Explanation for Federation pacifism?

[TheDarkling]

Theres nothing in what you have quoted that says the Feds are less powerfull that the Roms.

Was it an equal war? the Feds only had a very small fleet deployed to the border when the Cardies were making trouble in Chain of Command certainly nowhere near a full fleet let alone a sizeable Federation fleet.

The galaxy class isnt and that could have easily taken ontwo Galors - not exactly impressnig me are the Cardies.

Yes but all ou war was the only other way that are giving the Klingons the sector.

I have never seen Federation fleet numbers lower than thousands and I cant understand anyone with any knowledge of ST disputing numbers in the thousands.

Ermm why- they didnt know what was going on with Tin Man and if ships were important (5 ships lost cause problems for them seems to be what you are saying) the loss of one would be no small thing.

If the Rommies could build those ships without anyone noticing they cant have been that great an investment (supported by almost all other trek).

I never said they were nothing compared to the Feds just not enough to seriously force the Feds to worry.

The treaty of ALgeron proves nothing - I have shown the Feds at the time had no interest in cloaks and also that the Feds will give upsizeable amounts for peace even against foes who cant challenge them.

Why do yuo think the Cardies and Klingons bothed aimed to capture a sector - in hopes that the Feds would let them have it just to prevent further war, its obvious the Feds hold peace in high esteam - you still havent brought any proof.

[Kamakazie Sith]

LOVOK
After today the only real threats to
us from the Alpha Quadrant are the
Klingons and the Federation. And I
doubt either of them will be a threat
for much longer.

Only real threats: Dismissive
Won't be a threat for much longer: Not considered to be much of a hassle in a war

[\quote]

"This station is the ultimate power in the universe!" <-- Sound familar? Here is my point, the Dominion are just plain arrogant. When they attacked DS9 in "A Call to Arms" IIRC someone says something about the shields holding and Weyoun says something like "Impossible, Federation shields are useless against our weapons" but he was wrong as was Lovok.

The fact that they fought an equal war against the Feddies, landed on their planets and butchered their civilians and still got away with extremely favourable peace agreements.
Even the most stupid pacifist won't agree to that if they're so damn powerful.

Whoa! Who got away with what now? The UFP/Cardies were already at peace TNG "The Wounded" this treaty was sort of a gift if you will.

The Defiant is, again, a new ship, a recent development and not representative of the power of the Federation as a whole for all this time (and it would've been destroyed by the Obsidian Order ships)

Very well their Galor cruisers are no match for a GCS TNG "The Wounded" three phaser blasts disabled a Galor cruiser, and that cruiser got a couple shots off on the E-D with her shields down!

If they had remained caught with the Changling unexposed it would've provoked a full scale war, unless you think Gowron would not have been bothered with Starfleet assassins sent to his backyard to kill him.

They were sent to discover if he was a changling or not and if he was than kill him.

Thousands? Don't give me overblown Trek ship figures again.

What? Now thousands are overblown ship numbers

Weren't the Rommie ships built in secret too? I don't see your point.

The point is 20 ships 10 romulan/10 cardassian are not going to remove the military threat of the Romulans and Cardassians....so Luvok MUST have been refering to their INTEL organizations.

Treaty of Algeron.
And if the Rommies were really so much less than the Feds, why were they so desparate for Romulan help in the war?

We know nothing about the circumstances that led to the treaty. The Romulans retreated into their own space and hid for a long time.

And why did the UFP want their help? Probably to defeat the Dominion, and even with the Romulans help it was still difficult.

[Patrick Degan]

There is no canon source for the name of the treaty which ended the Earth/Romulan War. The Treaty of Algeron is a seperate agreement concluded in 2311 which apparently ended a Federation/Romulan war.

The Federationists apparently cannot win a clear-cut victory in a war on their own. The only reason they haven't been rolled over is because their enemies are even more pathetic than they are.

And as for the state of Federation culture, I think it's because the androids of Planet Mudd took over.

[Kamakazie Sith]

[quote="Patrick Degan"]There is no canon source for the name of the treaty which ended the Earth/Romulan War. The Treaty of Algeron is a seperate agreement concluded in 2311 which apparently ended a Federation/Romulan war.

The Federationists apparently cannot win a clear-cut victory in a war on their own. The only reason they haven't been rolled over is because their enemies are even more pathetic than they are.
[quote]

It seems to me that the Federation does not wish to go all the way and land troops on an enemy capital, if peace can be restored through acceptable circumstances than it will be done.

There are simply not enough details to conclude whether the UFP was in a position to crush it's enemies, or be crushed by it's enemies.

[Patrick Degan]

There is no canon source for the name of the treaty which ended the Earth/Romulan War. The Treaty of Algeron is a seperate agreement concluded in 2311 which apparently ended a Federation/Romulan war.

The Federationists apparently cannot win a clear-cut victory in a war on their own. The only reason they haven't been rolled over is because their enemies are even more pathetic than they are.

It seems to me that the Federation does not wish to go all the way and land troops on an enemy capital, if peace can be restored through acceptable circumstances than it will be done.

There are simply not enough details to conclude whether the UFP was in a position to crush it's enemies, or be crushed by it's enemies.

Sorry, but that doesn't come near to explaining it. When a nation settles a war on terms which aren't exactly favourable to its side (the Treaty of Algeron, the Cardassian/Federation ceasefire), that's an indication that it isn't able to finish an enemy and win a definitive victory. The Federation managed to conquer the Dominion/Cardassian axis with a lot of help from the Klingons and the Romulans and because the Dominion are even more militarily inept than the Federation.

The logic of war demands that the only permanent security lies in outright victory. The object of war is victory. The Federation cannot achieve this object on its own; either due to insufficent military resources or lack of political will. Either way, it shows us a Federation which cannot win a war and is a pathetic organisation, blessed by being surrounded by even more pathetic enemies.

[ClaysGhost]

Maybe the Federation subscribes to the idea that if you go out looking to cause trouble, you will quickly find it, and in spades.

[Admiral Griffith]

Stupididty

[Admiral Griffith]

Stupididty

sorry, that was 'Stupidity'

[Stuart Mackey]

Maybe the Federation subscribes to the idea that if you go out looking to cause trouble, you will quickly find it, and in spades.

Nothing wrong with that so long as you keep a navy that is composed of proper warships not poorly designed exporers. The federations has numerious problems, like the borg, domnion, which point out the sillyness of their design policy. You also have to remember that allthough they may not want to find trouble, trouble may wish to find them and when it does, not having a proper navy has cost them very dearly.

[TheDarkling]

Thats my point - with only the locals to deal with the Feds werent pushed (they probably had enough of a fleet to deal with any enemy not to mention Klingon allies plus they cuold probably out produce anyone and even beat them tech wise once they moved to full war mode (Defiant was designed for Big targets yet it still owns other AQ/BQ ships imagine a warship designed to take on normal sized ships).

However with the advent of the Borg and the Dominion we have seen SF begin to move back to a more military stance (still nothing compared to now but better than early TNG), if the thraest stay constant the or the Feds have learnt their lesson they should actually become a military body (a inefficient one but still).

[Evil Jerk]

Theres nothing in what you have quoted that says the Feds are less powerfull that the Roms.

No, but nothing says they're much more powerful either, they appear to be equals (with Federation pacifism assuring that the UFP acts like it's the weakest).

Was it an equal war? the Feds only had a very small fleet deployed to the border when the Cardies were making trouble in Chain of Command certainly nowhere near a full fleet let alone a sizeable Federation fleet.

Are you implying that the Cardies use their total force while the Feds didn't? I don't think that's said anywhere.

The galaxy class isnt and that could have easily taken ontwo Galors - not exactly impressnig me are the Cardies.

A Klingon garbage scow took out a GCS too, that doesn't mean that Klingon garbage scows could take on the Federation (or maybe they can )
It's more to do with tactics.

Yes but all ou war was the only other way that are giving the Klingons the sector.

Um.. what?

I have never seen Federation fleet numbers lower than thousands and I cant understand anyone with any knowledge of ST disputing numbers in the thousands.

I'm talking about Romulan fleet numbers, they don't appear to have a lot.

Ermm why- they didnt know what was going on with Tin Man and if ships were important (5 ships lost cause problems for them seems to be what you are saying) the loss of one would be no small thing.

After they lost the first one to Tin Man, I'd say they knew it was worth capturing.

If the Rommies could build those ships without anyone noticing they cant have been that great an investment (supported by almost all other trek).

Perhaps, but they were built by the Tal'Shiar, who knows what they can cover up.

I never said they were nothing compared to the Feds just not enough to seriously force the Feds to worry.

Even the most pacifist peoples in the universe would have to be seriously stupid to be constantly worrying about war with someone who doesn't force them to worry.

The treaty of ALgeron proves nothing - I have shown the Feds at the time had no interest in cloaks and also that the Feds will give upsizeable amounts for peace even against foes who cant challenge them.

I have shown that unless they're thoroughly stupid they should have interest, plus people like Pressman who were immensley frustrated with the treaty, and he was supported by many people in Starfleet.

Why do yuo think the Cardies and Klingons bothed aimed to capture a sector - in hopes that the Feds would let them have it just to prevent further war, its obvious the Feds hold peace in high esteam - you still havent brought any proof.

It's proof that they wanted a free victory, and that they viewed the Feds as so weak that they'd just let it go.

"This station is the ultimate power in the universe!" <-- Sound familar? Here is my point, the Dominion are just plain arrogant. When they attacked DS9 in "A Call to Arms" IIRC someone says something about the shields holding and Weyoun says something like "Impossible, Federation shields are useless against our weapons" but he was wrong as was Lovok.

True, but some analysis of the UFP's capabilities at that time must've drawn him to that conclusion, no matter how things later turned out.

Whoa! Who got away with what now? The UFP/Cardies were already at peace TNG "The Wounded" this treaty was sort of a gift if you will.

That's even worse you know.

Very well their Galor cruisers are no match for a GCS TNG "The Wounded" three phaser blasts disabled a Galor cruiser, and that cruiser got a couple shots off on the E-D with her shields down!

Or maybe they got lucky?
Later on, Picard refuses to board a Cardietransport he knows is full of weapons in order to not provoke a war!
Come on, I still believe Picard had a microbe of sense in him, he'd let a military transport continue ferrying weapons in a secret plot to arm for a war later on if the Feds could so easily cream Cardie ships?

They were sent to discover if he was a changling or not and if he was than kill him.

Okay, you're Gowron, these people who planted strange devices around your hall and who include Worf who hates your damn guts for betraying him and tried to fight you to the death say they were only looking for Changlings and were not trying to kill you.
What would you believe?

The point is 20 ships 10 romulan/10 cardassian are not going to remove the military threat of the Romulans and Cardassians....so Luvok MUST have been refering to their INTEL organizations.

Or he was talking about the fact that the Cardies and Rommies would be seriously weakened by the loss of their secret police (and he was right, the Romulans hide behind their sofas and signed a non-aggression pact and the Cardie Central Command fell flat on it's face which ultimatley lead to it joining the Dominion).

We know nothing about the circumstances that led to the treaty.

We know that it was ludicrously assymetrical and that not everybody was happy with it, it has all the signs of something that was imposed on the UFP.

The Romulans retreated into their own space and hid for a long time.

By all appearances, this looked to be by choice.

And why did the UFP want their help? Probably to defeat the Dominion, and even with the Romulans help it was still difficult.

Exactly, if the Feds were so damn powerful why did they have so much trouble against the Cardie/Dominion EXPEDITIONARY FORCE alliance?

[Evil Jerk]

However with the advent of the Borg and the Dominion we have seen SF begin to move back to a more military stance (still nothing compared to now but better than early TNG), if the thraest stay constant the or the Feds have learnt their lesson they should actually become a military body (a inefficient one but still).

True, the constant barbarian at the gates attacks seem to be teaching them a few lessons, this is just my opinion but I get the impression that the 29th century Feds are a police state, nothing more militarized than that.

Then again, they made Janeway an Admiral.. I hope she's not anywhere near the military side of things..

[TheDarkling]

Janeway was made an admiral so they could tie her to a desk so she couldnt do anymore harm (since a firing squad would have taken away good PR material).

A Klingon Garbage scow took out a GCS without shields (it also got destroyed I might add) and the GCS was know for its warp core problems.

The Romulans dont appear to have a lot of ships? if that is too then how could they stand against the Federation if the Federation has numerical advantage and near parity at the top end of the scale.

The first one they lost to Tin man was the ships they had already destroyed (they pushed the engines so far that the ship was a loss).

Agreed that the Tal'Shiar could cover it up but not if 5 ships was a huge undertaking as you seem to believe.

The Feds worry about war full stop they seek to simlpy create peace with everyone - you have seen the show right?

The cloak was there for the taking and they never did it was only the super amazing Phase cloak that Pressman wanted.

Exactly my point they thought they could annex a sector (maybe a system I cant recall) and then get peace because the Feds are pacifists but they didnt go for an all out war because the Federation would have beat them into the ground.

Lovok thought that the founders would pull off their Klingons Vs Feds war and they obviously the Romualns would strike (agianst either of both) the Dominion would then waltz in and claim victory - Lovok over estimated the Founders ability to manipulate not under estimated the Feds/Klingons military powers.

Got lucky? he Galors have been shown to be weaker than Feds counter parts, the cardies were if anything a minor race with a bit of an upgrade - the Klingons took them apart at first (true they did have surprise on their side) it was only when the Feds threatened Gowron and said he was playing into the Dominions hands that he settled for what he had taken.

Lets also not forget that the Klingon Invasion (as well as other factors such as the Marquis and the possibly the Fed war further back) was enough to break the back of the Cardies and send them begging to the Dominion.

The dominon forces werent expeditionary - the dominon was building ships faster than the Feds (the dominon were great at building ships) and they had 30,000 vessels at least (including Cardy and Breen).

Also dont forget that it should take the Feds a year to gather their forces (it would take less than this in reality but for all forces to be in on the war would take 1 year - the majority would take less), they also had to switch to a war footing and still police their borders with other races who might take advantage (they still has substantial forces along the neutral zone until the Romulans joined the effort - once they did further Feds forces were freed up), once the Romulans enetered the Alliance the Dominion was beaten.

I would also remind you the Dominion sought out a treaty with the Feds after the deafet at DS9 and the Dominon could continue to fight and win (the Dominion did this to buy white, the Feds do it to buy peace).

If you just accepthat the Federation prise peace above all else their treaty making begins to make sense instead of painting the Federation as an entity thats weaker than the Romulans (to whom 5 ships is a big deal), to the cardies to whom the Klingons pose a huge threat and also the Sheilak and so on.

The Feds simply like peace if they decided 5 minutes after endgame they wanted the AQ and BQ both would be theirs within a hundred years (barring those super races that are dotted around) simply because against the other local powers the Federation is a sleeping giant.

[Tsyroc]

However with the advent of the Borg and the Dominion we have seen SF begin to move back to a more military stance (still nothing compared to now but better than early TNG), if the thraest stay constant the or the Feds have learnt their lesson they should actually become a military body (a inefficient one but still).

True, the constant barbarian at the gates attacks seem to be teaching them a few lessons, this is just my opinion but I get the impression that the 29th century Feds are a police state, nothing more militarized than that.

While they obviously did increase their production I thought it was interesting that the Dominion War didn't impact people on Earth that much until the Breen attack and then that was a big shock.

Then again, they made Janeway an Admiral.. I hope she's not anywhere near the military side of things..

I'm only hoping they did that to get her away from a ship. After TOS I can't see why anyone would want to get promoted above Captain. Only the Admiral (Ross?) in the last few seasons of DS9 seemed to have much of a clue. All the others are either idiots or have a superiority complex that ends up making them criminals or complete idiots. Janeway will fit in nicely. (Why couldn't they just shoot her? Why? Why?)

Too bad Kirk couldh't have been promoted to Commodore like Decker in TOS. Personally, in TNG era I don't see any reason why they couldn't have Admirals cuising around on ships as part of a Battle (or Exploration) Group, similar to what is currently done in the USN. The Admiral wouldn't command the ship but the group.

[aerius]

Their best ship are nowhere near as powerfull a sthe Feds and they seem to be alot smaller aswell, in the episode where the Defiant gets hijacked it cuts through Cardy ships like they arent there.

The Defiant is, again, a new ship, a recent development and not representative of the power of the Federation as a whole for all this time (and it would've been destroyed by the Obsidian Order ships)

Actually the ships the Defiant took out were Obsidian Order ships. I remember dialogue about the "Orias System" and "heavily modified keldan cruisers". These were the ships that were later used in the Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order invasion in TDIC.

[Slartibartfast]

It's most likely the result of propaganda, remember the TOS Federation had people who did know when to lay on the smackdown when necisarry.

Yeah, they were called "tv studio executives"

[Evil Jerk]

Janeway was made an admiral so they could tie her to a desk so she couldnt do anymore harm (since a firing squad would have taken away good PR material).

True.

A Klingon Garbage scow took out a GCS without shields (it also got destroyed I might add) and the GCS was know for its warp core problems.

Perhaps, but it shows that a battle may not always give the expected results.

The Romulans dont appear to have a lot of ships? if that is too then how could they stand against the Federation if the Federation has numerical advantage and near parity at the top end of the scale.

Mainly because until the Dominion war, the Feds were unable to field many ships together.

The first one they lost to Tin man was the ships they had already destroyed (they pushed the engines so far that the ship was a loss).

Oh.
Well, they obviously still thought it wass valuable enough.

Agreed that the Tal'Shiar could cover it up but not if 5 ships was a huge undertaking as you seem to believe.

Not a huge undertaking as such but not apparentley a run-of-the-mill one either.

The Feds worry about war full stop they seek to simlpy create peace with everyone - you have seen the show right?

Sure but there's a difference between their kind of intense pacifism and outright moronery.

The cloak was there for the taking and they never did it was only the super amazing Phase cloak that Pressman wanted.

But Pressman did voice his frustration at *any* type of cloak being held back, the phase-cloak being his way of making up for the disparity.

Exactly my point they thought they could annex a sector (maybe a system I cant recall) and then get peace because the Feds are pacifists but they didnt go for an all out war because the Federation would have beat them into the ground.

You could look at it that way, but getting a free victory even if the enemy is less powerful/equal to you is always a more desired option.

Lovok thought that the founders would pull off their Klingons Vs Feds war and they obviously the Romualns would strike (agianst either of both) the Dominion would then waltz in and claim victory - Lovok over estimated the Founders ability to manipulate not under estimated the Feds/Klingons military powers.

Perhaps, I'd say it was a little of both.

Got lucky? he Galors have been shown to be weaker than Feds counter parts, the cardies were if anything a minor race with a bit of an upgrade - the Klingons took them apart at first (true they did have surprise on their side) it was only when the Feds threatened Gowron and said he was playing into the Dominions hands that he settled for what he had taken.

Lets also not forget that the Klingon Invasion (as well as other factors such as the Marquis and the possibly the Fed war further back) was enough to break the back of the Cardies and send them begging to the Dominion.

That was after the Central Command fell and the Cardies were in chaos, I believe it's mentioned that the Klingons took advantage of the turmoil in order to get free victories.

The dominon forces werent expeditionary - the dominon was building ships faster than the Feds (the dominon were great at building ships) and they had 30,000 vessels at least (including Cardy and Breen).

It was still an expeditionary force, whether or not they could build extra ships is irrelevant, and I'm sure they had something 20,000 ships, not 30,000.

Also dont forget that it should take the Feds a year to gather their forces (it would take less than this in reality but for all forces to be in on the war would take 1 year - the majority would take less), they also had to switch to a war footing and still police their borders with other races who might take advantage (they still has substantial forces along the neutral zone until the Romulans joined the effort - once they did further Feds forces were freed up), once the Romulans enetered the Alliance the Dominion was beaten.

That's one of the reasons they aren't substantially stronger than the other empires, their forces are spread too thin.

I would also remind you the Dominion sought out a treaty with the Feds after the deafet at DS9 and the Dominon could continue to fight and win (the Dominion did this to buy white, the Feds do it to buy peace).

If they did it to by White, there's your answer, it can't function without it, thanks to their stupidity.

If you just accepthat the Federation prise peace above all else their treaty making begins to make sense instead of painting the Federation as an entity thats weaker than the Romulans (to whom 5 ships is a big deal), to the cardies to whom the Klingons pose a huge threat and also the Sheilak and so on.

I'm not saying they're weaker, I'm saying they're not more powerful.
Their absurd pacifism has no excuse.

The Feds simply like peace if they decided 5 minutes after endgame they wanted the AQ and BQ both would be theirs within a hundred years (barring those super races that are dotted around) simply because against the other local powers the Federation is a sleeping giant.

And while it's forces invaded, say, the Klingons, who would stop the Romulans from poking in their territory and slapping them around?
Doesn't work the way you say, in the war it's forces were spread so thin that they didn't leave behind anything to protect Betazed when a local fleet went on training!
They're simply spread to thinly to ever be so much more powerful than the others.

[Evil Jerk]

Actually the ships the Defiant took out were Obsidian Order ships. I remember dialogue about the "Orias System" and "heavily modified keldan cruisers". These were the ships that were later used in the Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order invasion in TDIC.

As far as I remember, Tom Riker was looking for those ships to expose fishy Cardie secret construction, or something like that.
But the ships it sent packing were ordinary Galors. When the Defiant caught the modified ships, they would've destroyed it had not a Galor extended it's shields around the Defiant.

[TheDarkling]

Thats my point on a local level the Feds probably match up to the Romulans but if the war isnt over quickly the Feds pull forces from across their space and bring a hammer to bear on those who annoy them, not to mention the feds have a technical advantage and an industrial advantage.

This is why the Federations enemies favour these quick grab a sector wars then sue for peace and the Feds being pacifists agree, this is a weakness in my opinion because all the Federation need do when say the Tholians attack (or some other minor race) instead of sitting down to peace is gather their forces and beat them into the ground as an example to not mess with the Feds.

In total war no one but the Dominon and the Borg are equal to or greater than the Feds.

It was 30,000 ships by the way but this included Breen and Cardy ships aswell, the ability to build that many ships is impressive and we also dont know how many ships they sent into the AQ but they continued to send reinforcements after the Cardies joining them right up until the Wormhole was mined.

[Seele]

I’m just going to throw my 2 cents. My opinion is that when the Cardies fought the Feds, the Cardies was fighting a major war for territory and the Feds fought a defensive border skirmish. The Feds defended and won most engagements but never pushed back. And due to the Feds wanting peace over anything, they sued for peace then sacrificing some colony worlds for the peace.

[beyond hope]

Just a reply to one of the earlier posts: there are definite relationships between certain chemicals in the brain (serotonin, for one) and aggression. I noticed this when I was on antidepressants (which increase the serotonin level,) I became much more combative and argumentative (I normally tend to be a fairly passive person.) Sure, it's probably a complex problem: eye color alone is determined by the interplay of at least a dozen genes, I can only imagine how many contribute to one's psychological makeup. That doesn't mean that it's not possible however: after all, we have proof from TOS that genetic manipulation was practiced (Khan.) They've had a few centuries to work on it since then. Assuming the Feds are on the level about "no gene manipulation under penalty of law," regulation of hormones could be an alternative means.