Follow-up to the 1.2 million figure in Shatterpoint

[vakundok]

EDIT: Also deleted, because I misunderstood what HDS wrote. I wish that not only the last post could be deleted ...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Exactly, the WEG figure is 10^17, not 10^28.

[vakundok]

Oh boy, I found my WEG (second edition) RPG book (hungarian edition). It really contains (in chapter VII: The world of Star Wars) nearly 10^17 sapients from approximately 50 million systems.
As I wrote the hungarian edition of the novelisation of AotC states 10^18s of republic citizens. Could someone check the original, wether it is really 10^18s or it is just a translation error? (It is after Amidala's arrival to the Senate (and the session).)

[SPOOFE]

100 american quadrillion, 10^17 total, spread evenly over 50 million planets gives us an average of 2 billion per planet, thats not alot, planets in SW can hold trillions, and easily dozens or hundreds of billions,

Remember that very few planets were as urbanized as Coruscant. I imagine some planets were very luxurious, with only a few million - or even only a few hundred thousand - people on them, using their wealth to secure themselves away from the usual hubbub of the Little People.

Think of it... if I owned my own personal planet (and a goodly number were privately owned), I'd populate it with myself, buddies, and staff to serve them. Everything else would be my little playyard.

[Publius]

100 american quadrillion, 10^17 total, spread evenly over 50 million planets gives us an average of 2 billion per planet, thats not alot, planets in SW can hold trillions, and easily dozens or hundreds of billions,

Remember that very few planets were as urbanized as Coruscant. I imagine some planets were very luxurious, with only a few million - or even only a few hundred thousand - people on them, using their wealth to secure themselves away from the usual hubbub of the Little People.

Think of it... if I owned my own personal planet (and a goodly number were privately owned), I'd populate it with myself, buddies, and staff to serve them. Everything else would be my little playyard.

Dark Empire does list a number of "the most heavily populated worlds", including by name Coruscant, Alsakan, Grizmallt, and Wukkar (p. 76); as Dr Saxton has noted in his description of Imperial Centre, Axxila and Corulag are also very probably heavily populated.

Indeed, the Galactic Emperor's private and personal -- and highly exclusive -- retreat world, Byss, was home to 19.7 billions, or approximately the population of the Earth, trebled. Dac/Calamari, a world with relatively little urbanisation, boasts of a population of 27.5 billions; lightly populated Nal Hutta is home to seven billions, and decadant Nar Shaddaa is estimated to have a population of 72.1 to 94.7 billions.

Even if not all planets are enormous population centres like Imperial Centre, Alsakan, et al., the figures do tend to support populations rather higher than the terrestrial figure of a mere six billions.

Publius

[CaptainChewbacca]

I would submit that those worlds are outliers of population when compared to the millions of member worlds. Tatooine likely had no more than 20 million "citizens", which seems par for rim worlds.

[SPOOFE]

Even if not all planets are enormous population centres like Imperial Centre, Alsakan, et al., the figures do tend to support populations rather higher than the terrestrial figure of a mere six billions.

Quite true, but then, compare the Star Wars population situation to modern America. Most of the population is centered in just a handful of major cities (New York, LA, Chicago, etc.), with thousands upon thousands of other, smaller cities and towns making up the rest of the group.

Look at the example of worlds like Dantooine and Commenor... or, hell, worlds that are almost totally automated, like the droid factory in The New Rebellion or the Tale of IG-88. Worlds like these would easily serve to bring down the overall average.

EDIT: By the way, Publius, is that you with the same moniker over on the SDMB?

[FTeik]

Thyferra, main producer of bacta, was home to only ten-thousand humans and two million natives.

Perhaps we should make a list of underpopulated major worlds in the GFFA.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Thyferra, main producer of bacta, was home to only ten-thousand humans and two million natives.

Perhaps we should make a list of underpopulated major worlds in the GFFA.

Well, of course Thyferra was--but Thyferra was basically a giant bacta farm. I mean, to feed planets like Coruscant you've got to have planets which basically look like an Apparatchik's Traktor Fantasy--GE grain, automation, GE grain, automation, GE grain, automation, and lots and lots and lots more of GE grain.

[Darth Fanboy]

Thyferra, main producer of bacta, was home to only ten-thousand humans and two million natives.

Perhaps we should make a list of underpopulated major worlds in the GFFA.

Well, of course Thyferra was--but Thyferra was basically a giant bacta farm. I mean, to feed planets like Coruscant you've got to have planets which basically look like an Apparatchik's Traktor Fantasy--GE grain, automation, GE grain, automation, GE grain, automation, and lots and lots and lots more of GE grain.

WOuld thatnot be the planet Reytha as depicted in Galactic Battlegrounds? Oneplanet providing I think 1/10 of the foodstuffs consumed by the Imperial Military.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

WOuld thatnot be the planet Reytha as depicted in Galactic Battlegrounds? Oneplanet providing I think 1/10 of the foodstuffs consumed by the Imperial Military.

I would find it hard to believe that a single planet could do that, even a large, high-gravity world with a large surface area that had little ocean and was terraformed for the sole purpose of food production. Perhaps a thousandth. The size of the Imperial Military is at least in the hundreds of billions, and likely the trillions. A single world providing food for a tenth of that number implies a level of efficiency in food production which I find hard to comprehend. Engineering? Easy. Bio-engineering grain to be that efficient?

...Well, if they can do that, it handily explains the near-human species in the Galactic Empire.

[FTeik]

Changes nothing, that Thyferra was a major world.

"Cloak of Deception" confirms, that the majority of the core-worlds is inhabited by humans (as well as Brian Daley´s Han Solo-novels).

Following quote about the galactic economy from "The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology" page 168 :

The spread of technology and civilization led to the development of a so-called galactic economy. Few worlds are entirely self-sufficient. Some specialize in manufacturing high-tech goods yet depend on neighboring agricultural worlds for food. Those agricultural worlds rely on manufacturing worlds to produce the machinery for efficiently harvesting and processing the foodstuffs as well as supplying the chemical industries that make pesticides to kill insects and provide nutrient sprays to speed crop growth. This galactic economy has allowed megacorporations to accumulate tremendous economic and political power.

With plants, that allow several harvests per year it should be possible to nourish one tenth of the imperial military, especially if the majority of the surface is solid ground (and the planet is perhaps bigger than earth).

We also don´t know, what kind of plants are cultivated, for all we know it could be some kind of algea, fungi or rice. We also don´t know, if it is the real food or simply the basis for synthetisized food.

My guess for the imperial military proper (not including various police-organisations like CorSec, or local defenses) would be between 1,000 and 2,000 (american) billion men in fleet and army.

[SPOOFE]

I would find it hard to believe that a single planet could do that, even a large, high-gravity world with a large surface area that had little ocean and was terraformed for the sole purpose of food production.

I could almost buy it, assuming massive hydroponics centers and accelerated plant growth (similar to accelerated clone growth). You'd need the entire planet covered with kilometer-high hydroponics buildings, though...

Although I've always wondered why we haven't heard much about "synthesizers" aside from the occasional reference to Han having one in the Falcon.

[Peregrin Toker]

Just a question: How long after AOTC is "Shatterpoint" set?? 10 years? 12 years?

[Robert Treder]

About Reytha, they could be referring to the entire system when they mention it in GB, not just the planet. If you have a few habitable worlds, plus moons and space stations, they could pump out a lot of food. I don't know why they'd put all their eggs in that one basket of a system, but if the reference must be salvaged, that can help.

[FTeik]

About Reytha, they could be referring to the entire system when they mention it in GB, not just the planet. If you have a few habitable worlds, plus moons and space stations, they could pump out a lot of food. I don't know why they'd put all their eggs in that one basket of a system, but if the reference must be salvaged, that can help.

Well, a few single important systems for industrial or agricultural purposes would allow for larger concentrations of ships and troops to defend them (since they don´t have to be spread out over hundreds of systems) and force (pardon the pun) potential attackers to assemble huge forces of their own.

Such military build-ups would be more difficult to hide and a bigger defense-fleet might prolong a potential battle long enough for re-inforcements to arrive.

Of course, the damage is greater, if the hostile attackers succeed.

[Publius]

Quite true, but then, compare the Star Wars population situation to modern America. Most of the population is centered in just a handful of major cities (New York, LA, Chicago, etc.), with thousands upon thousands of other, smaller cities and towns making up the rest of the group.

Look at the example of worlds like Dantooine and Commenor... or, hell, worlds that are almost totally automated, like the droid factory in The New Rebellion or the Tale of IG-88. Worlds like these would easily serve to bring down the overall average.

An excellent example. In 1990, the population of the United States of America was estimated at 249,632,692, with an average population density of 26.6 persons per square kilometre (source: Grolier Encyclopedia of Knowledge, vol. 19, 1991). Population distribution was approximately 74 per cent. in urban areas, and 26 per cent. in rural areas.

The cities and metropolitan areas of Chicago, Cleveland, Denver, Houston, Los Angeles, New York City, Philadelphia, and Washington account for approximately 51,480,306 persons, or some 20 per cent. of the population of the United States. One may determine, then, that another 54 per cent. of the population (approx. 184,801,654), live in other, smaller population centres.

According to the same model, yes, a very large fraction of the galactic population likely lives in major population centres like Coruscant/Imperial Centre, Metellos, Grizmallt, Alsakan, and Wukkar. However, even so, relatively small population centres will still likely be exceedingly heavily populated by Terrestrial standards (idyllic Nal Hutta, for example, is scarcely populated by galactic standards, has seven billions, and it is more than likely not counted as one of Wilhuff Tarkin’s one million worlds of the Empire).

In fact, the example of the United States leads one to expect much higher population figures for important worlds. If relatively undeveloped and sparsely populated (by galactic standards) worlds like Byss, Nal Hutta, and Dac/Calamari can boast of populations in the billions, major population centres in the Core and the Colonies regions ought to have fantastically large populations, even taking into consideration relative nowheres like Dantooine and Tatooine, and heavily automated industrial centres like Telti and Mechis III, which, as you rightly point out, do bring down the average.

EDIT: By the way, Publius, is that you with the same moniker over on the SDMB?

Where?

Really, the name Publius is rather common. He was, after all, three fairly important figures in early American history, comprising three quarters of President George Washington's most trusted advisers.

Publius

[SPOOFE]

An excellent response, Publius, and I agree with your points. Indeed, while I pointed out the example of Los Angeles (city, not county), one could also point to the example of the San Fernando Valley (where I live) as an area that is not heavily urbanized, but still boasts a rather large population (especially compared to Podunk, Louisiana). The only real question, then, is just how many planets are super-urbanized (like Coruscant), how many are very urbanized, and how many just simply have a lot of people, like massive suburban sprawl.

Where?

Really, the name Publius is rather common. He was, after all, three fairly important figures in early American history, comprising three quarters of President George Washington's most trusted advisers.

Just another message board. I noticed someone with the username Publius that happened to have a similar posting style to your'n.