Data mumbles technobabble, and it is decided that "Quantum flux capacitence in the auxiliary warp core shall be re-disreibuted into the tractor beam to incite a reverse gravitic fluctuation around the ISD. Sisko spends five minutes giving his motivational speech. Then, the Defiant goes up to the ISD, which, for some reason, hasn't started ardment. It uses the effect, and sends hte ISD back into hyperspace. The crew cheers, and the credits roll. In next week's episode, a similar thing happens, but this idea isn't used.

[Coyote]

Responding to a distress call from a faraway outpost, StarFleet dispatches a Galaxy-class ship that we will, for the purpose of this scenario, call the USS Clinton. The Clinton arrives in the faraway system to find that a Fed research station monitoring oddball gravitic and temporal distortions on the outskirts of the Federation has been mysteriously blasted to ruin by soldiers of an unknown government. No ships are in the area, as near as they can tell.

...Because the ship that brought the soldiers, the ISD Broadsword, has dropped off its complement of troops and support elements, and is doing a quick patrol of the surrounding systems, mostly taking out automated deepspace monitors to silence the area. The crew of the ISD is sure that someone will come and investigate the loss of the spy station, which, for Sith's sake, they destroyed weeks ago. As soon as a ship enters the area, the ISD Broadsword will return within a few minutes. The Impies came through the local space distortion; no reinforcements are available but the ship carries its stock compliment of TIE fighters, bombers, and interceptors as well as dropships, more troops, etc.

OOB (That's "Order-of-Battle" to you National Guard guys):

Imperials:
250 stormtroopers, standard armor & supply packs, E-11 carbines.
2 E-WEBS w/crews.
12 Scout Troops / pistols, stock military speeder bikes, on patrol.
4 AT-STs w/crews on perimeter duty.
12 TIE fighters are available for air-ground support.
4 Arkayd Probe Droids on long-range patrol.

SPECIAL:
The Impies have captured 20 Federation 'scientists' (spies) and want to keep at least half of them alive for further interrogation. There are 4 3P0 droids doing POW processing and translating. A team of 6 Intelligence specialists are interrogating the prisoners with the help of 4 interrogator droids (ouch!). In addition, Intel has 2 R2 Astromech droids that have been tearing through the Federation computers; the Imperials have examined the information on Transporters, Replicators, and Cloaking Devices but have not been able to do anything with the info yet. They have captured eight operational tricorders and six 'dustbuster' phaser pistols.

One E-WEB and twelve troopers are securing the prisoners, and the AT-STs are near the camp. The prisoners are bound with manacles but have not been maltreated-- a very businesslike operation. The other E-WEB is set up on the roof of the small, one-story research station, with 360-degree coverage. They are surrounded by waist-high portable blast shields.

Federation:

150 regular Security Guys with Phaser Rifles.
20 Veteran Security Guys with Phaser Rifles & 'Pistols'.
2 Veteran Security Guys with Grenade Launchers.
2 Warp & Transporter capable shuttles with light phasers.
40 more regular Security guys as a reserve.

The Captain of the USS Clinton is no idiot, a veteran of the Dominion war she realizes this is not a time for peaceful contact. She deploys 150 of her regular compliment of Security guys with phaser rifles via transporter about two miles south of the camp, outside the patrol range of the speeder bikes but unknowingly in the patrol areas of the Probe Droids.

In addition, she deploys two shuttles to go around the planet and come up in the terrain, essentially flying nap-of-the-earth, to land 2 miles north of the site. The shuttles carry 10 Security guys each. These guys are also Dominion War vets and experienced with rigorous fighting and commando operations. Each team has one RPG, the Captain has allowed the commanders on the ground decide for themselves if the situation dictates the teams to operate together or seperately. The shuttle remain on call for extration or medical evacuation if needed. Security teams have tricorders and medical kits.

The Captain of the Clinton does not want to Transport anyone directly into the camp yet-- she doesn't know if these new arrivals are knowledgeable of the Transporter yet so she won't tip that hand unless she has to. But she has called up the technical schematics of the research station and can transport another 40 Security guys into it, armed with Dustbuster phaser pistols if it seems prudent. She wants to keep a sizeable force aboard the USS Clinton in case they have to repel boarding actions. The ship is on red alert, phasers and torpedoes loaded, non-essential personnel confined to quarters and remaining duty crew with sidearms. Still, she will attempt contact first before shooting, since this is Starfleet after all. Shields are up.

SPECIAL:
If the Captain of the USS Clinton requests help, a nearby (allied) Klingon K-11 Bird of Prey with an 8-man crew will arrive, cloaked and ready to do glorious battle.

TERRAIN:
Light, rolling hills made up of savannah grassland. A crawling man can expect reasonable cover from visual scanning up to 50 m away. The station is on the edge of a lightly wooded area. Trees are thick enough to hide one crouching man but movement between them is easily visible.

It is 9am local time, and the air is cool but not cold. Everyone is comfortable in shirtsleeve environment. There are no wild animals of consequence. The sky is clear and sunny, with sparse clouds. Local rocks do not affect sensors.

The properties of the ISD and a standard Galaxy-class cruiser are well known. Don't whine about the mismatch: given the types of people in charge of the Federation and Empire respectively, I think this is a very realistic deployment of available personnel and equipment.

CHOOSE YOUR CHAMPIONS! HAVE AT IT, TALLYHO AND GOOD HUNTING!

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

As an edit for my last post:

Because there's still half an hour left in the episode, the Defiant goes to DS9, but something happens, as filler.