Defining natural

[Shrykull]

Where is the line between something natural and unnatural drawn. I read wiccan site once that it stated that magic is natural that there's nothing supernatural about it, even though it doesn't happen without human intervention, it's something they intentionally try to do.
It made me think of Ben Bartlett exchange on the hate mail page when MW was saying that the scientific method always assumes a natural cause for everything that happens, wonder what they mean by "magic is natural"

[kojikun]

when it ceases to be there regardless of human intervention

[Joe]

Where is the line between something natural and unnatural drawn. I read wiccan site once that it stated that magic is natural that there's nothing supernatural about it, even though it doesn't happen without human intervention, it's something they intentionally try to do.

They're bullshitting, of course, as the religious have since the dawn of time. How can a nonexistent force be natural?

It made me think of Ben Bartlett exchange on the hate mail page when MW was saying that the scientific method always assumes a natural cause for everything that happens, wonder what they mean by "magic is natural"

Probably that magic is a natural force that exists in the world. They just neglect to come up with any empirical evidence to back up this claim.

[Rye]

I define natural as something spontaneous, it doesn't need a being to set it off, or structure it to happen.

This would make things like human settlements and birds' nests unnatural...but leave plants and biological processes etc natural.

[mdaw2]

I define natural as something spontaneous, it doesn't need a being to set it off, or structure it to happen.

This would make things like human settlements and birds' nests unnatural...but leave plants and biological processes etc natural.

It would also make any animal un-natural...

[Rye]

I define natural as something spontaneous, it doesn't need a being to set it off, or structure it to happen.

This would make things like human settlements and birds' nests unnatural...but leave plants and biological processes etc natural.

It would also make any animal un-natural...

How so? DNA is naturally self replicating, and sexual reproduction is a function of evolution. Which is also natural. Let's not leave out asexual reproduction either.

[mdaw2]

I define natural as something spontaneous, it doesn't need a being to set it off,

Without checking my textbooks, im 99% DNA is not self-replicating, it in fact needs other stuff to replicate. Also, animals need other animals to reproduce, so by your 'logic' they arent natural.
And before you start with asexual reproduction, i'll specifically say that you are saying 'Elephants are not natural' in your earlier post

[Rye]

I define natural as something spontaneous, it doesn't need a being to set it off,

Without checking my textbooks, im 99% DNA is not self-replicating, it in fact needs other stuff to replicate. Also, animals need other animals to reproduce, so by your 'logic' they arent natural.
And before you start with asexual reproduction, i'll specifically say that you are saying 'Elephants are not natural' in your earlier post

As if i was.::coughstrawmancough:: Let's see what dictionary.com says.

Dictionary.com

Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.
Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
Faithfully representing nature or life.

SO NER .

[mdaw2]

I define natural as something spontaneous, it doesn't need a being to set it off, or structure it to happen.

This would make things like human settlements and birds' nests unnatural...but leave plants and biological processes etc natural.

That looks like it's how you define it, but you seem to have failed to credit dictionary.com for your definition.

btw strawman?

'Natural doesnt need a being to set it off' <- your post
'An animal is a being' <-my (and i'd guess most people's views)
'An elephant is an animal' <-my (and i'd guess most people's views)

Therefore, according to your logic, an elephant is not natural

[Rye]

Fiiiiiiine, from now on, my definition will be this one:

Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.
Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
Faithfully representing nature or life.

[mdaw2]

back to the question, anything that exists is in someway natural. Just 'cos it's been made by humans, doesn't mean it's not natural. It may just be naturally occuring only when humans (which are natural) have made it (naturally, just because they can)

[kojikun]

If an animal is natural then so is a human. if an animals makings are natural then so are a humans. which makes sense, because we are driven by our nature as humans to do the things we do (we take drugs because our bodies like feeling good, we drive cars because we want to make more money to support our families, we build spaceships because its a foothold in space which will eventually preserve our species). So if we take it that everything caused by animals is natural then everything caused by humans is natural because they possess the same reasons behind their causes.

However natural really ends when alterations are done to the milieu by life, be that life planets, ants, dogs, or humans.

The issue here is which meaning of natural do we mean, "occuring in nature" or "inherently occuring". The two are similar but subtly different. Tooth marks on bones are inherently occuring because they're just bound to show up, but they're not occuring in nature because they require something to make those teethmarks where there wouldnt be any before. It all depends on which version of natural you mean.

[Rye]

It all depends on which version of natural you mean

Yeah, that's what i thought. Maybe there's natural events, which happen on their own due to the rules of the universe, and natural behaviour as dictated by your genes etc. Like, building a shelter of some kind would be natural behaviour, but the building itself would not be a "natural" state for the building materials to be in.

OR something.

[Wicked Pilot]

Natural means women with hairy legs and hairy other places. Therefore natural is bad.

[Slartibartfast]

Natural as defined is basically anything manmade.

"Nature" magic is just that, magic that has a nature theme to it. I can have a "nature" building, just put a lot of trees in it and birds and shitty wiccan stuff, and I have a "nature"-themed building. It's still unnatural.

If man does something that isn't against his instincts or those of other animals (ex: sex, or gregarism) then I'd say it's natural.

A dog fetching a ball... well, it's difficult to say. Obviously the ball wouldn't be there if it weren't for man, but I think dogs just like to fetch stuff and play. Playing = natural.

[Alyeska]

I define everything as natural. Animals are part of nature and thus anything they do is already natural and part of their basic nature. Thus anything humans do is natural. Thus the New york skyline is just as natural looking as a forrest or mountain range.