Assault Weapon Discussion Split from Middle class thread

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Edi, even the Patriot Act has sections added to it which consist solely of resolutions praising the rescue workers on 9/11 and even single individuals who did particular things or provided rescue equipment or whatever for the search effort; I believe those resolutions are several pages of the Act, actually. They don't actually do anything. They just say that "The Congress hearby agrees to praise..."

It's the downside to the Federal System.

[Shinova]

I hate to do this to you but.....

*attaches Illuminatus to a Chevy Caprice '79 and peels off, leaving a trail
of blood behind*

The 1934 NFA made it very hard to get FA weapons. You had to pay a $200
tax per weapon to register them, etc, but you could still buy M-60 GPMGs

Hower, in 1986, Frank Lautenberg, a Democrat from New Jersey, where MGs
are banned, slipped a rider into a gun rights bill that overturned most
of the stupid shit from 1968 GCA, made it illegal for civilians to buy
machine guns made after 1986, so now, most of the machine guns
on the market are hideously expensive...

Thanks a lot, New Jersey, for electing that shithead

Wait, so if you've got the money you can still buy full-auto guns???

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Wait, so if you've got the money you can still buy full-auto guns???

Only ones made before 1986, and only if you pay out a lot of money.

[Sir Sirius]

* semi-automatics are allowed, but maximum allowed clip capacity can be limited to e.g. 15 rounds, should be quite adequate for hunting and recreational purposes

Why? What would be gained by doing this? I don't quite understand how a 30 round clip is so much more dangerous then a 15 round clip that they augh to be banned.

* all guns evaluated by performance and actual mechanical properties, evaluation to be done independently by experts, preferably several times by different instances

Are you suggesting that this be done for each gun individualy or that a particular type of firearm should be vetted in this manner before licenses for aquiring them are granted? If the former actualy getting purchase licenses would cost a furtune and take forever, if the later it would take a long time before a new type of a firearm becomes available and it would cost a furtune. In either case this would create a HUGE amount totaly redundant bureocracy and cost either the state or gunowners a fortune.

[Edi]

* semi-automatics are allowed, but maximum allowed clip capacity can be limited to e.g. 15 rounds, should be quite adequate for hunting and recreational purposes

Why? What would be gained by doing this? I don't quite understand how a 30 round clip is so much more dangerous then a 15 round clip that they augh to be banned.

I wasn't saying they should necessarily be banned, but don't we have restrictions like that for pump action shotguns for example? Of course, the limits as such are a relatively stupid idea in and of themselves, but it'd probably be easier to get it past the scaremongers. Remember, I pulled this list out of my hat in about 5 minutes and didn't pay much attention to details.

* all guns evaluated by performance and actual mechanical properties, evaluation to be done independently by experts, preferably several times by different instances

Are you suggesting that this be done for each gun individualy or that a particular type of firearm should be vetted in this manner before licenses for aquiring them are granted? If the former actualy getting purchase licenses would cost a furtune and take forever, if the later it would take a long time before a new type of a firearm becomes available and it would cost a furtune. In either case this would create a HUGE amount totaly redundant bureocracy and cost either the state or gunowners a fortune.[/quote]
Gun types. This idea was based on something that was said earlier, I don't remember by whom, but what I mean is that it'd eliminate all this "Ooh, it looks like a military weapon, therefore we must ban it!" bullshit. The distinction between categories like fully and semiautomatic rifles, bolt action rifles, revolvers, semi-auto pistols, shotguns and so forth are pretty straightforward and obvious (and these are pretty much to an extent decreed by mechanics or the other way around, the mechanics of how it works decree what kind of a weapon it is), so the classification shouldn't be much of a problem. I'm not talking about anal retention to the nth degree. Sorry if you got that idea about it.

Edi

[Edi]

Graah, somebody fix the quote, please!

Edi

[Sir Sirius]

I wasn't saying they should necessarily be banned, but don't we have restrictions like that for pump action shotguns for example?

There are limitations for clip and magazine capacities that can be used for hunting, but those only apply while hunting. There are no limitations for clip or magazine capacities in general that I know of.

Gun types. This idea was based on something that was said earlier, I don't remember by whom, but what I mean is that it'd eliminate all this "Ooh, it looks like a military weapon, therefore we must ban it!" bullshit. The distinction between categories like fully and semiautomatic rifles, bolt action rifles, revolvers, semi-auto pistols, shotguns and so forth are pretty straightforward and obvious (and these are pretty much to an extent decreed by mechanics or the other way around, the mechanics of how it works decree what kind of a weapon it is), so the classification shouldn't be much of a problem. I'm not talking about anal retention to the nth degree. Sorry if you got that idea about it.

Ah, I see. You are talking about clear definitions for different types of weapons based on their actual charecteristics (type of ammunition used, length, barrel lenght, type of action Etc.), rather then some arbitrary definition of a "dangerous" or "military" weapon. Finland already has such legislation.

[Edi]

I wasn't saying they should necessarily be banned, but don't we have restrictions like that for pump action shotguns for example?

There are limitations for clip and magazine capacities that can be used for hunting, but those only apply while hunting. There are no limitations for clip or magazine capacities in general that I know of.

I know just about zilch about those regulations here, just that some of them exist, so you safely chalk that up to my ignorance.

Gun types. This idea was based on something that was said earlier, I don't remember by whom, but what I mean is that it'd eliminate all this "Ooh, it looks like a military weapon, therefore we must ban it!" bullshit. The distinction between categories like fully and semiautomatic rifles, bolt action rifles, revolvers, semi-auto pistols, shotguns and so forth are pretty straightforward and obvious (and these are pretty much to an extent decreed by mechanics or the other way around, the mechanics of how it works decree what kind of a weapon it is), so the classification shouldn't be much of a problem. I'm not talking about anal retention to the nth degree. Sorry if you got that idea about it.

Ah, I see. You are talking about clear definitions for different types of weapons based on their actual charecteristics (type of ammunition used, length, barrel lenght, type of action Etc.), rather then some arbitrary definition of a "dangerous" or "military" weapon. Finland already has such legislation.

Yeah, I know we do, but my post was aimed at the Americans, because they don't have the benefit of any conclusive, clearly worded statutes on it, instead they've got a horrible mess that ought to be burned away and fixed from the ground up.

Edi

[MKSheppard]

* registry similar to driver's license registry, with photoed entries, at the federal level

Already done in Illnois, see the Illnois FOID card. A nightmare for any
gun owner as it has to keep getting renewed wevery few years.

* background checks for gun buyers

Already have that on federal level.

* automatic fire weapons banned, harsh penalties for possession

You have to go through lots of hoops to get your Class III permits.
And heaven forbid the guy who has an illegally owned Class III
weapon.

* semi-automatics are allowed, but maximum allowed clip capacity can be limited to e.g. 15 rounds, should be quite adequate for hunting and recreational purposes

Already have that. 10 round maximum limit on NEW magazines that
can be sold to civilians. But in the case of the AR-15 and AK-47, there
are so many pre-ban 30+ round magazines floating around that it's
useless that law..

[Illuminatus Primus]

* registry similar to driver's license registry, with photoed entries, at the federal level

Already done in Illnois, see the Illnois FOID card. A nightmare for any
gun owner as it has to keep getting renewed wevery few years.

Somehow I don't see the great tears of this. Doesn't seem like an injustice to me.

[MKSheppard]

Somehow I don't see the great tears of this. Doesn't seem like an injustice to me.

You forget that this is Illnois, and it's a highly corrupt government. Meaning
that shit gets delayed, returned to you, etc etc etc, and here's the kicker,
if you live in Illnois, and your FOID expires with no renewal due to no fault
of yours, but due to bureaucratic fuck ups, expect to have a visit paid to your
house by the CAGE unit.

[RedImperator]

• * registry similar to driver's license registry, with photoed entries, at the federal level

I don't like this one at all. What purpose is there, besides creating a new Federal bureaucracy? I don't like gun liscensing, period, but if there is going to be liscensing, it belongs at the state level.

* background checks for gun buyers

Already exist. Information technology allows this to be done in minutes.

* automatic fire weapons banned, harsh penalties for possession

Other than the issue of collectors, this isn't too objectionable. You're never going to get automatic weapons re-legalized anyway, so there's no point worrying about it.

* semi-automatics are allowed, but maximum allowed clip capacity can be limited to e.g. 15 rounds, should be quite adequate for hunting and recreational purposes

As you say, a bone to throw at the people who're afraid of guns. I don't think it's necessary, but that's how politics works sometimes.

* all guns evaluated by performance and actual mechanical properties, evaluation to be done independently by experts, preferably several times by different instances

Oh Jesus Christ yes.

* leave hand gun legislation and CCW permits up to the states
[/list]

Absolutely.

Pretty reasonable, for the most part. I'm a libertarian, so I'm not thrilled with all of it, but something could be worked from it, I'm sure.

<sigh> I need to be in Congress. Then I could work on this shit for real, instead of on a message board.

[MKSheppard]

Other than the issue of collectors, this isn't too objectionable. You're never going to get automatic weapons re-legalized anyway, so there's no point worrying about it.

*attaches Red Imperator to '79 Chevy and peels off leaving a trail of blood
and inhuman screams fill the air*

They're already legal, you dumbshit. You just can't own anything made
after 1986

[Glocksman]

I believe he's referring to the possibility of repealing that asshole Lautenberg's 1986 amendment.

[Coyote]

When it comes to ID cards the issue gets touchy-- many believe it violates the right to privacy or that gun owners may actually be discriminated against.

Were I in charge of the system, and a ID card was made mandatory, I think th t raining-- either military, police, or civil safety course-- and after that they are simply cleared to own firearms if they so choose. Getting the clearance does not mean they have one, just that they are authorized.

A nation-wide instant background check is done at the point of purchase, much as it is done today, but linked nationally and also raises a red flag if the buyer has been under treatment for harmful mental disorders. Felons or mental patiencts ould not be able to buy guns but the seller would not know why-- it would just come up as a red fag and the sale denied. The buyer would not be identified as a "loony" or whatever.

[Howedar]

A red fag?

HOMOPHOBE!!

[Coyote]

A red fag?

HOMOPHOBE!!

WHOOPS!

Naturally, I meant a bundle of firewood or a British cigarette.....

[Knife]

When it comes to ID cards the issue gets touchy-- many believe it violates the right to privacy or that gun owners may actually be discriminated against.

Were I in charge of the system, and a ID card was made mandatory, I think th t raining-- either military, police, or civil safety course-- and after that they are simply cleared to own firearms if they so choose. Getting the clearance does not mean they have one, just that they are authorized.

A nation-wide instant background check is done at the point of purchase, much as it is done today, but linked nationally and also raises a red flag if the buyer has been under treatment for harmful mental disorders. Felons or mental patiencts ould not be able to buy guns but the seller would not know why-- it would just come up as a red fag and the sale denied. The buyer would not be identified as a "loony" or whatever.

Nah, reverse it. Have a data base of people who CAN'T have a gun rather than a data base of people with them.

[Coyote]

Nah, reverse it. Have a data base of people who CAN'T have a gun rather than a data base of people with them.

Indeed, a far superior idea. People with rights and respect in the eyes of the law are the norm, it is those who betray their responsibilities or are unfortunately ill-equipped to handle them properly that are the minority. And from a logical pov, it would save money to identify only those who are not capable.

[Edi]

When it comes to ID cards the issue gets touchy-- many believe it violates the right to privacy or that gun owners may actually be discriminated against.

Were I in charge of the system, and a ID card was made mandatory, I think th t raining-- either military, police, or civil safety course-- and after that they are simply cleared to own firearms if they so choose. Getting the clearance does not mean they have one, just that they are authorized.

As in it'd be like a national driver's license? This is something I've advocated for a long while, just didn't bring it up in this thread yet. My bad.

Everyone, bear in mind that I'm not more than cursorily (if at all) familiar with the finer points of American gun legislation, and I've no practical experience of a federal system (as we don't have one), and that the outline I painted was drawn out of a hat at five minutes' notice and was just that, generalities. I'm not trying to offend anyone here.

Edi

[RedImperator]

As in it'd be like a national driver's license? This is something I've advocated for a long while, just didn't bring it up in this thread yet. My bad.

Everyone, bear in mind that I'm not more than cursorily (if at all) familiar with the finer points of American gun legislation, and I've no practical experience of a federal system (as we don't have one), and that the outline I painted was drawn out of a hat at five minutes' notice and was just that, generalities. I'm not trying to offend anyone here.

Edi

Ah, don't worry about it. I liked some of your ideas. You know how cantankerous this forum is.