Jedi versus really skilled human

[Lord of the Farce]

Obi-Wan was a Padawan too, and he was able to pull off a multi-story jump right after falling down there in the first place. Also, you theory doesn't account for Jedi powers in official literature.

Except that was ten years before and when the Jedi had their full powers available

What do you think my point was?


EDIT: To clarrify...

This is one thing I have belived to be a misinterpretation. I dont think that Jedi lost any power as such, as Palpy prevented them from seeing certain things, like his manipulation of the senate.

Look at the context, he was talking about their inability to detect the clone army.
As to general Jedi abilities, what did we see? Obi trying to capture, not kill Jango, and a bunch of half trained padawans getting overwhelmed by firepower, hardly a good indication of lack of overall abilties.

Judging by TPM, when Obi-Wan is in a relatively fresh state, being able to jump around for fairly long distances should have been trivial. Yet, at both Kamino and Genosis, neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan (or any of the other Jedi, as far as I can recall) hop out of the way of danger (EDIT: besides Anakin's single jump).

So on, so forth.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, he was clearly more skilled than most Jedi at Geonosis, as he survived while most died.

This attributed to different Lightsaber arts, according to the official site I think it was, most of the jedi who died practiced Form VI, some info about Form VI:

In the time of Palpatine’s Chancellorship, Form VI is the current standard in Jedi lightsaber training. This form balances the emphases of the other forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power. It is considered the “diplomat’s Form” because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy and negotiation.

[Stuart Mackey]

That most of them were padawan learners makes more sense and explains the death toll.

Obi-Wan was a Padawan too, and he was able to pull off a multi-story jump right after falling down there in the first place. Also, you theory doesn't account for Jedi powers in official literature.

In AOTC , Obi-Wan is a full Jedi with his own padawan. My theory also accounts for canon, which overides official literature. I would also point out that by splitting up the group of Jedi in the arena fight would subject the jedi force to what is known as defeat in detail.

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't see canon overriding official literature, I see you trying to override it with your theory, that does not wash.

[Stuart Mackey]

I don't see canon overriding official literature, I see you trying to override it with your theory, that does not wash.

Expalin.

[His Divine Shadow]

Your theory, or explanation hinges on certain assumptions made by you, this theory would then override official material, hence it's not canon overriding it, but your theory on canon that overrides official, only explicit contradictions from canon can override official material, in this case there are none, and as I am aware, there are explanations that does not override anything, by default they are prefferable.

On a personal note, I disagree with you about Mace's comment and context on their ability to use the force, to me it does not seem to indicate only their farsight but rather the force as a whole, and official evidence exists of Sith powers that debilitate their opponents.

[Stuart Mackey]

Your theory, or explanation hinges on certain assumptions made by you, this theory would then override official material, hence it's not canon overriding it, but your theory on canon that overrides official, only explicit contradictions from canon can override official material, in this case there are none, and as I am aware, there are explanations that does not override anything, by default they are prefferable.

On a personal note, I disagree with you about Mace's comment and context on their ability to use the force, to me it does not seem to indicate only their farsight but rather the force as a whole, and official evidence exists of Sith powers that debilitate their opponents.

Well I wont go too far with this as I have not read AOTC.
However It does stand to reason that Padawans are not going to perform as well as a full Jedi, as such they would not want to split up and reduse their overall defensive strength.
It is also True that no one has yet explained exactly how the Jedi abilities with the force have been degraded, or why.
It is also true that the conversation about the degradation in jedi power was about the lack of knowledge of the clone army and did not cover anything else other than a unspecified inability to manipulate the force.
Hence "Blind we have been..." this does not say they are less able to defend themselves.
As such I think its premature to directly link this to the arena fight or a jedi's personal capabilities..

Also does any one know exactly how the force acts outside of the individual? Given that each Jedi has a midi-colorean count that determines their raw potential, does the reduction in jedi manipulation of the force relate to 'strategic' forsight?
Does it somehow reduce the individuals pesonal contact with the force, or does it have a direct physical effect on midi-colorans? if it does where is the evidence of such a reduction?.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also does any one know exactly how the force acts outside of the individual? Given that each Jedi has a midi-colorean count that determines their raw potential, does the reduction in jedi manipulation of the force relate to 'strategic' forsight?

Midi-chlorian counts are not 100% truthfull to my knowledge, Luke also hints at something along that line of reasoning here:
========================
"Born with the gift, do you mean, or born to someone who already belongs, to a trained adept?"

"Is the gift not in the blood?"

"Sometimes it seems that way. Sometimes it seems as if the talent goes wild, almost as if the Force chooses its own," Luke said, turning on his back and propping one foot on the control panel.
========================
-Shield of Lies

[Smiling Bandit]

Too many... variables... blech.

Sigh, I suppose we'll have to give this up as a bad job. We'll probably never have a canon answer, unless Episode III shows the Jedi unable to use the force much at all.

[Darth Wong]

What I find amusing about this bullshit is that there are idiots out there who honestly seem to think that OBSERVED abilities can be somehow discounted if you don't understand why they don't use them in <insert situation here>.

Get it straight: we did see Jedi leaping up several stories into the air. We did see Jedi using TK to levitate multi-ton objects, disable war robots without having to damage their external shells, etc. We did see Jedi accelerating at some 50Gs or more (for those who would fight the claim, look up the original thread yourself; others have gone the same route and failed). So arguing that they can't do these things is sheer idiocy.

There are innumerable possible reasons why the Jedi did not do those things at the Geonosis arena, but the "we hate the Jedi" people seem to be insisting that there's only one explanation: that they do not have these abilities at all. This is by far the worst possible explanation, given the fact that the aforementioned abilities have been observed. Deal with it.

[Darth Fanboy]

Get it straight: we did see Jedi leaping up several stories into the air. We did see Jedi using TK to levitate multi-ton objects, disable war robots without having to damage their external shells, etc. We did see Jedi accelerating at some 50Gs or more (for those who would fight the claim, look up the original thread yourself; others have gone the same route and failed). So arguing that they can't do these things is sheer idiocy.

While I agree with Darth Wong here, the only thing I can think of resembling a flaw in that argument is the fact that not all Jedi have the same abilities. Some are stronger in things such as the mind trick or telekinesis while force enchanced skills might be another area. It is implied that the jedi Jango Fett shot off a balcony was not particularly skilled with combat related force techniques.

but on the flip side, remember that Mace Windu scraped together the jedi Force at Geonosis , perhaps on such short notice he could not gather the greatest Jedi warriors. Note that prestigious Jedi such as Ki Adi Mundi and Plo Koon were doing something else at the time and this could be said for other jedi elsewhere. 200 Jedi of 10,000 Jedi or so, we couldn't expect that those 200 would be the pinnacle of the Jedi's fighters.

Feel free to pick apart at leisure

[Darth Wong]

While I agree with Darth Wong here, the only thing I can think of resembling a flaw in that argument is the fact that not all Jedi have the same abilities. Some are stronger in things such as the mind trick or telekinesis while force enchanced skills might be another area. It is implied that the jedi Jango Fett shot off a balcony was not particularly skilled with combat related force techniques.

Except that this same Jedi (Obi-Wan) was observed to perform all of those feats himself in TPM (multi-storey vertical leaps, TK takedowns of multiple simultaneous battledroids, high-G acceleration).

[Darth Fanboy]

While I agree with Darth Wong here, the only thing I can think of resembling a flaw in that argument is the fact that not all Jedi have the same abilities. Some are stronger in things such as the mind trick or telekinesis while force enchanced skills might be another area. It is implied that the jedi Jango Fett shot off a balcony was not particularly skilled with combat related force techniques.

Except that this same Jedi (Obi-Wan) was observed to perform all of those feats himself in TPM (multi-storey vertical leaps, TK takedowns of multiple simultaneous battledroids, high-G acceleration).

I was referring to the task force at Geonosis, not Obi Wan specifically.

Although in each of those situations he was in a much smaller engagement?

[Darth Wong]

Except that this same Jedi (Obi-Wan) was observed to perform all of those feats himself in TPM (multi-storey vertical leaps, TK takedowns of multiple simultaneous battledroids, high-G acceleration).

I was referring to the task force at Geonosis, not Obi Wan specifically.

True, but while I rushed the wording, I meant to say that Obi-Wan was in that same battle, and he wasn't using those powers. Any argument about Jedi in that battle not using those powers must deal with the fact that Obi-Wan himself was there, and he had personally used those powers many years earlier, as a much less experienced Jedi (a Padawan, in fact).

Although in each of those situations he was in a much smaller engagement?

I think we have to consider the possibility that Jedi force use is tiring, or that it takes a half-second or so in order to concentrate and use it, which is too much delay while blocking shots from hundreds of battle droids (some of whom are firing on full-auto).

[Darth Fanboy]

That would make the most sense.

Once again we agree but I bring up this point, why didn't he do that in the arena when his sole opponent was the Reek?

Edit (For elaboration)

In the Arena, Obi vs. the Reek he tended not to use too many fancy Jedi abilities. Was Dooku perhaps restricting his and Anakin's ability in some way?

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

There are innumerable possible reasons why the Jedi did not do those things at the Geonosis arena, but the "we hate the Jedi" people seem to be insisting that there's only one explanation: that they do not have these abilities at all. This is by far the worst possible explanation, given the fact that the aforementioned abilities have been observed. Deal with it.

Thank you.
What annoys me is the degree that in this thread, one comment, the force use commnet made by Mace, has been distorted into an outright strawman, that all Jedi are less personally able than in TPM. What I do know is that Palpy can and has sheilded his actions on a massive scale "The dark side clouds everything" which explains why the Jedi did not detect the clone army. It has never once been said that they are less able to defend themselves.

[His Divine Shadow]

What annoys me is the degree that in this thread, one comment, the force use commnet made by Mace, has been distorted into an outright strawman, that all Jedi are less personally able than in TPM. What I do know is that Palpy can and has sheilded his actions on a massive scale "The dark side clouds everything" which explains why the Jedi did not detect the clone army. It has never once been said that they are less able to defend themselves.

And it annoys me how you refer to it as a distorted strawman as if your own conclusions are any more right than ours.

[Darth Fanboy]

Thank you.
What annoys me is the degree that in this thread, one comment, the force use commnet made by Mace, has been distorted into an outright strawman, that all Jedi are less personally able than in TPM. What I do know is that Palpy can and has sheilded his actions on a massive scale "The dark side clouds everything" which explains why the Jedi did not detect the clone army. It has never once been said that they are less able to defend themselves.

Infact this board is the only place where I have seen people interpret Windu's words to mean that the jedi were in some way handicapped. Their clairvoyance was clouded, but I would assume that their other abilities were maintained somewhat.

Fun Fact: The jedi shot off the balcony by Jango Fett was a Jedi council Member named Coleman Trebor, who practiced the Diplomat's form and was unable to face jango at close range. As close to a Pacifist as you could get ithout forsaking weapons IIRC

[Stuart Mackey]

What annoys me is the degree that in this thread, one comment, the force use commnet made by Mace, has been distorted into an outright strawman, that all Jedi are less personally able than in TPM. What I do know is that Palpy can and has sheilded his actions on a massive scale "The dark side clouds everything" which explains why the Jedi did not detect the clone army. It has never once been said that they are less able to defend themselves.

And it annoys me how you refer to it as a distorted strawman as if your own conclusions are any more right than ours.

I know my conclution has more validity than yours as you have not shown any evidence to show that the Jedi's personal abilities have been reduced.

What you have done is take one comment and thus stated that all jedi must have had their abilities reduced.
You have not shown any convincing evidence of a mechanism that would cause this.
You have ignored the context of Mace's comment and ignored two others. Those two comments being from Yoda
"Blind we have been, if the creation of this clone army we did not see" and in Palpys office, "The dark side clouds everything"

Your argument is based on a strawman, deal with it.

*Edit, argument is based on stawman, not the thread, as originally written* IIRC

[His Divine Shadow]

Hmm, nope, Mace says their ability to "use the force", pretty clear that, if we assume that Mace speaks only of that one ability, then Mace's comment is weird and errorenous.
It is you who have decided to make assumptions about context and ignore Mace's words wich seems pretty explicit to me.

[Darth Fanboy]

Hmm, nope, Mace says their ability to "use the force", pretty clear that, if we assume that Mace speaks only of that one ability, then Mace's comment is weird and errorenous.
It is you who have decided to make assumptions about context and ignore Mace's words wich seems pretty explicit to me.

But the only thing you have any actual evidence of being diminshed is the Clairvoyance and the ability to sense clones.

If I were a baseball player and I said "my ability to play the game has diminished" but I could still run, catch, and throw properly, and the only thing you saw that had changed was that I wasn't hitting the ball anymore, would you not ligally assume that it was my hitting skill that had diminished?

If the Jedi power to use the force was diminished in so many ways as you say then why was Yoda, an expert himself, still able to stand toe to toe with Tyrannus/Dooku without any real strain on his part. Yoda would have easily won if Tyrannus hadn't tried to drop the column on Obi Wan and Anakin.

[His Divine Shadow]

Because Yoda was greater, even such a handicap didn't help.

If it was only their farseeing abilities I don't see why the enemies of the Jedi would be interested in moving on them, as it didn't negate their combat skills.

As for your analogy, I don't find them compatible myself.

[Smiling Bandit]

Get it straight: we did see Jedi leaping up several stories into the air. We did see Jedi using TK to levitate multi-ton objects, disable war robots without having to damage their external shells, etc. We did see Jedi accelerating at some 50Gs or more (for those who would fight the claim, look up the original thread yourself; others have gone the same route and failed). So arguing that they can't do these things is sheer idiocy.

Obviously they have those abilities, but it seems that they do not or cannot use said powers in many situations where they would be helpful, even life-saving. Darned if I know why.

I still think my patented frag grenade/flamethrower combo would kill one.

[Vympel]

I still think my patented frag grenade/flamethrower combo would kill one.

Doesn't sound so crash hot from where I'm sitting. Replace the piece of fruit that Anakin shows off with in AOTC with a frag grenade, you'll get the general idea.

[Smiling Bandit]

Disguise it. jedi may have a connection to all living things, but their precognition ain't that fast.

Five seconds before detonation:

"Oh crap! Run!"

BOOM! Takes out whole city block.

Unless they use the force speed which they've done' only once. Oh well.

Nuke it all from orbit. Its the onyl way to be sure.