Disputing Jedi Powers and abilities

[Howedar]

If the Jedi had even 1/10th the abilities that the fanboi have attributed
to them

They do, because all of these abilities are official and/or canon.

[YT300000]

The point I'm trying to make here, is that the Jedi are not as uber powerful
as their various fanboi make them out to be.

If the Jedi had even 1/10th the abilities that the fanboi have attributed
to them, even at their weakened level, they would have been able to
chop the droid army in Genosis up in less than 5 minutes.

Y'know, it's kinda hard to hit a man sized target when it's accelerating
at 50 gees and whacking away with a lightsabre...yet we don't see
the Jedi actually using these combat skills where it would be useful,
other than one brief scene in TPM where OB1 and QGJ run away from
the Droidekai...

I think I might have a theory for this.

Jedi get stupid in large numbers. Something to do with the Force. It's
the only logical explanation for why 1-2 jedi use the Force so much,
but in large groups it's macho enage the enemy with HTH weapons
despite having the Force.

I have a better theory: endurance. In the arena, if you get too tired to block blaster bolts you die. If you jump around a lot, do a lot of TK and run real fast, you get tired. And you die. It takes a certain amount of concentration to use these powers. Take too much off blocking blasts, and you die. A lose, lose, lose situation all around.

In TPM, there were a handful of droids. Kill them, and you won't get real tired, and still be alive.

I'm not saying Jedi are invincible. But unless you have:

1. Another Jedi or
2. Overwhelming firepower

they might as well be. In TPM, when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon mowed down droids, there was neither. In AotC there was 2.

Jedi die. IF you can overpower them. And a Terminator would (unarmed) not have a chance in hell of doing so. With the weapons in my previous post, it's chances would be much better, but they would still probably lose.

[MKSheppard]

They do, because all of these abilities are official and/or canon.

Right, and they're only used once and then promptly forgotten, unlike
Vader's infamous Force Choke.

[Howedar]

They're there, so they're canon. How often they are used is immaterial.


Are you saying that if a capability is only used once then it should not be attributed to the Jedi?

[The Dark]

They're there, so they're canon. How often they are used is immaterial.


Are you saying that if a capability is only used once then it should not be attributed to the Jedi?

It should not be attributed to each and every Jedi. The M1A2 Abrams is there. Does every tanker have one? Hell no! So just because one Jedi has an ability does not mean all Jedi have that ability. We've seen Force Lightning from precisely two Jedi: Dooku and Palpatine. Force Choke from one: Vader. It appears that some abilities (telekinesis at a low level) are common, while others are far more exotic. Not all Jedi have the same level of control, and Vader should be considered to be near the top ability of Jedi (he was considered to have the most potential, was trained heavily in both light and dark side abilities, had apparently survived through hunting Jedi Masters, which requires more talent that Maul, etc, etc). The main fanboi problem IMO is to assume Vader was the lowest common denominator, when clearly canon description of him shows that he was an extraordinary member of the Jedi.

[Howedar]

I thought we were talking about 50g accelerations, which Obi-wan managed before he even got his little Jedi certification?

[MKSheppard]

They're there, so they're canon. How often they are used is immaterial.

So you're saying that all that "one episode and they're gone plot devices"
found in Trek can be used in VS debates?

Seriously, get a grip, and don't become the same thing you acccuse the trek
side of being - whiny fanboi.

There is one possible solution though that does wrap up their poor combat
performance - that the 200~ Jedi scratch force on Genosis was 99% Jedi
Temple personnel - it seems that the Jedi use Jedi exclusively for all the
menial tasks like librarian, etc, probably as a security measure.

And IIRC, there was a line earlier in AOTC about how the jedi
are stretched across the galaxy trying to keep the damn place
from blowin up.

So it's entirely possible that when they recieved the message
about Genosis, they crapped their pants and grabbed anyone
with a lightsabre, even if all they did was use the Force to find
old books and translate them...and so got slaughtered

[Ghost Rider]

Actually David Reynold's went into detail that a good majority of the Jedi who died on Genosis as well as the one shot up by Jango used a form of Lightsaber combat that was not meant for any sort of heavy encounters.

Thus they were the majority to fall and none who used that particular style survived Genosis.

And also it's a bit of fallacious reasoning to call Jedi powers a one timeeffect given that we have seen some degree of high and low end of such powers unlike a Trekkie screaming of the Tox Utat as a weapon for the Federation or the Genesis device or even the Phase cloak.

One is a product of training that each Jedi has some degree of...the other is a one time technological device that one side has no plans or any way of recreating said device.

[MKSheppard]

And also it's a bit of fallacious reasoning to call Jedi powers a one timeeffect given that we have seen some degree of high and low end of such powers unlike a Trekkie screaming of the Tox Utat as a weapon for the Federation or the Genesis device or even the Phase cloak.

Then explain why in TPM Obi Wan and Qui Gon Jinn didn't just get rid of the
Droidekai through Force Throw, which they had used moments earlier
to dispatch a bunch of Soldier Droids, and continued burning through the
blast door? That was a place where Force Throw would have been
perfect...and it had been used MOMENTS BEFORE....

It's pretty much the same damn thing with Trek. They end up in a shitty
spot because they forgot completely about the technobabble solution
and/or device they used in the last episode...

[Ghost Rider]

And like I said before...so Obi was to defend both him and his master...then just hit them with TK.

Strange every other time TK was valuable to cripple a droid they did, but pinned under heavy fire they don't...I wonder why .

[MKSheppard]

Strange every other time TK was valuable to cripple a droid they did, but pinned under heavy fire they don't...I wonder why .

So you're saying OB1 was stupid enough to let those Droidekai unroll,
and reveal their heavy blaster cannon arms without ripping those blaster
cannons off before it could open fire? Is that what you're saying?

[Ghost Rider]

Well let's see did he know they had shielding?

That provided easily the route to basically shrug off their own fire...and continue the assualt, and since no droid they had met up until then had any such...why should he presume they were different?

[MKSheppard]

Well let's see did he know they had shielding?

WOW FUCKING WOW! SHIELDING IN THE SW UNIVERSE BLOCKS THE FORCE!

THANKS! Now all Trek has to do is keep sheilds up to keep the Dark Jedi
from force choking them

[StimNeuro]

Well let's see did he know they had shielding?

That provided easily the route to basically shrug off their own fire...and continue the assualt, and since no droid they had met up until then had any such...why should he presume they were different?

Qui-Gon refered to them as 'Destroyers', indicating that the Jedi had at least passing knowledge of those types of droids.

[Ghost Rider]

Well let's see did he know they had shielding?

WOW FUCKING WOW! SHIELDING IN THE SW UNIVERSE BLOCKS THE FORCE!

THANKS! Now all Trek has to do is keep sheilds up to keep the Dark Jedi
from force choking them

Nice to see you still have not the brain cell to understand...that gee whiz...deflecting fire back to said droid that has shielding, and because of that makes deflection pointless, thus able to lay more amounts of fire Shep.

So you wanna keep going...because so far you basically haven't made a damn point except you're upset when you see wanking.

[MKSheppard]

Nice to see you still have not the brain cell to understand...that gee whiz...deflecting fire back to said droid that has shielding, and because of that makes deflection pointless, thus able to lay more amounts of fire Shep.

Wow, you're really fucking stupid. This is about the Force, and the use of it,
not whether jedi can reflect blasters back to the droids. Why didn't he just
close his fist and crush that Droidekai's braincase like a twig?

[Ghost Rider]

You did watch TPM...you did see the amount of fire the Droidekas were laying out for one Jedi and he wasn't exactly just standing there dumbfounded wondering what the fuck his master was doing?

So you're just going to assume that he'll just stop...concentrate...and viola end of two Droidekas...even though virtually every other time they need a moment or two of concentration to use TK beyond lifting small rocks.

But nop...it's all or nothing, isn't it?

[MKSheppard]

So you're just going to assume that he'll just stop...concentrate...and viola end of two Droidekas...even though virtually every other time they need a moment or two of concentration to use TK beyond lifting small rocks.

Perhaps you weren't watching the same movie as I was.

I saw OB1 stop, turn around whip his hand around, and BOOM, the droids
go slamming down the hallway...not exactly a "moment of concentration."

EDITED: "when he dealt with the battle droids earlier"

[Ghost Rider]

And still your one example is to demonstrate exactly what again?

TKing a droid is an invalid tactic?

Force users are not uniform and onyl certain users have certain powers disregarding that training

or Powers are only just one time things?

Seriously you are harping about the only time they didn't use TK to their advantage as if this is some bonafide proof the Jedi cannot use their powers unless such time as to some divine need.

Literally what is the point of harping about that moment when it it is what it is...Obi Wan under heavy fire...did not know the Droids had shields, and they were caught in a situation where running would've been more acceptable then simply waiting for reinforcements.

So either put up the point you're making or just stop harping about a singular point in the series that the Jedi didn't go TK slam on droids when it would've been advantageous if Obi-Wan did so.

[MKSheppard]

So either put up the point you're making or just stop harping about a singular point in the series that the Jedi didn't go TK slam on droids when it would've been advantageous if Obi-Wan did so.

Oh, so you're doing the Trekkie tactic of claiming that the Jedi will use
this power all the time, DESPITE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY!

For fuck's sake, this is up there with the morons who claim that the E-D
could fucking use her deflector dish to damage SW ships, despite that tactic
being thought up in one episode, and then never used again...ever...even
when it would have been actually useful.

EDIT:

Every damn Jedi Wanker touches themselves at night with the words:

"oh my preciouss jeeedi, don't you worry, you're invincible...you can
force crush those evil terminators, despite not doing it whenever you're
faced with droids."

[MKSheppard]

Literally what is the point of harping about that moment when it it is what it is...Obi Wan under heavy fire...did not know the Droids had shields, and they were caught in a situation where running would've been more acceptable then simply waiting for reinforcements.

*sigh*

THAT WAS THE FUCKING MOST IMPORTANT PART OF TPM!

If they had broken through the goddamned blast door, they would have
headed off the fucking Trade Fed invasion of Naboo! Aren't the Jedi supposed
to be almighty guardians? No, instead of using the same damn tactic
they used FIVE FUCKIGN MINUTES EARLIER, they let the goddamn Droidekai
unroll leisurely, unpack their weapons, and begin firing, and then FUCKING
RUN AWAY, dooming Naboo to Trade Fed occupation!

[Ghost Rider]

Ah I see so you wish that the plot was changed instead of what it was.

So your complaint has everything to do how you WANTED it turn out instead of accepting that it turned out one way and it is simply up to the observer to figure out why.

[YT300000]

Most destroyers don't have shields.

Obi-Wan [thinking]: I'll let them shoot at me, then deflect their shots and blow them up, much less dangerous.... Shields, aw FUCK!

[MKSheppard]

Ah I see so you wish that the plot was changed instead of what it was.

So in your opinion, Pearl Harbor was a good, accurate, realistic movie?

Or that Starfleet ships have accurate, reliable, fail-safe measures on
their warp cores?

You can't wrap a turd and gold plate it; it'll still be a turd.

[Frank Hipper]

All this is amusing as hell to read, but the fact that the Jedi were soundly defeated in the arena at Geonosis is a huge black spot on the Jedi reputation.
Were they neophytes? Were they really so weak that so many of them couldn't have been more effective against droids? TPM hangar scene seemed to indicate they shouldn't have been mauled the way they were.