Jedi versus really skilled human

[Lord of the Farce]

It depends no the human. I'd give someone like Hiko fair odds at doing so. But others disagree. I think it depends on who's backing which character.

Let me ask you one thing.

WHAT IN THE NINE LAYERS OF HELL ARE YOU FUCKING TALKING ABOUT?

He's talking about a manga/anime character that was created without a care for physics and therefore according to him not subject to physics, yet he wants to use these non-physics events as a proof of the character's superiority over Jedi.

... Or some crap like that.

[Smiling Bandit]

For Wong's information, I did indeed note the Jedi's weakness. However, I also noted this did not seem to severely reduce their combat efficiacy, although they were less than impressive than they might otherwise have been, had they common sense. My interpretation is that their foresight is shot to hell ("The Dark Side clouds everything!"), and that their ability to use the force is only beginning to diminish.

Secondly, I should have been more clear. This is against Jedi, not Sith, and not any other force-user. Reason? The Jedi don't use the force to directly attack their opponents. In other words, no cheap Force Chokes. Sith, by nature, don't limit themselves and would be much harder to beat when fighting and use the Force to its full against "norms". And many of the abilities of the Jedi may not have been fully effective against an opponent fully capable of fighting.

For example, the Force Choke is brutal, but Vader's energy dissipation might not have been very effective against an enemy capable of continued firing. Vader, after all, took the gun away from han very fast. That implies, if not with a perfect evidence, that the gun was a threat on some level, and Vader didn't want to keep using the Dissipation power.

As for Obi-Wan, let us not forget he did better against Maul than Qui-Gon, who was Dooku's trainee. It may be presumptuous of me, but I doubt Dooku would have been lax in training his apprentice in the combat arts. Regardless, Maul would have won had Obi-Wan not used the force to move himself, but then, Obi-Wan was going toe to toe and may have had an advantage had Maul not surprised him by pushing him over the edge with a Force Push. So he was at least even with Maul, skill-wise, and that is no mean feat.

Obi-Wan was better than Jango. However, I'm not sure this means that Jango is weaker, on average than any Jedi. He, after all, had no realy contact with them - no one did, and he likely didn't realize their full capabilities. Plus, I suppose he'd have done much better if he didn't bloody rush Obi-Wan (You'd think they'd have noticed that the LIGHTSABER IS DANGEROUS, but NOOOOOOOO!).

Regardless, given the heavy use of blasters, Obi-Wan was arguably better equipped than Jango, aside from the jetpack. The toys and Gadgets are nice, when you have the ultimate shield/short range weapon, can opener that is the Lightsaber...

Well, which one would you take?

Properly equipped and informed, I think it would be possible for Jango to kill many Jedi. If he'd gotten some improved flamethrowers and just sprayed the area, Obi-Wan would have had to retreat or die.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The toys and Gadgets are nice, when you have the ultimate shield/short range weapon, can opener that is the Lightsaber...

Well, which one would you take?

I would take the missle-launcher and flamethrower, which, interestingly enough, Jango wasn't smart enough to imploy.

[FOG3]

Didn't Jango keep making unsuccessful grabs for his opponents lightsabers while the lightsabers were on the ground. I seem to remember him grabbing for Windu's in the Arena but the Reek hitting him prevented him being successful.

[FTeik]

Maul whipped the floor with Obi-Wan. That he was beaten was pure accident.

It had nothing to do with Obi-Wans lightsaber-skills in the first place.

Concerning Obi-Wan being "above the average Jedi": in AotC Anakin talks about Obi-Wan being "as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu". Of course he might be bragging at that point of time, but as Vader he also states in the novel to ANH, that "Obi-Wan is the last of the Jedi and the greatest". Even Tarkin seems to know about him, something he wouldn´t for an ordinary Jedi.

[Smiling Bandit]

I would take the missle-launcher and flamethrower, which, interestingly enough, Jango wasn't smart enough to imploy.

Didn't really get that myself, but it may have been that Jango hadn't had time to load it all up properly. He was sort of rushing the escape. Still, it raises some questions. I think Jango had the skills, but just didn't think.

Maul whipped the floor with Obi-Wan. That he was beaten was pure accident.

Hmm? When Obi-Wan saw Qui-Gon die, he got pissed off, jumped out, and went toe-to-toe with Maul. He wasn't hit once and he managed to break Maul's saber. Looked pretty even to me.Maul won because he was using all his abilities, and Obi-Wan wasn't (Obi, of course, wasn't even a full Jedi yet, much less an apprentice Sith, so perhaps this is understandable).

[FTeik]

Tell me, who was hanging above the pit at the end of that duel?

An increase in performance just because he got "pissed of" isn´t evidence for Obi-Wans skill, on the contrary it shows, that Obi-Wans control leaves something to be desired.

The seemingly superior performance could be caused by a shift from the known and anticipted moves to something of a blind hacking driven by instinct. How is the old saying? "The best swordman doesn´t fear the second-best, but the worst swordsman, because he doesn´t know, what the idiot will do."

And Maul using "more" of his abilities than Obi-Wan is wrong, too. What Maul does besides fencing with his lightsaber is giving Obi-Wan a push with the force. Obi-Wan had no problems doing the same when fighting droids.

[DarthJerrak]

Secondly, I should have been more clear. This is against Jedi, not Sith, and not any other force-user. Reason? The Jedi don't use the force to directly attack their opponents. In other words, no cheap Force Chokes.

Wrong. Luke used a force choke on the two Gamorreans in Jabba's...

For example, the Force Choke is brutal, but Vader's energy dissipation might not have been very effective against an enemy capable of continued firing. Vader, after all, took the gun away from han very fast.

Dramatic effect? Vader's arrogance was obvious; you could tell he was full of himself from the tone of his voice when "iniviting" them to stay. He had out-thunk them.

That implies, if not with a perfect evidence, that the gun was a threat on some level, and Vader didn't want to keep using the Dissipation power.

He didn't seem to show any signs of exertion at all to me. Matter of fact, the casual air with which he did it leads me to think he could do it indefinitely.

Regardless, Maul would have won had Obi-Wan not used the force to move himself, but then, Obi-Wan was going toe to toe and may have had an advantage had Maul not surprised him by pushing him over the edge with a Force Push. So he was at least even with Maul, skill-wise, and that is no mean feat.

You're failing to realize Obi-Wan was enraged at the time (observe his facial displays): the brief burst of Dark-Side fuelled rage, combined with the rest of his training, would be more than enough to throw Maul off-guard, especially considering he'd been duelling a Jedi Master just moments before.

[Slartibartfast]

That implies, if not with a perfect evidence, that the gun was a threat on some level, and Vader didn't want to keep using the Dissipation power.

He didn't seem to show any signs of exertion at all to me. Matter of fact, the casual air with which he did it leads me to think he could do it indefinitely.

It's only because Han made a mistake. He should have aimed for the crotch. Always aim for the crotch, specially when using killer dogs or Wookies.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Secondly, I should have been more clear. This is against Jedi, not Sith, and not any other force-user. Reason? The Jedi don't use the force to directly attack their opponents. In other words, no cheap Force Chokes.

Wrong. Luke used a force choke on the two Gamorreans in Jabba's...

Luke choked them so that they WOULDN'T fight him. Intimidation is different from actual fighting.

He didn't seem to show any signs of exertion at all to me. Matter of fact, the casual air with which he did it leads me to think he could do it indefinitely.

However, thinking something is correct does not automatically make it correct. Please provide some proof.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Secondly, I should have been more clear. This is against Jedi, not Sith, and not any other force-user. Reason? The Jedi don't use the force to directly attack their opponents. In other words, no cheap Force Chokes.

Wrong. Luke used a force choke on the two Gamorreans in Jabba's...

Luke choked them so that they WOULDN'T fight him. Intimidation is different from actual fighting.

This and his all-black attire was supposed to show his touch and struggle with the Dark Side, thus setting up for the conclusion of ROTJ.

A normal Jedi shouldn't have done that.

[Smiling Bandit]

Ultimately, we are all taking evidence off of a few breif moments of film, and we don't get the character's intimate knowledge or understanding. And we often have to take guesses about what a particular statement or event means. Ironically, it is far easier to draw conclusions about the galaxy at large than it is to determine the specifics of one single fight.

Tell me, who was hanging above the pit at the end of that duel?

Obi-Wan displayed no weakness in skill compared to Maul, and his moves were hardly blind hacking. He may have wanted vengeance, but the graphic evidence indicates he was Maul's equal in combat ability. Maul gained a momentary advantage, and Obi-Wan ultimately won, by the use of non-combat Force abilities - telekinesis.
No full Jedi has ever done this to a living being, for whatever reason.Even Obi-Wan didn't try and shove Maul over the pit; he pushed himself up. I don't know why. Perhaps Jedi don't consider droids as important as humans.

Wrong. Luke used a force choke on the two Gamorreans in Jabba's...

As another said, he was having a brush with the Dark Side.

Dramatic effect? Vader's arrogance was obvious; you could tell he was full of himself from the tone of his voice when "iniviting" them to stay. He had out-thunk them.

Sort of my point: He'd already won this battle. He already had them surrounded with troops. Its only a possibility, but at least one with evidence, that he wasn't having fun absorbing blaster bolts.

He didn't seem to show any signs of exertion at all to me. Matter of fact, the casual air with which he did it leads me to think he could do it indefinitely.

Err... how would you tell if he was exerting himself? The man is sealed into a big black suit of armor. The only sign we ever had of this was at the end of RotJ, when he was mangled, beaten, and had his hand chopped off.

[JodoForce]

Does the battle between Jango Fett and Obi-wan disprove the notion that Jedi can use superhuman speed to beat normal people? Coz if Obi-wan could move at the superhuman speeds argued for them for more than a split second, the battle would have been over in a flash with him flashing to his side and immobilizing him.

[Smiling Bandit]

I basically have to assume they cannot use that speed in combat. They've never used in a saber duel, nor against each other. We've seen it exactly once. Given the conditions in TPM, I am taking another WHAG (Wild, Half-Arsed Guess).

1) Level ground - It may be that even with the better reflexes, moving like that would result in a major faceplant and floorburn since they can't walk properly.

2) Not likely to use any deft movements - Maybe it takes a lot of effort to maintain the fast movement, or maybe they simply can't react fast enough to compensate for the speed.

That's my only guess. I suppose its worth noting that use of the Force speed (and especially the fast saber style) made it easy to beat any and all enemies in Star Wars: Jedi Knight II. Anything less than bosses or mechs/war droids, you could simply zip up to and slash away. Even the opposing sith acolytes were toasted.

[Lord of the Farce]

Obi-Wan displayed no weakness in skill compared to Maul, and his moves were hardly blind hacking. He may have wanted vengeance, but the graphic evidence indicates he was Maul's equal in combat ability. Maul gained a momentary advantage, and Obi-Wan ultimately won, by the use of non-combat Force abilities - telekinesis.

You kidding me? If Obi-Wan was an equal to Maul, then how do you figure Maul holding off both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon with little difficulty?

Even Obi-Wan didn't try and shove Maul over the pit

Why should Obi-Wan expect to be able to shove Maul into the pit? As Obi-Wan himself demonstrated earlier, pulling off a long distance jump is hardly impossible.


Hmmm... Curious... Why didn't Anakin or Obi-Wan hop up onto the top of the pillars in the arena? That kind of height should be trivial at worst considering what Obi-Wan did in TPM...

[ShinjiGohan]

It depends no the human. I'd give someone like Hiko fair odds at doing so. But others disagree. I think it depends on who's backing which character.

Let me ask you one thing.

WHAT IN THE NINE LAYERS OF HELL ARE YOU FUCKING TALKING ABOUT?

He's talking about a manga/anime character that was created without a care for physics and therefore according to him not subject to physics, yet he wants to use these non-physics events as a proof of the character's superiority over Jedi.

... Or some crap like that.

Not exactly correct. If you read my recent posts you'd see some decent calcuations done on the said character. And explained that the manga author wasn't an expert in physics, but tried his best to come up with explainations for why things work. Now just because his explainations break some rules of physics, doesn't mean that everything is thrown out the window. As for example, the kuzu ryu sen, where the sword is supposed to attack in 9 places at the same time, I explained it that it was two things, it was seemingly at the same time, and then I presented the timing that all 9 attacks had to be done, which would to a normal person would seem like it was at the same time (if you were hit in 9 places with 0.000026 seconds between each hit, you'd probably register it as it occuring at the same time too).

[Stuart Mackey]

Besides that i haven´t noticed huge differences in Jedi-performance between TPM and AotC.

Yoda seemed to think they were there. He wanted to keep their loss of Force use a secret, because he feared that their enemies would gang up and destroy them if it got out.

This is one thing I have belived to be a misinterpretation. I dont think that Jedi lost any power as such, as Palpy prevented them from seeing certain things, like his manipulation of the senate. After all, even Yoda does not know the facts, but might suspect them.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

This is one thing I have belived to be a misinterpretation. I dont think that Jedi lost any power as such, as Palpy prevented them from seeing certain things, like his manipulation of the senate. After all, even Yoda does not know the facts, but might suspect them.

And yet Mace Windu says specifically "I believe it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished." No where does he point out that their ablity to see through the Force had been hindered, but the whole darn kit and kaboodle.

Which explains some things like in TPM with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon being able to go nuts with speed and jumps and in general ass-whooping while the Jedi in AOTC seemed to a much, much harder time (the rumble in the rain, more notably).

[Stuart Mackey]

This is one thing I have belived to be a misinterpretation. I dont think that Jedi lost any power as such, as Palpy prevented them from seeing certain things, like his manipulation of the senate. After all, even Yoda does not know the facts, but might suspect them.

And yet Mace Windu says specifically "I believe it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished." No where does he point out that their ablity to see through the Force had been hindered, but the whole darn kit and kaboodle.

Which explains some things like in TPM with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon being able to go nuts with speed and jumps and in general ass-whooping while the Jedi in AOTC seemed to a much, much harder time (the rumble in the rain, more notably).

Look at the context, he was talking about their inability to detect the clone army.
As to general Jedi abilities, what did we see? Obi trying to capture, not kill Jango, and a bunch of half trained padawans getting overwhelmed by firepower, hardly a good indication of lack of overall abilties.

[Lord of the Farce]

Look at the context, he was talking about their inability to detect the clone army.
As to general Jedi abilities, what did we see? Obi trying to capture, not kill Jango, and a bunch of half trained padawans getting overwhelmed by firepower, hardly a good indication of lack of overall abilties.

Judging by TPM, when Obi-Wan is in a relatively fresh state, being able to jump around for fairly long distances should have been trivial. Yet, at both Kamino and Genosis, neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan (or any of the other Jedi, as far as I can recall) hop out of the way of danger (EDIT: besides Anakin's single jump).

[Stuart Mackey]

Look at the context, he was talking about their inability to detect the clone army.
As to general Jedi abilities, what did we see? Obi trying to capture, not kill Jango, and a bunch of half trained padawans getting overwhelmed by firepower, hardly a good indication of lack of overall abilties.

Judging by TPM, when Obi-Wan is in a relatively fresh state, being able to jump around for fairly long distances should have been trivial. Yet, at both Kamino and Genosis, neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan (or any of the other Jedi, as far as I can recall) hop out of the way of danger (EDIT: besides Anakin's single jump).

Anakin and Obi-Wan survived that fight so I hardly think that acrobatics were nessary for their survival.

[Lord of the Farce]

Anakin and Obi-Wan survived that fight so I hardly think that acrobatics were nessary for their survival.

And what of the hundred something Jedi who were killed or wounded? Hopping out of the arena and making an escape would have reduced casualties greatly and shouldn't have been that difficult (again, ref: TPM), yet they didn't. Combined with the possibility of their overall power having been reduced, it makes sense.

[Stuart Mackey]

Anakin and Obi-Wan survived that fight so I hardly think that acrobatics were nessary for their survival.

And what of the hundred something Jedi who were killed or wounded? Hopping out of the arena and making an escape would have reduced casualties greatly and shouldn't have been that difficult (again, ref: TPM), yet they didn't. Combined with the possibility of their overall power having been reduced, it makes sense.

That most of them were padawan learners makes more sense and explains the death toll.

[Lord of the Farce]

That most of them were padawan learners makes more sense and explains the death toll.

Obi-Wan was a Padawan too, and he was able to pull off a multi-story jump right after falling down there in the first place. Also, you theory doesn't account for Jedi powers in official literature.

[Sea Skimmer]

Obi-Wan was a Padawan too, and he was able to pull off a multi-story jump right after falling down there in the first place. Also, you theory doesn't account for Jedi powers in official literature.

Except that was ten years before and when the Jedi had their full powers available