Who could free an Encircled Army?

[MKSheppard]

A friendly army has been encircled in a city, and it MUST BREAK OUT
within a week or else all is lost. A friendly army is massing for a breakthrough attempt. Who would succeed and how/why?

1. 3 Panzer Divisions under Field Marshal Erich von Manstein with 500 tanks and 50,000 troops.

2. 50,000 feddie redshirts under KIRK

3. 50,000 Mobile Infantry from the Starship Troopers Movie

4. 50,000 Klingons

5. 50,000 Romulans

6. 50,000 Breen

7. 3 Stormtrooper Divisions

8. 3 Imperial Army Divisions

[The Yosemite Bear]

I vote for Ten Legions of Roman might backed by Sirpico Africanus

[AdmiralKanos]

A friendly army has been encircled in a city, and it MUST BREAK OUT within a week or else all is lost. A friendly army is massing for a breakthrough attempt. Who would succeed and how/why?

This scenario would be easier to understand if you could quantify the size of this friendly army and the size of the forces encircling it.

1. 3 Panzer Divisions under Field Marshal Erich von Manstein with 500 tanks and 50,000 troops.

Pretty tough bunch. For the remaining options, perhaps we should assume that the encircling forces are such that this force succeeds but only at great cost.

2. 50,000 feddie redshirts under KIRK

All dead before they even reach the outer limits of the city, with minimal losses on the part of the encircling force. Pajama-clad troops wielding hand phasers against tanks, artillery, and heavy machine guns is a horrendous mismatch. Even if you grant them the EMP "photon grenades" from "Arena", they'll quickly find out to their chagrin that modern machine-guns and mortars are completely unaffected by EMP.

3. 50,000 Mobile Infantry from the Starship Troopers Movie

Retards with no mortars, no artillery, no armoured ground vehicles, no sense of tactics, and no brains. All dead, although they take a lot more of the defenders down with them thanks to their high-powered bazookas.

4. 50,000 Klingons

All dead. With their shitty 19th century massed-charge tactics and their use of handguns and bladed melee weapons for armament, they'd be lucky to kill one member of the encircling force. Even if we grant them the pathetic mortars they used in "Nor the Battle to the Strong", (from which a hit less than 3 metres from Dr. Bashir stunned him but did not injure him), they'd STILL be lucky to score a single kill.

5. 50,000 Romulans

Unknown. We've never seen them engage in ground combat.

6. 50,000 Breen

Unknown.

7. 3 Stormtrooper Divisions

On foot? No artillery/armour/air support? Hard to say; they're a lot tougher to kill than regular troops because of their hard-plate armour which can resist small-arms fire, but impacts powerful enough to cause blunt-force trauma through the armour will still kill them. Nevertheless, their armour and extremely powerful hand weapons (assuming they're carrying various squad-support weapons, E-Webs, bazookas, shoulder-launched missiles, grenades, mortars, etc as listed in the books) give them the ability to deal out heavy damage to the encircling forces, including their tanks. Assuming they approach in an intelligent, dispersed manner rather than forming up into a gigantic mob and marching toward the city, the huge disparity between the ease of killing a fully armoured stormtrooper and the ease of killing a normal soldier would have to weigh in the stormtroopers' favour. An E-Web or T-21 can easily destroy a tank, and even a hand blaster may be powerful enough, certainly against light tanks and smaller vehicles. In room-to-room fighting, an enemy soldier could easily hit a stormtrooper with a long burst from his sub-machine gun at close range but not kill him, while the stormtrooper might blindly hit the wall next to the enemy soldier and still score a kill.

8. 3 Imperial Army Divisions

They roll over the enemy.

[Sea Skimmer]

A friendly army has been encircled in a city, and it MUST BREAK OUT within a week or else all is lost. A friendly army is massing for a breakthrough attempt. Who would succeed and how/why?

This scenario would be easier to understand if you could quantify the size of this friendly army and the size of the forces encircling it.

1. 3 Panzer Divisions under Field Marshal Erich von Manstein with 500 tanks and 50,000 troops.

Pretty tough bunch. For the remaining options, perhaps we should assume that the encircling forces are such that this force succeeds but only at great cost.

2. 50,000 feddie redshirts under KIRK

All dead before they even reach the outer limits of the city, with minimal losses on the part of the encircling force. Pajama-clad troops wielding hand phasers against tanks, artillery, and heavy machine guns is a horrendous mismatch. Even if you grant them the EMP "photon grenades" from "Arena", they'll quickly find out to their chagrin that modern machine-guns and mortars are completely unaffected by EMP.

3. 50,000 Mobile Infantry from the Starship Troopers Movie

Retards with no mortars, no artillery, no armoured ground vehicles, no sense of tactics, and no brains. All dead, although they take a lot more of the defenders down with them thanks to their high-powered bazookas.

4. 50,000 Klingons

All dead. With their shitty 19th century massed-charge tactics and their use of handguns and bladed melee weapons for armament, they'd be lucky to kill one member of the encircling force. Even if we grant them the pathetic mortars they used in "Nor the Battle to the Strong", (from which a hit less than 3 metres from Dr. Bashir stunned him but did not injure him), they'd STILL be lucky to score a single kill.

5. 50,000 Romulans

Unknown. We've never seen them engage in ground combat.

6. 50,000 Breen

Unknown.

7. 3 Stormtrooper Divisions

On foot? No artillery/armour/air support? Hard to say; they're a lot tougher to kill than regular troops because of their hard-plate armour which can resist small-arms fire, but impacts powerful enough to cause blunt-force trauma through the armour will still kill them. Nevertheless, their armour and extremely powerful hand weapons (assuming they're carrying various squad-support weapons, E-Webs, bazookas, shoulder-launched missiles, grenades, mortars, etc as listed in the books) give them the ability to deal out heavy damage to the encircling forces, including their tanks. Assuming they approach in an intelligent, dispersed manner rather than forming up into a gigantic mob and marching toward the city, the huge disparity between the ease of killing a fully armoured stormtrooper and the ease of killing a normal soldier would have to weigh in the stormtroopers' favour. An E-Web or T-21 can easily destroy a tank, and even a hand blaster may be powerful enough, certainly against light tanks and smaller vehicles. In room-to-room fighting, an enemy soldier could easily hit a stormtrooper with a long burst from his sub-machine gun at close range but not kill him, while the stormtrooper might blindly hit the wall next to the enemy soldier and still score a kill.

8. 3 Imperial Army Divisions

They roll over the enemy.

I have to agree with most of this.

We do know the Breen have a sort of support disruptor, the CRM-114 which can "cut through reactive Armour in the six to fifteen centimetre range, and shields to a capacity of four point six GigaJoules." They still die quickly.

The Stormtroopers will suffer greatly if this is a modern defender. With MRL battalions wiping out a grid square every 45 minutes, there going to take massive losses. Hundreds of thousands of bomblets landing at once wont kill all that many Stormtroopers, but every area only covered by the body suit is going to be full of shrapnel and that will be quite incapacitating.

There going to need a bunch of armor or long range indirect artillery to win.

[Stuart Mackey]

[quote="AdmiralKanos"] 50,000 Klingons
All dead. With their shitty 19th century massed-charge tactics and their use of handguns and bladed melee weapons for armament, they'd be lucky to kill one member of the encircling force. Even if we grant them the pathetic mortars they used in "Nor the Battle to the Strong", (from which a hit less than 3 metres from Dr. Bashir stunned him but did not injure him), they'd STILL be lucky to score a single kill.
[quote]

Ahh Mike, the concept of the massed charge as practiced by the Klingons is more similar to some mideval battles and even then it was only done in acontrolled manner. I think that, certainly in western nations, massed charges of this sort were never done simply because they are so easy to put paid to. The tactics and operational art of the 19th century were quite evolved, and quite probably more than the Klingons could put into practice based on what we have seen in trek.

[Stuart Mackey]

50,000 Klingons
All dead. With their shitty 19th century massed-charge tactics and their use of handguns and bladed melee weapons for armament, they'd be lucky to kill one member of the encircling force. Even if we grant them the pathetic mortars they used in "Nor the Battle to the Strong", (from which a hit less than 3 metres from Dr. Bashir stunned him but did not injure him), they'd STILL be lucky to score a single kill.

Ahh Mike, the concept of the massed charge as practiced by the Klingons is more similar to some mideval battles and even then it was only done in acontrolled manner. I think that, certainly in western nations, massed charges of this sort were never done simply because they are so easy to put paid to. The tactics and operational art of the 19th century were quite evolved, and quite probably more than the Klingons could put into practice based on what we have seen in trek.

[Patrick Degan]

4. 50,000 Klingons
All dead. With their shitty 19th century massed-charge tactics and their use of handguns and bladed melee weapons for armament, they'd be lucky to kill one member of the encircling force. Even if we grant them the pathetic mortars they used in "Nor the Battle to the Strong", (from which a hit less than 3 metres from Dr. Bashir stunned him but did not injure him), they'd STILL be lucky to score a single kill.

Ha ha —they wouldn't even get that far. Since the Klingons' reaction to an entrenched position is to toss away their energy weapons and charge with knives and swords. They'd eschew mortars; 'twould make their deaths less honourable and glorious.

[Stormtrooper THX-1138]

without knowing the compisition of the encircling force, there's really no way to say for sure how well the Stormtroopers would fare. Certianly their lack of any kind of air , armor or artillery is going to hamper them, in that all this really leaves them with are small arms and their squad suppourt weapons.(which they can still cause some of the old ultraviolence with) Their armor would protect them from quite a lot of the mayhem directed at them, but it can only account for so much.

Couple these boys up with their armored counterparts from the Imperial Army, and Watch the Hell Out.

[AdmiralKanos]

We do know the Breen have a sort of support disruptor, the CRM-114 which can "cut through reactive Armour in the six to fifteen centimetre range, and shields to a capacity of four point six GigaJoules." They still die quickly.

Where did we see these things?

The Stormtroopers will suffer greatly if this is a modern defender. With MRL battalions wiping out a grid square every 45 minutes, there going to take massive losses. Hundreds of thousands of bomblets landing at once wont kill all that many Stormtroopers, but every area only covered by the body suit is going to be full of shrapnel and that will be quite incapacitating.

There going to need a bunch of armor or long range indirect artillery to win.

I was thinking of a WW2-era defender (stormies advancing at night, under cover of darkness and/or smoke and using helmet night-vision). Shep should have described the scenario more thoroughly.

[Sea Skimmer]

We do know the Breen have a sort of support disruptor, the CRM-114 which can "cut through reactive Armour in the six to fifteen centimetre range, and shields to a capacity of four point six GigaJoules." They still die quickly.

Where did we see these things?

DS9, Quark is selling them illegally. I forget the Episode however.

The Stormtroopers will suffer greatly if this is a modern defender. With MRL battalions wiping out a grid square every 45 minutes, there going to take massive losses. Hundreds of thousands of bomblets landing at once wont kill all that many Stormtroopers, but every area only covered by the body suit is going to be full of shrapnel and that will be quite incapacitating.

There going to need a bunch of armor or long range indirect artillery to win.

I was thinking of a WW2-era defender (stormies advancing at night, under cover of darkness and/or smoke and using helmet night-vision). Shep should have described the scenario more thoroughly.

I assume modern unless stated otherwise.

As for a WW2 senario..

Parachute flares+ white armor doesn't bode we'll for the Troopers, and there ability to put down sufficient smoke is highly questionable. The Russian doctine called for firing heavy smoke rockets by the thousand in support of divisional sized attackeds, entire BM-21 regiments, 2160 launching tubes, would be loaded with nothing but it for the planned assualt on NATO central front.

Plus troops normally would have fire preplotted and be able to call down a defensive screen without needing for any calculations or spotting.

Bomb let rounds wont be on hand, but a Russian or American defender would still utterly rape the troopers with Artillery. The Russians for shear numbers, they could put down a slid wall across the whole front leaving the troopers with no choice but to attack through it, and the Americans because of the highly response fire control system, though American forces did have a lot of guns and near unlimited ammunition.

[Stormtrooper THX-1138]

Don't forget though, that Stormtroopers aren't helpless:

Their armor is going to protect them from the vast majority of the small-arms fire that the hypothetical "WWII force" can throw at them.

As for artillery... that would be a tough tactical problem to surmount,I admit.But consider this:

Even the most massed artillery needs to know where to target.And if its too dark to see, then blind carpet-fire isn't going to do the trick against an enemy with even a grain of sense.

We've come to find out in recent decades what a godawful advantage night vision equipment is and these Stormtroopers are going to own the night.Their ability to see at night is going to hand them an enormous tactical advantage if for no other reason than they can see the enemy formations long before they themselves are seen.They can move through darkness, at speed, and at will.And if they can move fast enough, they can overrun a position before artillery can accurately respond.Heavy body armor, high-power weapons, mobility and visual advantage: these things will help out Boys in White break free.

[Sea Skimmer]

Don't forget though, that Stormtroopers aren't helpless:

Their armor is going to protect them from the vast majority of the small-arms fire that the hypothetical "WWII force" can throw at them.

As for artillery... that would be a tough tactical problem to surmount,I admit.But consider this:

Even the most massed artillery needs to know where to target.And if its too dark to see, then blind carpet-fire isn't going to do the trick against an enemy with even a grain of sense.

We've come to find out in recent decades what a godawful advantage night vision equipment is and these Stormtroopers are going to own the night.Their ability to see at night is going to hand them an enormous tactical advantage if for no other reason than they can see the enemy formations long before they themselves are seen.They can move through darkness, at speed, and at will.And if they can move fast enough, they can overrun a position before artillery can accurately respond.Heavy body armor, high-power weapons, mobility and visual advantage: these things will help out Boys in White break free.

The six months of the Battle of the Somme would indicate otherwise, as would most combat. Blind fire works quite fine if you have sufficient guns, be the enemy in ranks or dispersed.

Mines and outposts would ensure the guns get into action. And Stormtrooper armor does not make them faster, there going to be slower if anything.

Punching through a thick defnsive belt and then pushing on five or six miles to reach the guns is going to be quite insanly hard.

[Stormtrooper THX-1138]

Never said it would be easy; However, this isn't the battle of the Somme, is it ? If their only goal is to break out, they can do it . Not without losses, true, and they would be stupid to try to actually engage a force like that if they could help it.However, unless the scenario dictates that this encircling force can monitor 100% of their territory , day or night, with absolutely no flaws in their line whtsoever, or weaknesses to be exploited, then they simply cannot reliably prevent the Stormtroopers from slipping away in the dark.Their goal is to break out, not crush the opposition; what happens after is beyond the scope of the scenario.

[AdmiralKanos]

I think the biggest problem with this scenario is Shep's failure to define the encircling force. Everyone has different ideas on its composition and capabilities (eg- Sea Skimmer assumes they are a modern force, I assume they're a WW2 force, Sea Skimmer assumes they have enough artillery to have blind-fire coverage of all possible approach vectors toward an entire city, etc). Come to think of it, we don't even know how big the city is. Without a well-defined scenario, the answer depends very much on how you choose to fill in these blanks.

[The Yosemite Bear]

We'll like David Drake, Sheppard always takes his sinario's from history, however It's still not defined. I think it was some frag up in WWII originally, but I don't know.

Although on the like David Drake point I would say that Col. Hammer with 50,000 men would break it no matter, the cost, even if they were reduced to a few Hundred tanks and cars.

[Stuart Mackey]

Don't forget though, that Stormtroopers aren't helpless:

Their armor is going to protect them from the vast majority of the small-arms fire that the hypothetical "WWII force" can throw at them.

As for artillery... that would be a tough tactical problem to surmount,I admit.But consider this:

Even the most massed artillery needs to know where to target.And if its too dark to see, then blind carpet-fire isn't going to do the trick against an enemy with even a grain of sense.

We've come to find out in recent decades what a godawful advantage night vision equipment is and these Stormtroopers are going to own the night.Their ability to see at night is going to hand them an enormous tactical advantage if for no other reason than they can see the enemy formations long before they themselves are seen.They can move through darkness, at speed, and at will.And if they can move fast enough, they can overrun a position before artillery can accurately respond.Heavy body armor, high-power weapons, mobility and visual advantage: these things will help out Boys in White break free.

The six months of the Battle of the Somme would indicate otherwise, as would most combat. Blind fire works quite fine if you have sufficient guns, be the enemy in ranks or dispersed.

Mines and outposts would ensure the guns get into action. And Stormtrooper armor does not make them faster, there going to be slower if anything.

Punching through a thick defnsive belt and then pushing on five or six miles to reach the guns is going to be quite insanly hard.

A lot depends on the nature of the encircled army. The NZ Division was surrounded at Minqar Qaim by some four German divisions, the Germans planned to attack at dawn, and the Kiwi's knew it. the division massed along a three battalion frontage and attacked with bayonet with no preparitory barrage. Two German battalions of 21st Panzer were effectivly eliminated and 2 NZ division escaped.

[MKSheppard]

We'll like David Drake, Sheppard always takes his sinario's from history, however It's still not defined. I think it was some frag up in WWII originally, but I don't know.

Sorry, this is my first time doing something like LT HITMAN does on ASVS.

This is the Stalingrad scenario, with the 6th Army Encircled by the Soviet
Forces, set in 1942...

[Sea Skimmer]

Never said it would be easy; However, this isn't the battle of the Somme, is it ? If their only goal is to break out, they can do it . Not without losses, true, and they would be stupid to try to actually engage a force like that if they could help it.However, unless the scenario dictates that this encircling force can monitor 100% of their territory , day or night, with absolutely no flaws in their line whtsoever, or weaknesses to be exploited, then they simply cannot reliably prevent the Stormtroopers from slipping away in the dark.Their goal is to break out, not crush the opposition; what happens after is beyond the scope of the scenario.

The goal at the Somme was to puncture the German lines and clear a path and supply line for the Calvary and exploitation forces.

You cannot simply punch a small 1 or so mile hole in the line and expect to be able to evacuate the garrison through it.

[Isolder74]

A friendly army has been encircled in a city, and it MUST BREAK OUT
within a week or else all is lost. A friendly army is massing for a breakthrough attempt. Who would succeed and how/why?

1. 3 Panzer Divisions under Field Marshal Erich von Manstein with 500 tanks and 50,000 troops.

Wouldn't Erwin Rommell do a better job than this moron. This guy indicivness helped the Allies succeed at Normandy

2. 50,000 feddie redshirts under KIRK

With mortors as an availible weapon option these guys will fare ok but with out armor will not succeed

3. 50,000 Mobile Infantry from the Starship Troopers Movie

No armor here either but better weapons so will last a little longer that Kirk's boys

4. 50,000 Klingons

The Klingons will through down their Disruptors and such and run into a detatchment of the "siegers" and get slaughtered

5. 50,000 Romulans
[/quoteK
Fair the same as Kirk's detatchment

6. 50,000 Breen

With their "fancy" armor they would last the longest of the Trek groops

7. 3 Stormtrooper Divisions

Assuming no armor the stormtroopers are to visible and aren't carrying enough firepower to punch through the lines.

8. 3 Imperial Army Divisions

These guys would have AT-AT's, AT-ST's. Speader Bikes and all other kinds of ground vehicles. It can also be surmised that they may also have Tie air cover as well. with thier armor they will be able to smash their way into the city and save the enseiged city.