The Saddam was bluffing theory

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The Saddam was bluffing theory

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NYT
CAMP DOHA, Kuwait, Aug. 1 — There is a bold and entirely plausible theory that may account for the mystery over Iraq's missing weapons of mass destruction.

Saddam Hussein, the theory holds, ordered the destruction of his weapon stocks well before the war to deprive the United States of a rationale to attack his regime and to hasten the eventual lifting of the United Nations sanctions. But the Iraqi dictator retained the scientists and technical capacity to resume the production of chemical and biological weapons and eventually develop nuclear arms.

Mr. Hussein's calculation was that he could restart his weapons programs once the international community lost interest in Iraq and became absorbed with other crises. That would enable him to pursue his dream of making Iraq the dominant power in the Persian Gulf region and make it easier for him to deter enemies at home and abroad.

"This is the leading theory," said Gary Samore, director of studies at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies and a former nonproliferation expert on the National Security Council under President Bill Clinton.

American intelligence experts are still in Iraq trying to determine the status of Mr. Hussein's weapons programs, so it is premature to be too categorical about what they will find. What the theory offers, however, is a new way to make sense of the testimony of captured Iraqi officials who claim that weapons stocks were eliminated, Mr. Hussein's pattern of grudging and partial cooperation with United Nations weapons inspectors and his longstanding ambitions in the region.

If true, it means that the Iraqi threat was less immediate than the administration asserted but more worrisome than the critics now suggest. And it means the decision to use military force to pre-empt that threat was not an urgent necessity but a judgment call, one that can be justified as the surest way to put an end to Iraq's designs but still one about which ardent defenders of the United States' security can disagree.

It is already clear that much of the recent debate over Iraq's weapons programs has been too simplistic. In recent months, the discussion of Iraq's intentions seems to have oscillated from one extreme to another. Iraq was described by hawks before the war as a nation that was an imminent threat to the United States, bristling with chemical and biological weapons, or C.B.W., as intelligence agencies call them. Now the administration's critics seem to suggest that the absence of weapons stocks means that the Saddam Hussein regime had somehow abandoned its goal to be an assertive regional power.

[Vym note: Strawman. I certainly read a lot of critic articles and I never once saw the suggestion that Iraq had done anything like abandoning it's goal to be a regional power]

Neither portrait seems accurate. Certainly, the portrait of Iraq that was initially put forward by the Bush administration appears to have overstated the immediacy of the danger. In building its case for pre-emptive military action, the White House suggested that Iraq had weapon stocks and could provide them to terrorists, who could use them to attack the United States. But American intelligence concluded that Mr. Hussein was unlikely to conspire with terrorists to attack America and would do so only if his regime was threatened. It now seems virtually certain that Iraq did not have the stocks to provide weapons of mass destruction, despite the Bush administration's repeated contention that it believes it will find them.

"Baghdad, for now, appears to be drawing a line short of conducting terrorist attacks with conventional or C.B.W. against the United States," says the declassified version of the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's weapons program, which was prepared in October. "Should Saddam conclude that a U.S.-led attack could no longer be deterred he probably would become much less constrained in adopting terrorist actions."

Some of the technical analysis behind the White House charges was also challenged in the estimate. President Bush suggested in February that Iraq could launch drones with germ weapons from ships at sea and use them to attack the United States. While much of the American intelligence community supported that assessment, there was one notable exception: the intelligence arm of the United States Air Force, which has a real claim to expertise in this area since the Air Force has experience in operating advanced drones, also called unmanned aerial vehicles.

"The Director, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance, U.S. Air Force, does not agree that Iraq is developing U.A.V.'s primarily intended to be delivery platforms for chemical and biological warfare (C.B.W.) agents," the declassified version of the estimate notes. "The small size of Iraq's new U.A.V. strongly suggests a primary role for reconnaissance, although C.B.W. delivery is an inherent capability."

But while the White House presented the most alarming interpretation of the available intelligence, it is important to note that the dominant view within the American intelligence community was that Iraq in fact had stocks of poison gas, was continuing its effort to make germ weapons and desired to become a nuclear power. This was not a view that was intended only for public consumption. It was a strongly held assessment within the American military community.

The failure to uncover weapon stocks also does not mean that Iraq's hands were clean. Important questions remain. Why did Iraq only grudgingly accede to inspections under the threat of military invasion if it had nothing to hide? And why did it restrict access to its weapons scientists?

[Vym note: It didn't restrict access to its weapons scientists. They were available for interviews, including unattended interviews]

David Kay, a former United Nations weapons inspector who is involved in the American effort to unravel the mystery over Iraq's weapons programs, told Congress on Thursday that American intelligence specialists were making progress. He said that the Iraq Survey Group, which the administration has established to investigate the issue, will not present its findings until it has three types of evidence: multiple Iraqi sources, documents and physical proof.

In the meantime, a plausible theory is that the Iraqi dictator was trying to strike a subtle balance between averting a war and preserving Iraq's military options for the future. Destroying the stocks would deprive the United Nations Security Council of a reason to authorize military action to oust the regime, he calculated. But Mr. Hussein continued to believe that the programs were essential to his strategic ambition to dominate the Persian Gulf and to his efforts to fend off internal and external challenges to his rule.

The Shiites were well aware that Mr. Hussein's forces had gassed the Kurds and had more to fear from a regime armed with weapons of mass destruction than one that no longer possessed such stocks. Or so the theory goes.

It is possible, of course, that Mr. Hussein might have concluded he could accomplish those ends simply by maintaining a sense of ambiguity over his weapons efforts and not continuing the programs themselves. Some notable specialists, however, believe that Iraq was keeping open the option of getting back into the weapons game.

Robert J. Einhorn, a former top State Department official on weapons proliferation, says his hunch was that Mr. Hussein had been trying to preserve a "rapid reconstitution capability."

Amatzia Baram, an Israeli expert on Iraq and Mr. Hussein, has reached a similar conclusion. The Saddam Hussein regime, he said, seems to have ordered the destruction of its weapons stocks while retaining its cadre of nuclear scientists and forbidding them to leave the country.

"Was it only to retain his deterrence or also to keep the option for nuclearization later on?" Mr. Baram asks. "I think both. Saddam without a regional ambition is a reformed man, and I don't think he was reformed."
and on the Bush/Blair spin on the growing fiasco:
Blair and Bush join forces to spin away weapons issue
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington and Raymond Whitaker in London
03 August 2003


The British and US governments are drawing up a controversial new strategy to convince the public that Saddam was developing weapons of mass destruction - an admission that they have so far failed to make a convincing case.

The "big impact" plan is designed to overwhelm and silence critics who have sought to put pressure on Tony Blair and George Bush. At the same time both men are working to lower the burden of proof - from finding weapons to finding evidence that there were programmes to develop them, even if they lay dormant since the 1980s.

In press conferences on either side of the Atlantic on Wednesday, the Prime Minister and the President both conceded that to maintain trust, they would have to prove their pre-war claims on WMD. "In order to placate the critics and cynics about intentions of the United States, we need to produce evidence," Mr Bush said. "And I fully understand that. And I'm confident that our search will yield that which I strongly believe: that Saddam had a weapons programme."

Mr Blair said that "people need to know that what we did in Iraq was right and justified. That's a case we have to not just assert, but prove over time, both in relation to weapons of mass destruction and in relation to the improvement of Iraq. I think a lot of people will make up their minds on the basis of the evidence."

But the Prime Minister gave a clear signal of the strategy by adding: "There has always been something bizarre about the notion that Saddam never had any weapons of mass destruction." His critics say that is beside the point: the question is whether the US and Britain can prove their claims that he still had them in sufficient quantities to pose an imminent threat to the world.

Officials say that WMD information is being collected and collated to create a "big impact". Both Downing Street and the White House are said to have learnt tough lessons from the experience of February's "dodgy dossier" on Iraq and the false claims about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

"Instead of just putting out pieces of a jigsaw and expecting people to see the picture, they are waiting until they have more pieces," said one official involved in the project. "They want to get it right." The authorities had learnt not to put out piecemeal information without proper verification, he added.

A presentation could be made as soon as September, with the aim of providing a boost to Mr Blair ahead of the Labour Party conference at the end of the month, and to Mr Bush as the presidential campaign gathers steam. Officials speak confidently of the hard evidence they claim has been gathered in Iraq since Saddam was ousted three months ago.

The Bush administration has brought in a former UN weapons inspector, David Kay, as civilian chief of the Iraq Survey Group, the military- intelligence unit that is heading the hunt for WMD. Last week, having given evidence to closed-door sessions of the US Senate's armed services and intelligence committees, Mr Kay outlined the strategy. "We do not intend to expose this evidence until we have full confidence that it is solid proof," he said. "The American people should not be surprised by surprises. We are determined to take this apart and every day we're surprised by new advances that we're making."

It is not clear how the evidence would be unveiled, though some have suggested it could be similar in scope to the presentation the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, made to the UN Security Council last February. Parts of that seemingly convincing exercise were later found to have relied on highly questionable evidence, however, and one official predicted the new presentation would be a "sober assessment".

Mr Kay told the committees that progress of the survey group had been slow, despite claims by the administration before the war that it had intelligence that would lead them to weapons sites. Interrogations of the regime's top scientists have not led to dramatic discoveries, although he claimed they were giving valuable information.

"It's going to take time," Mr Kay said after one hearing. "The Iraqis had over two decades to develop these weapons. And hiding them was an essential part of their programme. We're not close to a conclusion yet."

John Rockefeller, the senior Democrat on the intelligence committee, said: "I remain cautious about whether we're going to find actual WMD. Not just a programme, but the very extensive weapons - ready for attack - that we all were told existed."

Scott Ritter, the former chief UN weapons inspector and an outspoken critic of the Bush administration's WMD claims, said Mr Kay had nothing of substance to tell the committees. "His job is not to tell the truth - it's to provide political cover for the President. He was brought back from Iraq not because he has anything relevant to say, but because the President needs to buy time. There is nothing of substance in anything he has said."
and a prediction of what will happen:
Question: There's a sense here in this country, and a feeling around the world, that the U.S. has lost credibility by building the case for Iraq upon sometimes flimsy or, some people have complained, nonexistent evidence. And I'm just wondering, sir, why did you choose to take the world to war in that way.

Bush: ....In order to placate the critics and the cynics about the intentions of the United States, we need to produce evidence. And I fully understand that. And I'm confident that our search will yield that which I strongly believe, that Saddam had a weapons program.

A weapons program? That's not what Bush before the war had said he believed that Saddam possessed. Back then, he referred to "massive" stockpiles of WMDs maintained by Hussein (who could at any moment slip one of his WMDs to his close friends in al Qaeda). A program is much different from an arsenal. A program might include research and development but not production. In fact, that increasingly seems to be what was going on in Iraq. A number of former officials of the Hussein government have claimed since the war that Hussein had ordered the continuation of a covert R&D effort but had not instructed his WMD teams to manufacture actual weapons. The goal apparently was to be ready to roll if UN sanctions were lifted or if Hussein found himself at war with a regional foe, say Iran. A weapons program under Hussein's control would have eben worrisome, but not as immediately troubling as the existence of weapons that could be used or transferred. If the assertions of these Iraqis turn out to be true, that would suggest that the inspections-and-sanction campaign against Iraq had succeeded in constraining and containing Hussein.

In responding to this question, Bush was rewriting history--which he frequently accuses his critics of doing--and lowering the bar. It presumably will be far easier for the WMD hunters in Iraq to uncover evidence of weapons programs than of actual weapons. If they do locate proof of covert R&D projects, Bush, no doubt, will say, Told you so. But no, he did not. He said weapons. He said it over and over. What was the evidence stockpiles existed? Where is the evidence now?
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Post by Axis Kast »

[Vym note: Strawman. I certainly read a lot of critic articles and I never once saw the suggestion that Iraq had done anything like abandoning it's goal to be a regional power]
I believe he’s make an inference (i.e. warning against those who believe Saddam Hussein represented no threat to anybody at all simply because the weapons haven’t been uncovered as of this time).
[Vym note: It didn't restrict access to its weapons scientists. They were available for interviews, including unattended interviews]
And yet, so long as Saddam Hussein remained in open power, those scientists would leave the interviews still under the specter of dictatorship.
It is possible, of course, that Mr. Hussein might have concluded he could accomplish those ends simply by maintaining a sense of ambiguity over his weapons efforts and not continuing the programs themselves. Some notable specialists, however, believe that Iraq was keeping open the option of getting back into the weapons game.

Robert J. Einhorn, a former top State Department official on weapons proliferation, says his hunch was that Mr. Hussein had been trying to preserve a "rapid reconstitution capability."
Assuming that this is the case, then much of the administration’s references to “expanding” weapons programs remains accurate.

In any case, I have difficulty accepting that Hussein pursued unilateral destruction of his stockpiles without leaving either physical evidence or paper trails in their wake. If you’re going to buy the theory that he wanted to preserve face in front of the Arab world, burying the equipment should have been equally as attractive. We know the aircraft caché survived this long without suffering detection – i.e. until men were actually on the ground to provide visual confirmation -, so questions of what else lies under the Iraqi sands are still very pertinent.
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Post by Vympel »

Axis Kast wrote:
Assuming that this is the case, then much of the administration’s references to “expanding” weapons programs remains accurate.
No it doesn't- it says nothing of expansion, only the ability to reconstruct a weapons capability when the desire/need arose.
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Post by Axis Kast »

"Expansion" is subjective. A single telephone conversation related to financial transactions or upcoming tests is enough for Bush to speak of "expansion."
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Post by Vympel »

Axis Kast wrote:"Expansion" is subjective. A single telephone conversation related to financial transactions or upcoming tests is enough for Bush to speak of "expansion."
And you have evidence of these upcoming tests (which would fit under any definition of expansion, subjective or not) or financial transactions? No, of course not. It's always the same; assume any accusation is true, then concoct non-existent scenarios to support it.
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Post by Axis Kast »

And you have evidence of these upcoming tests (which would fit under any definition of expansion, subjective or not) or financial transactions? No, of course not. It's always the same; assume any accusation is true, then concoct non-existent scenarios to support it.
I am telling you that I believe the accusation to be true and find the explanations I have given to be most likely. It is no different than your own faith to the contrary.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Axis Kast wrote:
And you have evidence of these upcoming tests (which would fit under any definition of expansion, subjective or not) or financial transactions? No, of course not. It's always the same; assume any accusation is true, then concoct non-existent scenarios to support it.
I am telling you that I believe the accusation to be true and find the explanations I have given to be most likely. It is no different than your own faith to the contrary.
Except there is no stockpile, no massive program, no factories, no knowledge of the evidence you speak of....
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Post by Coyote »

There is circumstatial evidence; and quite a bit of that in fact, not to mention a known history of Chemical Weapons usage in the region by Saddam Hussein's regime. While the President should have played up the (many) legitimate reasons for the war, by harping on weapons that exist 'right now' he has forced the spotlight onto this one issue.

It still does not invalidate the reasons behind the war and taking out Saddam Hussein.
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Except there is no stockpile, no massive program, no factories, no knowledge of the evidence you speak of....
Has it ever occurred to you that as a result of the United Nations Security Council Resolutions levied against Iraq between 1991 and 2003 – which clearly ordered that all WMD programs be ended at once -, any electronic, spoken, or written reference by any Iraqi official regarding a chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons program would constitute “movement”, “progress”, and “expansion”? If I were President, it’s the argument I’d be making now, too.
There is circumstatial evidence; and quite a bit of that in fact, not to mention a known history of Chemical Weapons usage in the region by Saddam Hussein's regime. While the President should have played up the (many) legitimate reasons for the war, by harping on weapons that exist 'right now' he has forced the spotlight onto this one issue.

It still does not invalidate the reasons behind the war and taking out Saddam Hussein.
Agreed. The President should have focused not on WMD in particular, but on the fact that the UNSC was no longer able to maintain the sanctions – “smart” or otherwise. With that accusation in hand, Bush could then have declared the UNSC incapable of ensuring the national security of the United States. He probably would have been well-received at home, too.
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Post by PrinceofLowLight »

On a related, note, what exactly were those things that Saddam was destroying in the week or two before the war started, trying to appease Bush into not attacking? They were supposedly chem warfare warheads, but they didn´t find any trace of chemical agents. Was he just destroying conventional missiles and assuming we would figure they were chemical?
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Axis Kast wrote: If I were President, it’s the argument I’d be making now, too.
He probably realises he doesn't have any of the fictional evidence that you're citing to support such a claim. Before the war, an argument that lame would be tossed out out of hand. After the war, it's a shoddy after the fact rationalization that will mean political suicide. Think of the headlines: President admits intelligence service is grossly incompetent.
There is circumstatial evidence; and quite a bit of that in fact not to mention a known history of Chemical Weapons usage in the region by Saddam Hussein's regime.
I don't remember any circumstantial evidence beign presented, at any time, that was even remotely sufficient to sustain the accusation. There is also explicit evidence from General Kamel and his military aides (since executed by Saddam upon returning from defection) that all weapons, categorically, were destroyed.

"Kamel was Saddam's son-in-law and had been in overall charge of all programs for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and delivery systems.

That night, in three hours of detailed questioning from Ekeus and two technical experts, Kamel was categorical. The UN inspection teams had done a good job. When Saddam was finally persuaded that failure to dispose of the relevant weapons systems would have very serious consequences, he issued the order and Kamel carried it out. As he told Ekeus that night, "All weapons, biological, chemical, missile, nuclear, were destroyed." (The UNSCOM record of the session can ne viewed at http://www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf). In similar debriefings that August Kamel said the same thing to teams from the CIA and MI6. His military aides provided a wealth of corroborative details. Then, the following year, Kamel was lured back to Iraq and at once executed."
While the President should have played up the (many) legitimate reasons for the war, by harping on weapons that exist 'right now' he has forced the spotlight onto this one issue.
He focused on the weapons because he knew that was what would scare Congress/public into war. Noone's seriously going to get up an argue that it needs to be done to remove a brutal dictator, or remove US troops from Saudi Arabia, or to protect Israel (that last one being a bad joke- Iraq is a threat to Israel as Togo is a threat to Germany).
Agreed. The President should have focused not on WMD in particular, but on the fact that the UNSC was no longer able to maintain the sanctions – “smart” or otherwise. With that accusation in hand, Bush could then have declared the UNSC incapable of ensuring the national security of the United States.
That would require (surprise!) evidence that Iraq was actually threatening the national security of the United States in some way. Hence, the laughably misnamed WMD accusation.
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He probably realises he doesn't have any of the fictional evidence that you're citing to support such a claim. Before the war, an argument that lame would be tossed out out of hand. After the war, it's a shoddy after the fact rationalization that will mean political suicide. Think of the headlines: President admits intelligence service is grossly incompetent.
“Fictional evidence?” You’re going to tell me that Saddam Hussein wasn’t categorically able to circumvent United Nations Security Council sanctions on numerous occasions, sometimes with the effect of acquiring dual-purpose equipment that might have been devoted to weapons research? When nations such as Turkey or Jordan begin demanding upwards of $500 million to stand by resolutions laid down in the interests of their own stability, I begin to doubt the value of the United Nations as an arbiter of regional security (which is, incidentally, an American national security interest).

Incidentally, Bush is making the argument now (that Iraq was making progress with or continuing its weapons programs, if in unspecified half-steps). Hence the qualifier “too” at the end of my original statement. As I said, it wouldn’t take anything more than a single reference to financial transfers or a working discussion between high-ranking officials for Washington to cry, “Foul!” Assuming Iraq was disarmed the first time around and its nuclear infrastructure dismantled, that qualifies as “progress”. Shoddy but true.
I don't remember any circumstantial evidence beign presented, at any time, that was even remotely sufficient to sustain the accusation. There is also explicit evidence from General Kamel and his military aides (since executed by Saddam upon returning from defection) that all weapons, categorically, were destroyed.

"Kamel was Saddam's son-in-law and had been in overall charge of all programs for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and delivery systems.

That night, in three hours of detailed questioning from Ekeus and two technical experts, Kamel was categorical. The UN inspection teams had done a good job. When Saddam was finally persuaded that failure to dispose of the relevant weapons systems would have very serious consequences, he issued the order and Kamel carried it out. As he told Ekeus that night, "All weapons, biological, chemical, missile, nuclear, were destroyed." (The UNSCOM record of the session can ne viewed at http://www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf). In similar debriefings that August Kamel said the same thing to teams from the CIA and MI6. His military aides provided a wealth of corroborative details. Then, the following year, Kamel was lured back to Iraq and at once executed."
Again, why would Hussein destroy massive quantities of WMD without having touched off international notice or concern? Your argument against my comparison of Iraq to South Africa was that satellite technology has changed and that Baghdad was under constant supervision. Why did we not detect such activity? More importantly, why would Hussein be any more obliged to destroy rather than hide his equipment – especially if he won’t provide clear, physical proof in the first place?
He focused on the weapons because he knew that was what would scare Congress/public into war. Noone's seriously going to get up an argue that it needs to be done to remove a brutal dictator, or remove US troops from Saudi Arabia, or to protect Israel (that last one being a bad joke- Iraq is a threat to Israel as Togo is a threat to Germany).
Point. I’d have touched on weapons, though - especially with more attention paid to the ambiguity of Iraq’s statements and the unusual nature of the “unilateral destruction” claim. I would not however have placed all of my eggs into that basket at first. Bush made the mistake of diversifying his accusations too late in the game.
That would require (surprise!) evidence that Iraq was actually threatening the national security of the United States in some way. Hence, the laughably misnamed WMD accusation.
That’s a subjective matter. Many people here would argue that Iraq is a threat to our national security. We’ve been down this road before. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Incidentially, as the argument goes, we don't want Israel to have to respond to any kind of Iraqi provocation. Period. It thus makes sense to reduce stress factors in the region.
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Post by Vympel »

Axis Kast wrote:
“Fictional evidence?”
You said:

any electronic, spoken, or written reference by any Iraqi official regarding a chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons program would constitute “movement”, “progress”, and “expansion”?

That is the evidence I was referring to.
Incidentally, Bush is making the argument now (that Iraq was making progress with or continuing its weapons programs, if in unspecified half-steps). Hence the qualifier “too” at the end of my original statement. As I said, it wouldn’t take anything more than a single reference to financial transfers or a working discussion between high-ranking officials for Washington to cry, “Foul!” Assuming Iraq was disarmed the first time around and its nuclear infrastructure dismantled, that qualifies as “progress”. Shoddy but true.
Shoddy indeed. It's right up there with the sexual relations spat.
Again, why would Hussein destroy massive quantities of WMD without having touched off international notice or concern? Your argument against my comparison of Iraq to South Africa was that satellite technology has changed and that Baghdad was under constant supervision. Why did we not detect such activity?
It was detected- the inspectors were on site and saw it. The problem was the Iraqis did it so that they knew certain types of weapons had indeed been disposed, but not the specific amounts, and so the inspectors chalked em up as unaccounted for.
More importantly, why would Hussein be any more obliged to destroy rather than hide his equipment – especially if he won’t provide clear, physical proof in the first place?
He very well may have hidden them. And after that long a period under scrutiny, they would've been found. You like the point to the 1998-2002 period, and if so, then burden is on you (and the US administration) to present evidence that they constructed any new WMD capability at all during that period, to sustain their charges that Iraq did indeed have weapons. Where are the weaponization facilities, etc?
Point. I’d have touched on weapons, though - especially with more attention paid to the ambiguity of Iraq’s statements and the unusual nature of the “unilateral destruction” claim. I would not however have placed all of my eggs into that basket at first. Bush made the mistake of diversifying his accusations too late in the game.
Hindsight is 20/20- specially in politics. In my opinion I'm sure Bush was quite sure that Iraq had what he claimed they had, but he couldn't prove it. So he took a gamble and turned his suspicions into certainty. That might come back and bite him.

That’s a subjective matter. Many people here would argue that Iraq is a threat to our national security. We’ve been down this road before. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
Yes.
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Post by Axis Kast »

You said:

any electronic, spoken, or written reference by any Iraqi official regarding a chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons program would constitute “movement”, “progress”, and “expansion”?

That is the evidence I was referring to.
His intelligence had to come from somewhere. Assuming he had any information at all, the argument stands.
Shoddy indeed. It's right up there with the sexual relations spat.
And yet true nevertheless.
It was detected- the inspectors were on site and saw it. The problem was the Iraqis did it so that they knew certain types of weapons had indeed been disposed, but not the specific amounts, and so the inspectors chalked em up as unaccounted for.
Then nothing has been confirmed other than that certain weapons were destroyed. We cannot be certain of a full accounting at this point in time.

Incidentally, did the inspectors find the sites of disposal, or were they witness to actual destruction?
He very well may have hidden them. And after that long a period under scrutiny, they would've been found. You like the point to the 1998-2002 period, and if so, then burden is on you (and the US administration) to present evidence that they constructed any new WMD capability at all during that period, to sustain their charges that Iraq did indeed have weapons. Where are the weaponization facilities, etc?
Hussein hasn’t been “that long under scrutiny.” We’re still digging up aircraft buried under our very nose. It’s premature to declare the search a failure.

Even if Iraq hasn’t produced anything since 1998, burying what they did and maintaining the deception would have justify the arguments made by the White House.
Hindsight is 20/20- specially in politics. In my opinion I'm sure Bush was quite sure that Iraq had what he claimed they had, but he couldn't prove it. So he took a gamble and turned his suspicions into certainty. That might come back and bite him.
As Colin Powell said, some bets are worth making.
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Axis Kast wrote:
His intelligence had to come from somewhere. Assuming he had any information at all, the argument stands.
Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.

Then nothing has been confirmed other than that certain weapons were destroyed. We cannot be certain of a full accounting at this point in time.

Incidentally, did the inspectors find the sites of disposal, or were they witness to actual destruction?
The sites of disposal, where they took samples to verify what had been destroyed. If they had been witnesses, then of course they'd know how much was destroyed. It was unilateral, not observed.

Hussein hasn’t been “that long under scrutiny.”
The better part of a decade is that longer under scrutiny.
We’re still digging up aircraft buried under our very nose. It’s premature to declare the search a failure.
It wasn't rocket science to presume that Iraq had hidden some of it's warplanes- they knew what the Iraqis were doing as they were doing it.
Even if Iraq hasn’t produced anything since 1998, burying what they did and maintaining the deception would have justify the arguments made by the White House.
Buying aluminum tubes would hardly justify the claims made the White House, which were specifically aimed to play up the most threatening version of Iraq, contrary to good sense and good intelligence, as well as good advice from their own departments (Departmnet of Energy).
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Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.
Which is why you’re advocating the alternative of my argument: that Bush must have had no intelligence at all. :roll:
The sites of disposal, where they took samples to verify what had been destroyed. If they had been witnesses, then of course they'd know how much was destroyed. It was unilateral, not observed.
For the second time, it’s poor judgement to accept the word of a régime known for deception. The United Nations might have confirmed unilateral disposal of certain forms of CBW in the first place; there’s still no proof the Iraqis accounted for every last drop or microbe under their control. To quote somebody with whom I frequently cross swords, “Assuming is the mother of all fuck-ups.”
The better part of a decade is that longer under scrutiny.
Four years, Vympel. Iraq went four years (between 1998 and 2002) without men on the ground. And as we recently discovered thanks to the little surprise at an airfield just south of Baghdad, the human component on-site is rather important.
It wasn't rocket science to presume that Iraq had hidden some of it's warplanes- they knew what the Iraqis were doing as they were doing it.
Nice try. Knowledge of the tactic and knowledge of specific cachés of prohibited weapons or large-scale military equipment are two very different things. Or are you telling me you’ve got proof that we knew the whereabouts of those thirty or so aircraft beforehand and that our inspections teams didn’t simply “stumble” over them after all? SeaSkimmer made the argument for me: why wasn’t the United Nations – which kept track of Hussein’s delivery systems, prohibited and otherwise – aware of the deception if its investigation was indeed so full-proof and praise-worthy?
Buying aluminum tubes would hardly justify the claims made the White House, which were specifically aimed to play up the most threatening version of Iraq, contrary to good sense and good intelligence, as well as good advice from their own departments (Departmnet of Energy).
Iraq’s purchase of aluminum tubes would indeed justify the argument that Iraq was reconstituting an illegal weapons program. The fact that the United Nations was unable or unwilling to prevent this in a timely and thorough manner would be the kicker: if they couldn’t ensure total disarmament and the integrity of consequences (and they alone proved they couldn’t), Iraq would indeed (and does, according to some) represent a threat to American national security interests.
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Axis Kast wrote: Which is why you’re advocating the alternative of my argument: that Bush must have had no intelligence at all. :roll:
A far more logical position than wishing for it's existnece when it hasn't been presented. :roll:
For the second time, it’s poor judgement to accept the word of a régime known for deception.
Strawman. Who said anything about accepting their word? I never advocated halting inspections, or sanctions.
Four years, Vympel. Iraq went four years (between 1998 and 2002) without men on the ground. And as we recently discovered thanks to the little surprise at an airfield just south of Baghdad, the human component on-site is rather important.
Which brings me right back to "the burden is on you (and the US administration) to present evidence that they constructed any new WMD capability at all during that period, to sustain their charges that Iraq did indeed have weapons. Where are the weaponization facilities, etc?"
Nice try. Knowledge of the tactic and knowledge of specific cachés of prohibited weapons or large-scale military equipment are two very different things. Or are you telling me you’ve got proof that we knew the whereabouts of those thirty or so aircraft beforehand and that our inspections teams didn’t simply “stumble” over them after all? SeaSkimmer made the argument for me: why wasn’t the United Nations – which kept track of Hussein’s delivery systems, prohibited and otherwise – aware of the deception if its investigation was indeed so full-proof and praise-worthy?
What deception? Do you have any idea how long those aircraft were buried? Are you seriously going to pretend they've been buried for 12 years? They were buried either just before or during the war.
Iraq’s purchase of aluminum tubes would indeed justify the argument that Iraq was reconstituting an illegal weapons program.
Not what was said, sorry. He said nuclear weapons.
The fact that the United Nations was unable or unwilling to prevent this in a timely and thorough manner would be the kicker: if they couldn’t ensure total disarmament and the integrity of consequences (and they alone proved they couldn’t), Iraq would indeed (and does, according to some) represent a threat to American national security interests.
Ooh, they were building helicopter rockets, I'm sure the world is quaking in its boots from that one.
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A far more logical position than wishing for it's existence when it hasn't been presented.
Don’t tell me you honestly believe that the President made a case for war without having reviewed any kind of intelligence or analysis whatsoever. That theory’s about as credible from a logical point of view as wearing a tin-foil hat to keep the aliens out.
Strawman. Who said anything about accepting their word? I never advocated halting inspections, or sanctions.
Sanctions aren’t an end in and of themselves. Bush was correct: without régime-change, there could be no full accounting. How long would you have advocated the presence of people such as Hans Blix or their inspections teams? They did, after all, miss those thirty aircraft despite two months on the job (with, according to yourself, more than sufficient satellite and aircraft reconnaissance behind them).
Which brings me right back to "the burden is on you (and the US administration) to present evidence that they constructed any new WMD capability at all during that period, to sustain their charges that Iraq did indeed have weapons. Where are the weaponization facilities, etc?"
We don’t need weaponization facilities in the traditional sense – merely evidence of continued deception in the form of stockpiles or documents. Virtually all of the President’s statements can be justified on those grounds alone. The continuation of deception and discussion would be a continuation – or proof of the desire to continue – with some kind of illegal program.
What deception? Do you have any idea how long those aircraft were buried? Are you seriously going to pretend they've been buried for 12 years? They were buried either just before or during the war.
Explain why Hans Blix missed them then, Vympel.
Not what was said, sorry. He said nuclear weapons.
Even el-Baradei admitted they could be used as crude centrifuges despite the expense. Bush spoke of an ongoing program – which could, of course, indicate discussion as much as construction.
Ooh, they were building helicopter rockets, I'm sure the world is quaking in its boots from that one.
Interesting that you ignore the major point of the discovery: that the aluminum tubes fit the description of items prohibited for import as a result of their dual-purpose nature. Proof that the United Nations embargo was riddled with more holes than Swiss cheese.
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Axis Kast wrote:
Don’t tell me you honestly believe that the President made a case for war without having reviewed any kind of intelligence or analysis whatsoever. That theory’s about as credible from a logical point of view as wearing a tin-foil hat to keep the aliens out.
Ah, faith in the President substituted for actual evidence. Intelligence and analysis was presented, and it was wanting. So you are appealing to better, unknown intelligence which does not exist. Brilliant.
Sanctions aren’t an end in and of themselves. Bush was correct: without régime-change, there could be no full accounting. How long would you have advocated the presence of people such as Hans Blix or their inspections teams? They did, after all, miss those thirty aircraft despite two months on the job (with, according to yourself, more than sufficient satellite and aircraft reconnaissance behind them).
I see you're entering a new bullshit realm, they "missed" aircraft dispersed before/during a war which weren't even illegal. :roll:
We don’t need weaponization facilities in the traditional sense – merely evidence of continued deception in the form of stockpiles or documents. Virtually all of the President’s statements can be justified on those grounds alone. The continuation of deception and discussion would be a continuation – or proof of the desire to continue – with some kind of illegal program.
They didn't say program. They said weapons. They said it over and over and over. Where are they?

Explain why Hans Blix missed them then, Vympel.
Duh, because they a: weren't missing and/or b: weren't illegal, numbnuts.

Perhaps you'd like to point out where Hans Blix said he couldn't find the Iraqi air force? I know asking for things like evidence to back up your assertions is annoying, but them's the breaks.
Even el-Baradei admitted they could be used as crude centrifuges despite the expense.
While concluding that was not their purpose, which the Department of Energy agreed with. Give it up, you lost this one months ago.
Bush spoke of an ongoing program – which could, of course, indicate discussion as much as construction.
Bullshit. Now he speaks of a program, rather than actual weapons, before the war, it was actual weapons.
Interesting that you ignore the major point of the discovery: that the aluminum tubes fit the description of items prohibited for import as a result of their dual-purpose nature. Proof that the United Nations embargo was riddled with more holes than Swiss cheese.
Stop changing the subject. If you want to show that Iraq is threatening the national security of the United States, 80mm helicopter or artillery rockets is not the way to go about making that case. Hence, the weapons claims. The UN embargo, until you find evidence to the contrary, was 100% effective in preventing Iraq from reconstituting any NBC capability. Disarmament.
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Ah, faith in the President substituted for actual evidence. Intelligence and analysis was presented, and it was wanting. So you are appealing to better, unknown intelligence which does not exist. Brilliant.
Faith that there are classified documents not being released to the American public? Absolutely. Always have been, always will be.
I see you're entering a new bullshit realm, they "missed" aircraft dispersed before/during a war which weren't even illegal.
If they were dispersed either immediately prior to or during the war, nobody’s been able to justify their being missed from the air – which still means that your supreme faith in technical means is misplaced.

For the third time, SeaSkimmer made the cogent argument: Hans Blix was responsible for maintaining watch over Iraqi delivery systems. Those included thirty aircraft – some of them ground-attack variants – buried outside an airbase.
They didn't say program. They said weapons. They said it over and over and over. Where are they?
They said program and weapons. And again, I remind you that the search is far from over – especially considering we only just turned up thirty buried airplanes.
Duh, because they a: weren't missing and/or b: weren't illegal, numbnuts.

Perhaps you'd like to point out where Hans Blix said he couldn't find the Iraqi air force? I know asking for things like evidence to back up your assertions is annoying, but them's the breaks.
The question of their legality is moot. Hans Blix was required by the United Nations to keep abreast of the Iraqi air force for purposes of delivery.

The question of their location is still in the air. Either the aircraft were buried between the time Hans Blix left and war began – which puts the credibility of satellite intelligence into question altogether -, or they were buried during the war – which results in the same situation. Then again, since items hidden in 1991 were being turned up in gardens after the Americans arrived, Hans Blix doesn’t seem to have been the logical choice for total, reliable coverage of Iraq outside the major landmarks.
While concluding that was not their purpose, which the Department of Energy agreed with. Give it up, you lost this one months ago.
You’re still dodging the issue. If the United Nations were performing adequately, something like that would never have entered the country regardless.
Bullshit. Now he speaks of a program, rather than actual weapons, before the war, it was actual weapons.
… and the search is still underway.
Stop changing the subject. If you want to show that Iraq is threatening the national security of the United States, 80mm helicopter or artillery rockets is not the way to go about making that case. Hence, the weapons claims. The UN embargo, until you find evidence to the contrary, was 100% effective in preventing Iraq from reconstituting any NBC capability. Disarmament.
The United Nations embargo was not 100% effective in preventing Iraq from reconstituting their NBC capability. While Saddam might not have been able to put his hands on a physical weapon, he was nevertheless able to amass dual-purpose equipment that might have been used to that effect – placing, of course, the whole credibility of the sanctions régime in jeopardy.
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Axis Kast wrote:
Faith that there are classified documents not being released to the American public? Absolutely. Always have been, always will be.
The classic appeal to the unknowable. Pathetic.

If they were dispersed either immediately prior to or during the war, nobody’s been able to justify their being missed from the air – which still means that your supreme faith in technical means is misplaced.
Supreme faith in technical means? I'm sorry? I was always for technical means+men on the ground.
For the third time, SeaSkimmer made the cogent argument: Hans Blix was responsible for maintaining watch over Iraqi delivery systems. Those included thirty aircraft – some of them ground-attack variants – buried outside an airbase.
And for the second time: Perhaps you'd like to point out where Hans Blix said he couldn't find the Iraqi air force? I know asking for things like evidence to back up your assertions is annoying, but them's the breaks.
They said program and weapons. And again, I remind you that the search is far from over – especially considering we only just turned up thirty buried airplanes.
Of course the search isn't over. It'll never actually be declared over by anyone. Of course, the unanimous testimony of the Iraqi scientists who repeat what General Kamel said in 1995 (not deemed fit for the public ear until the story was broken 8 years later) after the war should tell you something. And of course, no Iraqi is going to take part in the little reward by pointing out where they buried their weapons, are they? :roll:
The question of their legality is moot. Hans Blix was required by the United Nations to keep abreast of the Iraqi air force for purposes of delivery.
Which leads me back to the question of where he said he couldn't find it.
The question of their location is still in the air. Either the aircraft were buried between the time Hans Blix left and war began – which puts the credibility of satellite intelligence into question altogether -
Utter bullshit. Satellites have better things to do in wartime than look for buried fighter jets of no military value.
or they were buried during the war – which results in the same situation. Then again, since items hidden in 1991 were being turned up in gardens after the Americans arrived, Hans Blix doesn’t seem to have been the logical choice for total, reliable coverage of Iraq outside the major landmarks.
Ah, that would be the single gas centrifuge incapable of producing any meaningful amount of nuclear material unless you use it for oh .. a few centuries. If you had dug up a few hundred more, you may have a point.
You’re still dodging the issue. If the United Nations were performing adequately, something like that would never have entered the country regardless.
No, you're dodging the issue. You're incapable of sticking to an argument for more than two seconds. You pinned your hopes on American national security. Helicopter rockets does not = threat to American national security. They knew this.

The United Nations embargo was not 100% effective in preventing Iraq from reconstituting their NBC capability.
It certainly looks like that now.
While Saddam might not have been able to put his hands on a physical weapon,
Concession Accepted.
he was nevertheless able to amass dual-purpose equipment that might have been used to that effect – placing, of course, the whole credibility of the sanctions régime in jeopardy.
So since Iraq can use the facilities of any industrialized nation to build BC weapons when sanctions are lifted, this places the credibility of the sanctions regime in jeopardy. Brilliant reasoning you got there Kast.
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In regards to the Iraqi Air Force, try this article: http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/ ... 758600.htm. The Australians, it seems, were finding hidden aircraft as early as 19 April. Considering that the number hovers around “fifty” and that the article states that Brigadier McNarn reported some initial surprise, it would seem that this was an unexpected discovery. That puts the likelihood that Blix paid much attention to the Iraqi air force in greater doubt.
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The classic appeal to the unknowable. Pathetic.
Try appeal to the obvious.
And for the second time: Perhaps you'd like to point out where Hans Blix said he couldn't find the Iraqi air force? I know asking for things like evidence to back up your assertions is annoying, but them's the breaks.
Considering we still don’t know how long the planes sat under the sand, it’s still too early to say whether or not Blix was negligent.
Of course the search isn't over. It'll never actually be declared over by anyone. Of course, the unanimous testimony of the Iraqi scientists who repeat what General Kamel said in 1995 (not deemed fit for the public ear until the story was broken 8 years later) after the war should tell you something. And of course, no Iraqi is going to take part in the little reward by pointing out where they buried their weapons, are they?
I’ve put a “one year” deadline on the search more than once.
Utter bullshit. Satellites have better things to do in wartime than look for buried fighter jets of no military value.
If they were looking at the relevant air base, they should have been able to detect the buried fighters. Incidentally, this brings me back to your own insistence that we’d somehow have found buried WMD thanks to our satellites alone – because Hans Blix sure as hell didn’t tramp all over the country.
Ah, that would be the single gas centrifuge incapable of producing any meaningful amount of nuclear material unless you use it for oh .. a few centuries. If you had dug up a few hundred more, you may have a point.
The fact that he’s got any at all is evidence of a failure to maintain adequate safeguards.
No, you're dodging the issue. You're incapable of sticking to an argument for more than two seconds. You pinned your hopes on American national security. Helicopter rockets does not = threat to American national security. They knew this.
Only in your twisted little universe is it irrelevant whether Iraq can acquire illegal equipment in violation of United Nations Security Council sanctions.

We’ve already touched the national security issue.
Concession Accepted.
What part of: “The fact that Iraq was able to acquire any aluminum rods at all is a serious indictment against the success of sanctions,” do you misunderstand?
So since Iraq can use the facilities of any industrialized nation to build BC weapons when sanctions are lifted, this places the credibility of the sanctions regime in jeopardy. Brilliant reasoning you got there Kast.
The point is that Iraq has apparently been able to acquire numerous items since 1991 that they should not have – and which only inspections with the threat of military action compel them to give up – grudgingly. Not that Hans Blix launched a very thorough investigation in the first place.
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Axis Kast wrote:In regards to the Iraqi Air Force, try this article: http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/ ... 758600.htm. The Australians, it seems, were finding hidden aircraft as early as 19 April. Considering that the number hovers around “fifty” and that the article states that Brigadier McNarn reported some initial surprise, it would seem that this was an unexpected discovery. That puts the likelihood that Blix paid much attention to the Iraqi air force in greater doubt.
Complete red herring to the Blix issue, saying absolutely nothing as to whether the inspectors 'missed' anything.

You should have no problem in digging up a source saying that Blix could not find where some planes of the Iraqi air force were for verification of any delivery system issues.

As to the article, it was obviously written by an ignoramus:
Australian commander Brigadier Maurie McNarn said a French-made Roland anti-aircraft missile system was also found, although it was too early to say when it was acquired and how.
Iraq was known to have Roland in it's arsenal since the 1980s.
The find indicates that Iraq's air force was better equipped than anticipated.
Complete nonsense claim.
The discoveries indicated that Iraq had been rorting the oil-for-food program and using funds to smuggle weapons.
Outright LIE. They have not found a single type of aircraft that Iraq didn't have in 1991.
The 51 fully operational Soviet-made MiGs found included three advanced Foxbat MiG-25s.
It appears they must've entered a 1960s timewarp for this 'advanced' claim to be true.
Brigadier McNarn said the planes had the potential to be a formidable force
By that reasoning, so do T-55s and BTR-60s.
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