Trek is dead! Long live Trek!

Oddity · Post by **Oddity** » 2002-09-23 04:44pm

It looks to me like the ST vs SW discussion is over, and Trek is dead, buried and mourned over. There only three types of trekkies left now:

1. The Troll: Doesn't give shit about evidence and only wants to argue. Spews crap.
2. The Newbie: Newcomer who snipes with ancient trekkie arguments which has been shot to pieces aeons ago.
3. The Intelligent Trekkie: Acknowledge that the Feds cannot possibly win a war with the Empire, but argue that the Feds can put up a better fight than we give them credit for.

What do you think? I like to debate, but there is no one left to debate with.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-23 04:56pm

Crazy Ivan wrote:It looks to me like the ST vs SW discussion is over, and Trek is dead, buried and mourned over. There only three types of trekkies left now:

1. The Troll: Doesn't give shit about evidence and only wants to argue. Spews crap.
2. The Newbie: Newcomer who snipes with ancient trekkie arguments which has been shot to pieces aeons ago.
3. The Intelligent Trekkie: Acknowledge that the Feds cannot possibly win a war with the Empire, but argue that the Feds can put up a better fight than we give them credit for.

What do you think? I like to debate, but there is no one left to debate with.

Well the Intelligent Trekkies can and sometimes DO come up with interesting scenarios which are interesting if only for academic discourse. Basically we know who would win in a full out war but there are tons of tiny little facets left to explore and debating can be fun with intelligent Trekkies around who can acknolwedge defeat and just want to argue little points.

Andrew Joshua Talon · Post by **Andrew Joshua Talon** » 2002-09-23 05:50pm

Type #4: Advanced Trekkie (at least on this site): Accepts that the Federation cannot defeat the Empire, so attempts to find ways for the Feds to improve their standing in some way.

We don't bring up old arguments, we try to R&D ways the Feds could upgun themselves given their limits. Wouldn't this be far better? Trek is not dead: It merely needs to evolve.

Captain Hornblower · Post by **Captain Hornblower** » 2002-09-23 06:34pm

Andrew,

R&D is all well and good. Unfortunately, R&D takes time, usually alot of time. Reference the Federations ability to adapt to the Borg incursions. Granted, the Feds were able to eventally adapt, but it took them years. The Empire is not going to be giving them that kinda time. At best, I'd say that the Feds had maybe a year (at the most) before final defeat. Question is, then what?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-23 06:42pm

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote: We don't bring up old arguments, we try to R&D ways the Feds could upgun themselves given their limits. Wouldn't this be far better? Trek is not dead: It merely needs to evolve.

You really didn't read Wong's site, did you? He talks about this fallacious effort by some Trek cultists.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2002-09-23 06:44pm

The Empire has such an advantage that the debate over weapons calcs is not even necessary. You could place the Empire and Federation as having equal firepower, and the Empire still wins with a slaughter, due to it's massive fleet, industrial base, and FTL advantage. With the firepower gap, it's just a quicker slaughter.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-23 06:47pm

What many Trekkies do not see (or refuse to admit) is the sheer vastness of the SW universe. Millions of industrialized planets support the GE (willingly or not), while the Federation is pitifully small in comparison. Additionally, the SW universe has had hyperdrive technology for thousands of years, while the ST universe is barely a few hundred years into space flight, so there is a bit of lead time that would have to be overcome. Futhermore, the GE is geared soley toward war and conquest, so the ships are warships, designed for violent battle and assault, while ST ships are primarily exploration and science vessels with some armament. There is simply no similarity between the two outside of the fact that both traverse space.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-23 06:52pm

Agreed. How can a medieval society "catch up" technologically to our current technology before they were annulled?

Trekkie #: Possessing a non-sexual (?) crush on starship captain James Tiberius Kirk, whose character sheild prevents anything more than a torn shirt and a few bad jokes on Spock, these rabid little net monsters run around espousing the great ventures of Kirk and his crew. Much like a troll, but obsession with Kirk marks them a little too enthuased about ST to be just spewing crap. Much more like a religious zealot than a pure thoughtless troll

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-09-23 07:48pm

Trekkie #6: Cult of Connie member. People who honestly believe that a ship which can only make ascending turns( many times while wobbling slightly to the left or right) while fighting today's glowing ball of the week can actually put up a decent fight.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-09-23 08:14pm

Now, now, there are still some nice SW v. ST debates to be had... it's just that stuff like "GCS vs. ISD" are dead and gone. Personally, I wish that SW would have more information about smaller classes of ships, so we can pit things like Nebulon-B's and Carracks against our favorite Federation ships.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-09-23 08:33pm

As long as there are trolls, there will be an active SW vs. ST debate. It won't be over until everything is settled, and a compromise has been reached.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-09-23 08:49pm

jegs2 wrote:What many Trekkies do not see (or refuse to admit) is the sheer vastness of the SW universe. Millions of industrialized planets support the GE (willingly or not), while the Federation is pitifully small in comparison. Additionally, the SW universe has had hyperdrive technology for thousands of years, while the ST universe is barely a few hundred years into space flight, so there is a bit of lead time that would have to be overcome. Futhermore, the GE is geared soley toward war and conquest, so the ships are warships, designed for violent battle and assault, while ST ships are primarily exploration and science vessels with some armament. There is simply no similarity between the two outside of the fact that both traverse space.

HA!

But it is really the warsies who are not looking at the whole picture! This is called ST vs. SW, not UFP vs. SW Galaxy. It is you who does not see

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-23 08:51pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:As long as there are trolls, there will be an active SW vs. ST debate. It won't be over until everything is settled, and a compromise has been reached.

But somehow they manage to breed new ST ignorant children and they will have to be educated. The circle of life repeats itself as a new troll enters the SD domain in search of enlightenment...

The whole ST vs SW argument might be a little more potent in the pre-clone war days. No ISDs, no Victories even. Even before Acclimators.

Maybe we should be looking for a fight instead of standing on a hill so high and mighty based on that 200 GT quote.

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2002-09-23 09:40pm

There's always literary comparison of the two to be had. Further more, you could postulate the Feddys could win eventually, if they adopted Imperial technologies and waged guerilla warfare. Heck, it worked for the Rebels, right?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-23 09:58pm

The Feds would have a chance if an ISD couldnt take the entire Federation fleet firing a full volley at a single shield and still not lose its shield.

Lets take a Q Torp which has been said to be a shaper 128 MT.
Full Volley = 10 so we have a ship outputing 1.2 GT in a Volley.
Lets take 12,000 Fed ships that gives the entire Fed fleet the power to output 14 Teratons in a volley, I have seen HTL calcs that put a single shot higher than that.

Its late are my quick spit ball calcs right?

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-09-23 10:07pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:This is called ST vs. SW, not UFP vs. SW Galaxy. It is you who does not see

Emperor vs. Q!

Hey, where have all the warsies gone?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-23 10:55pm

Crazy Ivan wrote:It looks to me like the ST vs SW discussion is over, and Trek is dead, buried and mourned over. There only three types of trekkies left now:

1. The Troll: Doesn't give shit about evidence and only wants to argue. Spews crap.
2. The Newbie: Newcomer who snipes with ancient trekkie arguments which has been shot to pieces aeons ago.
3. The Intelligent Trekkie: Acknowledge that the Feds cannot possibly win a war with the Empire, but argue that the Feds can put up a better fight than we give them credit for.

What do you think? I like to debate, but there is no one left to debate with.

I started out as #2 when I first came to SB.com. After a few months there I eventually evolved into #3, that was around the time I worked on the "wong is wrong" essays. After this much time I can't be sure on the dates, all I know is that I surprised many warsies at SB.com after the WIW incident when I stated that IMO I felt a GCS could defeat an ISD, but 25,000 ISDs is way to freaking many ships to deal with, FTL was better, and let us not forget the DS2 industrial capabilities.

IMHO the GCS could still take an ISD (don't even bother comment on this if your going to pull out stats) but I don't bother with debating the firepower issue anymore thanks to ICS, which means I ignore the classic GCS vs ISD debate (which ironically was my first debate at SB.com) and just try and give helpful technical data and information along with detailed analysis of ship capabilities.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-23 11:29pm

Just out of curiosity, HOW do you think a GCS can defeat an ISD?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-09-23 11:35pm

Lets not get into it. If he doesn't try to persuade anyone of that belief, I really don't care what he might personally think.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-23 11:36pm

Let him at least start a new topic for it. I'd actually want to hear it (to see how flawed it is).

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-09-23 11:46pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Just out of curiosity, HOW do you think a GCS can defeat an ISD?

Let's remember MoO, don't pull out stats or anything because that would just be unfair.

IMHO the GCS could still take an ISD (don't even bother comment on this if your going to pull out stats)

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-23 11:51pm

Stravo wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:Just out of curiosity, HOW do you think a GCS can defeat an ISD?
Let's remember MoO, don't pull out stats or anything because that would just be unfair.

IMHO the GCS could still take an ISD (don't even bother comment on this if your going to pull out stats)

I wasn't going to pull out statistics (yet), but I thought it would be interesting to see what he was basing that on.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-24 12:02am

Personal opinion, which has no justification in a debate without the stats the back it up, hence the fact I don't bother debate that point anymore. Before ICS, it wasn't THAT set in stone as to who would win IMO. After ICS (which I disagree with but will not outright object to) I don't even bother anymore. My only interest now is doing a pure ST tech bit to get a more "truthful" firepower level. Regardless it will never come near ICS.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-09-24 12:04am

VF5SS wrote:Trekkie #6: Cult of Connie member. People who honestly believe that a ship which can only make ascending turns( many times while wobbling slightly to the left or right) while fighting today's glowing ball of the week can actually put up a decent fight.

Especially since it's been shown they'd be trashed by Borg cubes.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-24 12:56am

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
VF5SS wrote:Trekkie #6: Cult of Connie member. People who honestly believe that a ship which can only make ascending turns( many times while wobbling slightly to the left or right) while fighting today's glowing ball of the week can actually put up a decent fight.

Especially since it's been shown they'd be trashed by Borg cubes.

That wrecked Connie really fucked over the cult. Course the even more irrational ones try to use that to prove that the Borg have even more powerful Teraton weapons and sheilding, and that all Star Fleet ships must then have Cult Connie firepower..

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