Explanation for Federation pacifism?

[beyond hope]

This struck me while I was replying to another thread: we know that at some point in Trek's history there was a third world war, called the "Eugenics War," that Khan was a part of. The intent was to breed "supermen" for battle. What if, in the aftermath of this war, the program was reversed? Picard has made the statement about how they've "evolved beyond the need for revenge:" perhaps there's more to this than empty rhetoric? If humanity has been bred to be more passive, it would explain so much about the Federation.

[Stormbringer]

This struck me while I was replying to another thread: we know that at some point in Trek's history there was a third world war, called the "Eugenics War," that Khan was a part of. The intent was to breed "supermen" for battle. What if, in the aftermath of this war, the program was reversed? Picard has made the statement about how they've "evolved beyond the need for revenge:" perhaps there's more to this than empty rhetoric? If humanity has been bred to be more passive, it would explain so much about the Federation.

More likely it's just pure bullshit cultural indoctrination. The poor little feddies are told from birth that they are superior to other species. It's really no different from raising a relgious zealot or a neo-nazi. Tell them long enough and they believe it.

The federation is basically the result of the everday liberal PC bullshit taken to extreme and force fed to the population. The pacifism is a natural result of the stupid liberal notion that there is no good war; that even a justified, morally waged war is dirty.

Besides it would be nearly impossible to edit out specific behaviours by tinkered with the genetic code of humanity. Environment plays at least as big a part in human development.

[Master of Ossus]

Possible, but unlikely. We know from Doctor Bashir that genetic engineering in humans is illegal, and that there are some serious punishments for it. It is more likely that the Federation's typical pacifism is actually the result of cultural indoctrination. Also note that the Federation is more than willing to launch offensive actions into its enemies' territory, when it is called for. This would indicate that war is looked down upon, but not forbidden genetically. If they were genetically incapable of fighting wars, we would instead expect to see the Federation do more to avoid conflict, and when drawn into conflict they would sue for peace more quickly and also not attack through their enemy's territory.

[Evil Jerk]

It's most likely the result of propaganda, remember the TOS Federation had people who did know when to lay on the smackdown when necisarry.

What's funny is how stupid this is, the UFP is surrounded by hostile morons who want to grind them into dust, yet they purposefully declaw their citizenry and military by preaching that pacifism is everything and how they should look down on other cultures for doing things more "primitivley" (read: differentley).

It was really bad in some episodes of TNG like the one with the wargame, where Picard and Riker smugly patronize the Zakdorn saying military duty is a tiny part of a Captain's job.
They should get a clue, that's their most important job! If they don't want to fight they should go command dedicated explorer vessels.

[Patrick Degan]

Remember this quote:

Believe me, the sort of sterile, antiseptic galaxy these androids would run would be purgatory for a man like me.

—Harcourt Fenton Mudd; "I Mudd"

From everything we see, it would seem that the androids of planet Mudd actually managed to somehow gain control of the Alpha Quadrant, or at least the United Federation of Planets and that everything we've seen from TOS onward has been propaganda. Naturally, the androids don't rule overtly; exercising control behind the scenes and blunting humanity's aggressive and acquisitive tendencies, as Alice 347 phrased it.

See the results: a human race which apparently has no basic survival skills or instincts (medics who don't know how to tie splints, Picard who can't even make fire, people who can't even recognise when they're in a state of war with an enemy power determined to crush their nation out of existence), a race drowning in every convenience and luxury to the point where its rare to find people who actually cook their own food with fire and touch real meat and where none of them seek wealth or acquire the skills for doing so. A culture where every aspect of scientific research must pass through a centralised authority. People who are apparently under therapy almost from the moment of birth and who are subject to screening for criminal tendencies and "treated".

There are some who manage to resist the inculcation; after all, no society is entirely free of malcontents. But its fairly clear that the UFP is populated by a fairly sheep-like people, pacified by their modern conveniences to the point where they don't even consider questions of commerce and labour and indoctrinated to the point where they're quite willing to let families settle aboard ships of the line and make no real fuss when one colony world collapses into complete anarchy and no effort to restore civil order by the central Federation government is even discussed.

I think the androids took over.

[TheDarkling]

The Feds are much more powerfull than most other powers - the setup is like this.

AQ- Feds are controling faction.
BQ- No one in control but alliance between Klingons and Romulans would put them in the same leagure of quadrant rulers.
GQ- Dominion rules.
DQ- Borg rules.

Now since the Klingons have been buddy buddy with the feds they have had no one on their level (especially when you consider the klingons siding with them aswell).

We have seen what happens when they take on another quadrante ruler - its to much for them, Dominion would have defeated the Feds wih Klingon/Romulan assistance and if the Borg ever come in force it will be the same story.

My point is the Feds are complacent (or were) however after Wolf 359 they began instituting some military into SF and then with the threat of the Dominion this continued until all out war and endgame seems to imply the build up hasnt relaxed to pre Borg levels.

When a culture arrives at the apex (no contenders) war isnt needed except for imperealism and since the Feds have the prime directive to prevent that sort of thing pacifist feeling increase - this is what we have seen in the Feds.

You will notice that with the Dominion actually attacking earth and disrupting the sense of security Admiral Leyton and several others are willing to move to an offensive military posture.

Just what I have observed anyway.

[Evil Jerk]

They are clearly not the most powerful though, the Cardies fought them in an equal war, the Romulans headlocked them into an assymetrical peace agreement, the Klingons kicked their ass in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and did a lot of damage in the DS9 war too, despite being complete morons who use melee weapons against people with phasers.

They may THINK they're the most powerful though, in some sort of mass-delusion where they thought moral superiority and peaceful exploration made them invincible. After all, these are the same people who take families into warzones..

[Master of Ossus]

The Cardassians are not powerful enough to defeat the Federation by themselves. Only with the Dominion were they a serious threat to the Federation. The point is still correct, though, Evil Jerk. The Federation is the most powerful group in the AQ, but other powers are nearly as strong. As a group, they could easily overwhelm the Federation.

[TheDarkling]

The Klingons in Yesterdays Enterprise arent ours since the timeline was corrected so that cant exactly be used (notice how the pacifism was gone however).

The klingons didnt do much damage and it was little more than a border clash (it only involved one sector).

The Romulans didnt headlock them into anything if the Feds didnt have a cloak at that point it doesnt seem like they want one (they must have been getting along with the Klingons and had been allies (or so it seems) with the Romulans before that and had had a working prototype for 60 or so years (the one kirk stole)).
You also discount that the Feds dont like war and never have giving up cloaking tech (whihc they showed little interest in) probably seemed ok especially to buy peace.

Lets face it if the Feds can act like they do and still measure up to the Romulans its obvious the Feds are more powerfull (also remember that the Dominion always saw the Federation as the main threat, when Odo says the Federation could hold the Romulans and Klingons to the peace treaty the female Founder didnt question if they could) the federation is obviously more powerfull that the Romulans or any of the other locals.

To imply the Cardies could take on the Feds is laughable, a top of the line Fed ship can take on two cardy Galors with ease, the Cardies wouild have been owned.

[Evil Jerk]

The Klingons in Yesterdays Enterprise arent ours since the timeline was corrected so that cant exactly be used (notice how the pacifism was gone however).

Is was exactly as the primary until the Enterprise-C incident, it can't really be that different.
The militarism was most likely a last ditch effort to get their act together far too late.

The klingons didnt do much damage and it was little more than a border clash (it only involved one sector).

But they still overwhelmed Fed ground armies and were doing enough damage to make Sisko and the others find other ways to stop the war.

The Romulans didnt headlock them into anything if the Feds didnt have a cloak at that point it doesnt seem like they want one (they must have been getting along with the Klingons and had been allies (or so it seems) with the Romulans before that and had had a working prototype for 60 or so years (the one kirk stole)).
You also discount that the Feds dont like war and never have giving up cloaking tech (whihc they showed little interest in) probably seemed ok especially to buy peace.

Even for an ultra pacifist regime it would be stupid to just forever cut off a line of tech under penalty of war.
Plus, the attitude of people like Pressman suggest that it was something imposed on them.

Lets face it if the Feds can act like they do and still measure up to the Romulans its obvious the Feds are more powerfull

But who's to say they do measure up?
The Federation seems to have more resources, but in an all out war they'd lose.

(also remember that the Dominion always saw the Federation as the main threat, when Odo says the Federation could hold the Romulans and Klingons to the peace treaty the female Founder didnt question if they could) the federation is obviously more powerfull that the Romulans or any of the other locals.

What does diplomacy have to do with it?
In fact, they weren't viewed as a threat, the Founder agent who made Tain attack ther homeworld said that the Feddies and the Klingons were nothing now that the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar were out of the way.

To imply the Cardies could take on the Feds is laughable, a top of the line Fed ship can take on two cardy Galors with ease, the Cardies wouild have been owned.

Explain the Demilitirized Zone and the whole Maquis debacle then.
No you can't put that down to just pacifism because that would lead to new levels of stupidity, either they're total idiots or they thought that war with the Cardies would cost them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

But who's to say they do measure up?
The Federation seems to have more resources, but in an all out war they'd lose.

The UFP tech is also better. Watch VGR "Message in a Bottle" you have three Romulan Warbirds(battleships) vs. 1 Heavy Cruiser, 2 Heavy Escorts, and 1 Experimental ship, which fired on SF ships once or twice. Those forces made those three battleships retreat.

What does diplomacy have to do with it?
In fact, they weren't viewed as a threat, the Founder agent who made Tain attack ther homeworld said that the Feddies and the Klingons were nothing now that the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar were out of the way.

Just so you know the Founders didn't make Tain do it, he was already going to do it. They just made sure that it went through, to what extent is unknown.

Explain the Demilitirized Zone and the whole Maquis debacle then.
No you can't put that down to just pacifism because that would lead to new levels of stupidity, either they're total idiots or they thought that war with the Cardies would cost them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Explain the Demilitirized Zone and the whole Maquis debacle then.
No you can't put that down to just pacifism because that would lead to new levels of stupidity, either they're total idiots or they thought that war with the Cardies would cost them.

Argh accidently hit send

Maybe it would cost them? Just not in the manner you are thinking.

The UFP gave up the right to develop cloaking tech for peace with the Romulans, which is an obvious military advantage. Why is it so hard to imagine they would give up a couple planets, that seemed to have no strategic or mineral value?

The UFP is roughly comparable to the Klingons in military strength and tech, I'd say maybe just a little bit better. The Klingons tore through Cardassian fleets, and systems. If the Dominion hadn't arrived than it would have been all over.

[TheDarkling]

Explain to me why the Feds didnt create cloaks? they werent concerned with it obviously, Pressman just thought it could be of use not the Feds as a whole.

Romulans > Feds according to DS9.

In fact, they weren't viewed as a threat, the Founder agent who made Tain attack ther homeworld said that the Feddies and the Klingons were nothing now that the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar were out of the way.

I would call that a radical interpretation of the text.

He says that the Romulans and Cardies are out of the game just to deal with the Klingons and Feds and they wont be a threat much longer - he doesnt they arent a threat, this is meant that without the hardline Intel agencies the AQ/BQ powers could be infiltrated and controled.

It had no reference to military might whatsoever so bringing this up was irrelevant and you were also incoreect in what was said.

The DMZ was once agina the Feds avoiding war with their normal Peace rocks ideology.

Explain why the Marquis were able to take on the Cardies? even though the Cardy colonists were getting supplies straight from central command yet the Marquis were going it alone.

On the Klingon issue - the Feds once agian didnt want a full war (especially with the Dominion out there) so they sort out another method to save lives in the long run.

As for the altered timeline - we cant know exaclty what went on so basing anything off it isnt really solid ground.

[TheDarkling]

Opps I meant Feds > Romulan according to DS9.

The Feds were always the main problem (and the Founder feared a Federation counter attack and when Odo said it wouldnt happen then she said about the Klings/Rom and Odo said the Federation could stop them)

[Akira]

The Feds are much more powerfull than most other powers - the setup is like this.

AQ- Feds are controling faction.
BQ- No one in control but alliance between Klingons and Romulans would put them in the same leagure of quadrant rulers.
GQ- Dominion rules.
DQ- Borg rules.

Now since the Klingons have been buddy buddy with the feds they have had no one on their level (especially when you consider the klingons siding with them aswell).

We have seen what happens when they take on another quadrante ruler - its to much for them, Dominion would have defeated the Feds wih Klingon/Romulan assistance and if the Borg ever come in force it will be the same story.

My point is the Feds are complacent (or were) however after Wolf 359 they began instituting some military into SF and then with the threat of the Dominion this continued until all out war and endgame seems to imply the build up hasnt relaxed to pre Borg levels.

When a culture arrives at the apex (no contenders) war isnt needed except for imperealism and since the Feds have the prime directive to prevent that sort of thing pacifist feeling increase - this is what we have seen in the Feds.

You will notice that with the Dominion actually attacking earth and disrupting the sense of security Admiral Leyton and several others are willing to move to an offensive military posture.

Just what I have observed anyway.

The Dominion did not attack earth at any point. Sure there were 4 founders there, but they did not send in the Jem'hadar. (They tried, but they did not get into Sector 001)

The ONLY non borg race to attack earth and make it into the system is the Breen. BEFORE they joined the dominion. So the Dominion did not attack earth. And the breen fleet was wiped out before they could do much else other then bomb SF Command.

[TheDarkling]

I was talking about the Founders set off a bomb and killing some Romulans at a trade conference not an actual military invasion.

[Akira]

Explain to me why the Feds didnt create cloaks? they werent concerned with it obviously, Pressman just thought it could be of use not the Feds as a whole.

B/c that was part of the Earth - Romulan Treaty at the end of the Romulan war.

Pressman was braking the treaty when he made that phase cloak.

All though the treaty says they can't USE them. I don't think it has anything about the feds MAKING them.

[Akira]

I was talking about the Founders set off a bomb and killing some Romulans at a trade conference not an actual military invasion.

Are you sure it was the founders who set of the bomb.

I would have to watch the ep again, but I think the founder was just there spying on the conference. I think it was Layton's group who set of the bomb.

But as I said, I need to watch the ep again.

[TheDarkling]

The fake O'Brien said "there are only 4 of us and look what we have managed to do" so I thought that meant that the bomb sent Layton over the edge but its possible the bomb was planeted by Leyton however how did the Founder know when it was about to go off.

On the cloak issue I meant why didnt the Feds create a cloak befor ethe treaty of Algeron because they had about 60 years with which to work with a prototype.

[Akira]

The fake O'Brien said "there are only 4 of us and look what we have managed to do" so I thought that meant that the bomb sent Layton over the edge but its possible the bomb was planeted by Leyton however how did the Founder know when it was about to go off.

On the cloak issue I meant why didnt the Feds create a cloak befor ethe treaty of Algeron because they had about 60 years with which to work with a prototype.

Well the 1st treaty of Algeron was made over subspace between Earth and the Rommies, before the UFP was founded. I am not sure when the 2nd treaty of Algeron was (the one that banned UFP cloak), but I think it was around early TOS, soon after the rommies turned up again. (I have only seen 3 eps of TOS and the rommie eps are not one of them)

As far as I know, the UFP before kirk recovered that prototype cloak from the rommies did not think cloaking could even be done. I don't know why they did not do any cloak tech work between recovering the cloak and the 2nd treaty. Maybe they did and they just have not siad so.

[Evil Jerk]

It had no reference to military might whatsoever so bringing this up was irrelevant and you were also incoreect in what was said.

He said quite specifically that the Feds and Klingons would be comparativley easy to deal with once the bulk of the Cardie/Rommie secret forces were taken out.
If he isn't speaking militarily, what then?

The DMZ was once agina the Feds avoiding war with their normal Peace rocks ideology.

Explain why the Marquis were able to take on the Cardies? even though the Cardy colonists were getting supplies straight from central command yet the Marquis were going it alone.

Guerilla tactics.
As for the CC supplying their colonists, we don't know how long that went on for, since it seems the Maquis spent almost all their time fighting the government and not opposing colonists.

On the Klingon issue - the Feds once agian didnt want a full war (especially with the Dominion out there) so they sort out another method to save lives in the long run.

If they were really more powerful, a peace could've been negociated another way, no?

The Feds were always the main problem (and the Founder feared a Federation counter attack and when Odo said it wouldnt happen then she said about the Klings/Rom and Odo said the Federation could stop them)

Because the Federation was simply the main opposing player at that time with the Rommies and the Klingons weakened due to their own stupidity, but that doesn't mean it was always so.

On the cloak issue I meant why didnt the Feds create a cloak befor ethe treaty of Algeron because they had about 60 years with which to work with a prototype.

Who's to say they didn't?

[TheDarkling]

Akira: The cloak was banned in 2311 , the Feds stole a cloak in 2268 - they had 40 years to come up with a cloak and they didnt it seems to me they werent interetsed.

Evil Jerk:

I stated exactly what the Founders were talking about - infiltration wise, they thought they could control the Roms/Cardies with their Intel guys hurt.

Let me ask you something - why would the loss of cardy/Roms affect the Kling/Feds militarily in ANY WAY - I just dont understand where you are coming from.

He also doesnt say they are no longer a threat as I have already said however heres the quote so you will believe me.

LOVOK
Not exactly. Tain originated the
plan. But when we learned of it, we
did everything we could to carry it
forward. The Tal Shiar and the
Obsidian Order are both ruthless,
efficient organizations -- a definite
threat to us.

ODO
But not after today.

LOVOK
After today the only real threats to
us from the Alpha Quadrant are the
Klingons and the Federation. And I
doubt either of them will be a threat
for much longer.

You say it was the Marquis fighting the CC directly, first off I disagree, Cardy ships werent allowed into the DMZ however if they were it hurts you evenmore since a bunch of misfits could challenge the Cardy military.

A peace negoiated how??? once it was proved the Dominion wanted the Feds/klingons at war the war was stopped - it was the correct choice.
Again where are you going?

The Roms entered the war later than the Feds and the Feds seemed to be doing more fighting yet you think the Feds came out stronger than the Roms - guess how, they went in stronger as I have said.

Once again proof that the Feds were the main part of the FEDERATION Alliance.

FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
We will establish a new defense
perimeter along this line. With
less territory to defend, we can
concentrate our forces and hold
off any attack --
if the enemy
attacks at all.

WEYOUN
(catching on)
The Federation is by its very
nature timid. When they see we've
pulled back, their first impulse
will be to leave us alone.

BROCA
What about the Klingons and the
Romulans?

Everyone turns and looks at him -- the most junior
man in the room should keep his mouth shut at this
point. He tries to backtrack.

BROCA
I meant no disrespect... I was
simply asking --

WEYOUN
Without the Federation, the
others are no threat to us.

Who says they didnt create a cloak - no one but I never saw one on the Ent B ( left space dock in 2293 ) or any other Fed ships ever - it seems to me the Feds never developed one beacuse they didnt care to have one.

[Evil Jerk]

I stated exactly what the Founders were talking about - infiltration wise, they thought they could control the Roms/Cardies with their Intel guys hurt.

Let me ask you something - why would the loss of cardy/Roms affect the Kling/Feds militarily in ANY WAY - I just dont understand where you are coming from.

It wouldn't affect them.
If we consider the Feds, Klingons, Roms and Cardies to be the "big 4" of the AQ then maybe at that time the Cardies and the Rommies were the 2 most powerful, and taking them out left the two weaker members of the big 4.

He also doesnt say they are no longer a threat as I have already said however heres the quote so you will believe me.

LOVOK
Not exactly. Tain originated the
plan. But when we learned of it, we
did everything we could to carry it
forward. The Tal Shiar and the
Obsidian Order are both ruthless,
efficient organizations -- a definite
threat to us.

ODO
But not after today.

LOVOK
After today the only real threats to
us from the Alpha Quadrant are the
Klingons and the Federation. And I
doubt either of them will be a threat
for much longer.

Of course they still represent a threat, but his words imply that they weren't as much of a threat as the other two.

You say it was the Marquis fighting the CC directly, first off I disagree, Cardy ships werent allowed into the DMZ

But Maquis ships would go out and cause trouble then retreat back in, and certain ships did try and follow them in.
My point is that we rarely hear or see about colonist vs. colonist fighting after the Maquis problem starts to get ugly.

however if they were it hurts you evenmore since a bunch of misfits could challenge the Cardy military.

Not really, guerilla tactics can humiliate even the most advanced and powerful governments *points at Vietnam*

A peace negoiated how??? once it was proved the Dominion wanted the Feds/klingons at war the war was stopped - it was the correct choice.
Again where are you going?

It was a VERY risky thing they did to get peace the way they did, it could've gone very badly to them but didn't due to Changling stupidity and the almighty Mega-Character Shield.
My point is, were the Feddies so damn powerful they could've forced the Klingons to the negociating table, even those meatheads know when to back off.

The Roms entered the war later than the Feds and the Feds seemed to be doing more fighting yet you think the Feds came out stronger than the Roms - guess how, they went in stronger as I have said.

The Roms still lost their Tal'Shiar fleet prior to that.

Once again proof that the Feds were the main part of the FEDERATION Alliance.

FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
We will establish a new defense
perimeter along this line. With
less territory to defend, we can
concentrate our forces and hold
off any attack --
if the enemy
attacks at all.

WEYOUN
(catching on)
The Federation is by its very
nature timid. When they see we've
pulled back, their first impulse
will be to leave us alone.

BROCA
What about the Klingons and the
Romulans?

Everyone turns and looks at him -- the most junior
man in the room should keep his mouth shut at this
point. He tries to backtrack.

BROCA
I meant no disrespect... I was
simply asking --

WEYOUN
Without the Federation, the
others are no threat to us.

Jeez, sounds more like badly written good guy bolstering..
ANYWAY, yes, they may have been more powerful at that time like I say, just not for the majority of time prior to the other power's major losses.

Who says they didnt create a cloak - no one but I never saw one on the Ent B ( left space dock in 2293 ) or any other Fed ships ever - it seems to me the Feds never developed one beacuse they didnt care to have one.

Well, why would the E-B use it in the movie?
If they didn't want one, they're idiots, even explorer ships could find them immensley useful.

[TheDarkling]

Maybe they were the most powerfull??? I have presented evidence against that conclusion so that maybe isnt looking near likely.

Where do his words imlpy that? show me I dont get that from him.

The cardies have been shown to not be the equals of the Feds if you have an example of then being equal then im willing to look at it.

Their best ship are nowhere near as powerfull a sthe Feds and they seem to be alot smaller aswell, in the episode where the Defiant gets hijacked it cuts through Cardy ships like they arent there.

Why was it risky? they risked 4 peoples instead of a big long war, the Feds couldnt have forced the Klingons to the table without starting a proper war which is what the Feds wished to aviod (and did).

lol The Romulans lost about 5 ships out of a fleet of thousands how ever did they recover??, remember the Romulans were willing to sacrifice a ship just to beat the Feds to tin man.
It was no great loss at all (the Cardies were able to build more ships in secret and they are smaller than the Romulans).

I have shown many examples of the Feds oput classing the Romulans have you got any evidence against that conclusion?

[Evil Jerk]

Where do his words imlpy that? show me I dont get that from him.

LOVOK
After today the only real threats to
us from the Alpha Quadrant are the
Klingons and the Federation. And I
doubt either of them will be a threat
for much longer.

Only real threats: Dismissive
Won't be a threat for much longer: Not considered to be much of a hassle in a war

The cardies have been shown to not be the equals of the Feds if you have an example of then being equal then im willing to look at it.

The fact that they fought an equal war against the Feddies, landed on their planets and butchered their civilians and still got away with extremely favourable peace agreements.
Even the most stupid pacifist won't agree to that if they're so damn powerful.

Their best ship are nowhere near as powerfull a sthe Feds and they seem to be alot smaller aswell, in the episode where the Defiant gets hijacked it cuts through Cardy ships like they arent there.

The Defiant is, again, a new ship, a recent development and not representative of the power of the Federation as a whole for all this time (and it would've been destroyed by the Obsidian Order ships)

Why was it risky? they risked 4 peoples instead of a big long war, the Feds couldnt have forced the Klingons to the table without starting a proper war which is what the Feds wished to aviod (and did).

If they had remained caught with the Changling unexposed it would've provoked a full scale war, unless you think Gowron would not have been bothered with Starfleet assassins sent to his backyard to kill him.

lol The Romulans lost about 5 ships out of a fleet of thousands how ever did they recover??,

Thousands? Don't give me overblown Trek ship figures again.

remember the Romulans were willing to sacrifice a ship just to beat the Feds to tin man.

Duh, if they had gotten Tin Man they wouldn't need their ships.

It was no great loss at all (the Cardies were able to build more ships in secret and they are smaller than the Romulans).

Weren't the Rommie ships built in secret too? I don't see your point.

I have shown many examples of the Feds oput classing the Romulans have you got any evidence against that conclusion?

Treaty of Algeron.
And if the Rommies were really so much less than the Feds, why were they so desparate for Romulan help in the war?