Star Trek vs Star Wars : If games were canon

[Connor MacLeod]

I believe Mad had a quote that indicated that twice the number of the rebel fleet at Endor had more firepower than the DS2 superlaser (somethin glike that - the Dodonna quote applied to the Rebel fleet?) - and IIRC from HTTE the Empire's fleet at Endor outgunned that fleet by a factor of 10 as well

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

Dark Forces: You have the ability to make yourself invulnerable to any and all energy attacks (super shield slider in the options menu). It's not a cheat, because it's in the options menu.

And even if Star Trek ships can destroy planets, they can't hurt Star Wars planets. They can shoot at them all they like, and nothing will happen (XWA, the planets are indestructible, after all, they are just sprites).

Of course, you get the same occurrence in ST:Bridge Commander. The planets are objects, certainly, but they appear to be utterly noninteractive. Not to mention that their atmospheres are solid.

And the ships are about 1/15 the size of 'em

[The Nomad]

combined with a battlestation that would make Culture take a step back.

you know you shouldn't be saying that
But that's not the appropriate forum to discuss this, I'm afraid

[SirNitram]

SW would still win (look at my Death Star post). Reactors a metre in diameter can annihilate planets, and propel the debris to _% the speed of light. (Don't remember the value, IIRC Wong did the calcs.

That doesn't necessarily equate a win. Taking the good stuff from both sides puts them at high enough levels I don't think either side could loose per say. Your never going to catch or outrange the ST ships and for their size the ST ships would slaughter SW ships. On the other hand you have insane numbers of SW ships combined with a battlestation that would make Culture take a step back. Then you have the super beings on both sides that are going to make the DS firepower look like a pop-gun.

Where in the ST games do we have entities that can explode suns(Well within the WEG DS's power)?

[Alyeska]

Where in the ST games do we have entities that can explode suns(Well within the WEG DS's power)?

The Organians are in SFC2. They have seemingly limitless capabilities (I am NOT proposing the no limits fallacy) and can prevent war between the Klingons and Federation through total annihilation of their ships at will. Their demonstrated power idicates they are capable of far more then they have shown. In SFC2 they were right pissed at the Galaxy for being at war so they introduced another race to destroy them all out of pure spite.

[SirNitram]

Where in the ST games do we have entities that can explode suns(Well within the WEG DS's power)?

The Organians are in SFC2. They have seemingly limitless capabilities (I am NOT proposing the no limits fallacy) and can prevent war between the Klingons and Federation through total annihilation of their ships at will. Their demonstrated power idicates they are capable of far more then they have shown. In SFC2 they were right pissed at the Galaxy for being at war so they introduced another race to destroy them all out of pure spite.

Well, to avoid accusals of a no-limits fallacy, what are some of the things they did? So far we have 'blows ships up without pausing for breath'.

[Alyeska]

Where in the ST games do we have entities that can explode suns(Well within the WEG DS's power)?

The Organians are in SFC2. They have seemingly limitless capabilities (I am NOT proposing the no limits fallacy) and can prevent war between the Klingons and Federation through total annihilation of their ships at will. Their demonstrated power idicates they are capable of far more then they have shown. In SFC2 they were right pissed at the Galaxy for being at war so they introduced another race to destroy them all out of pure spite.

Well, to avoid accusals of a no-limits fallacy, what are some of the things they did? So far we have 'blows ships up without pausing for breath'.

Best examples of their capability come from the TOS episode Errand of Mercy. Their homeworld was a strategic location that was valuable for either the Federation or the Klingons if either side where to go to war. The Klingons were outright slaughtering the Organians. It was later revealed they were actualy noncorporeal life forms and had been so for millions of years. They were not being killed, they were just humoring the Klingons. Things escalated between the Klingons and Federation until the Organians stepped in and created a forced peace treaty. Part of this treaty stated that both sides must provide basic ship support to the other side with their space installations. The threat of force by the Organians was the threat of destroying all of the ships on either side. SFC2 indicates the Organians can cross the dimensional plain into other universes and open up rifts to allow access between both sides. This is what allowed the Organains to bring the Interstellar Consortium into the ST galaxy to threaten the ST galaxy and force them to unite. The ISC was powerful enough that it could take on all but one nation and thus required that the ST governments work together.

Hope that helps.

[NecronLord]

Well, it's not really proof of overwhelming firepower blowing up Trek ships at will. Hell, corrupt the computers and they explode (federation ships and Romulan IIRC at least - Contagion)

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Dark Forces: You have the ability to make yourself invulnerable to any and all energy attacks (super shield slider in the options menu). It's not a cheat, because it's in the options menu.

And even if Star Trek ships can destroy planets, they can't hurt Star Wars planets. They can shoot at them all they like, and nothing will happen (XWA, the planets are indestructible, after all, they are just sprites).

Of course, you get the same occurrence in ST:Bridge Commander. The planets are objects, certainly, but they appear to be utterly noninteractive. Not to mention that their atmospheres are solid.

Big ships? Small planets? Where's my towel?
And the ships are about 1/15 the size of 'em

[Solid Snake]

When you fire your phasers, millions of gigawatts of particle energy will be released...Sounds Impressive!

[Connor MacLeod]

When you fire your phasers, millions of gigawatts of particle energy will be released...Sounds Impressive!

GW = 1e9 watts

Millions 2e6-1e7

Roughly 1e16 watts of sustained firepower, and this seems to suggest more than one phaser. If this is capital ship firepower, its hardly planet shattering. And I am going ot laugh my ass off if you claim this is a hand phaser.

[The Dark]

Well, according to X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, if a damaged ship jumps to hyperspace, it can pop back to the same system five seconds later with all its damage removed.

Using the pen-and-paper stuff, Jedi can not only deflect energy, they can absorb it to heal wounds. There's one Jedi for whom there is no Light or Dark side, she can unleash any power at will without running any risk of corruption (Vergere, her stats are on the WotC website as an expansion). A single VSD can launch salvos of 20 assault concussion missiles, which is enough to destroy 10 ISDs in that one salvo. The Executor carries 1000 capital-scale weapons systems. 250 of those are the same missile tubes the VSD carries, allowing it to destroy 125 ISDs in a single missile salvo. A dead Sith can transfer their life force to a clone body at interstellar distances.

Actually, the games are quite ridiculous when you look at them. They're fun, but nowhere near the tech level of the movies (for either side).

[RogueIce]

<SNIP> The Organians are in SFC2. <SNIP>

Don't kill me if I'm wrong, please, but aren't the Organians one of those Super Races like The Q and so on? Never saw much of TOS or played SFC2...

At least with the XvT, WEG, and so on, it's using the Empire's tech...horribly mauled (or boosted), but still their tech.

[Darth Fanboy]

A dead Sith can transfer their life force to a clone body at interstellar distances.

This power isn't just from the game though, as it is in Dark EMpire. Much to my dismay of course...

[Solid Snake]

When you fire your phasers, millions of gigawatts of particle energy will be released...Sounds Impressive!

GW = 1e9 watts

Millions 2e6-1e7

Roughly 1e16 watts of sustained firepower, and this seems to suggest more than one phaser. If this is capital ship firepower, its hardly planet shattering. And I am going ot laugh my ass off if you claim this is a hand phaser.

...I was just quoting that's what it says. I didnt say anything else, did I? Keep your finger off the flame trigger, asshole.

[Bartman]

SFC2 indicates the Organians can cross the dimensional plain into other universes and open up rifts to allow access between both sides. This is what allowed the Organains to bring the Interstellar Consortium into the ST galaxy to threaten the ST galaxy and force them to unite. The ISC was powerful enough that it could take on all but one nation and thus required that the ST governments work together.

Well they actually didn't bring the ISC in from anywhere. They were always just to the 'right' of the Gorn. Most of the SFC/SFB races just didn't know or care that they were there. All the Organians did was convince the ISC that everyone else were raving lunatics who were well along the path of mutual annihilation. This didn't take much as the ISC was filled with order and control freaks and everyone else was engaged in the General War. So the ISC launched the War of Pacification.

[JodoForce]

YT30000: stop wanking on the reactor size / power ratio. All the power in the universe doesn't matter if your weapons aren't designed to dish out the power. If your hair dryer is the only thing connected to the power grid, does it start spitting fireballs all of a sudden?

Well, it's not really proof of overwhelming firepower blowing up Trek ships at will. Hell, corrupt the computers and they explode (federation ships and Romulan IIRC at least - Contagion)

Blowing up SFC ships is such proof, apparently--since SFC battlecruisers can blow up planets DS style while other SFC ships can survive multiple hits from them.

OTOH if the Organians can corrupt computer systems at will, they can just short out the cooling system on the DS reactor or something like that.

[YT300000]

YT300000: stop wanking on the reactor size / power ratio. All the power in the universe doesn't matter if your weapons aren't designed to dish out the power. If your hair dryer is the only thing connected to the power grid, does it start spitting fireballs all of a sudden?

No, but you could fit the DS with 100 of those reactors and destroy all the Federation's planets in a day. Since the DS is 50 metres in diametre, the superlaser, which can annihilate planets is 25 metres long. So you could build a bunch of them and stick one on every ship larger than a YT-1300.

SW people are dozens of times stronger than ST people. They can charge around at 20 km/h with half a ton of gear and weapons, have infinite endurance and roll and do jumps and stuff like that. (Dark Forces series). ST people can do the same, but can only carry one weapon at a time (Elite Force).

[Mad]

I believe Mad had a quote that indicated that twice the number of the rebel fleet at Endor had more firepower than the DS2 superlaser (somethin glike that - the Dodonna quote applied to the Rebel fleet?) - and IIRC from HTTE the Empire's fleet at Endor outgunned that fleet by a factor of 10 as well

Sorta...

Next time you see Star Wars Trilogy Arcade in an arcade, pop in some coins and play the Yavin mission. Pay close attention to the mission briefing for the Death Star. As I recall: "The Death Star carries a firepower greater than half the Alliance starfleet."

The point is that they inserted the word "Alliance." That means Dodonna was talking about the Rebellion's starfleet, and not the Imperial starfleet.

If we assume the Alliance starfleet consists of 30 fighters, then a squadron of X-wings can take out a planet. If we assume there's some bigger ships, we still get firepower figures well above traditional Dodonna calcs.

[Lord Pounder]

I believe Mad had a quote that indicated that twice the number of the rebel fleet at Endor had more firepower than the DS2 superlaser (somethin glike that - the Dodonna quote applied to the Rebel fleet?) - and IIRC from HTTE the Empire's fleet at Endor outgunned that fleet by a factor of 10 as well

Sorta...

Next time you see Star Wars Trilogy Arcade in an arcade, pop in some coins and play the Yavin mission. Pay close attention to the mission briefing for the Death Star. As I recall: "The Death Star carries a firepower greater than half the Alliance starfleet."

The point is that they inserted the word "Alliance." That means Dodonna was talking about the Rebellion's starfleet, and not the Imperial starfleet.

If we assume the Alliance starfleet consists of 30 fighters, then a squadron of X-wings can take out a planet. If we assume there's some bigger ships, we still get firepower figures well above traditional Dodonna calcs.

Also take into account that Pre-Yavin all the existing Mon Cal Ships where still in dock being armed.

[JodoForce]

No, but you could fit the DS with 100 of those reactors and destroy all the Federation's planets in a day. Since the DS is 50 metres in diametre, the superlaser, which can annihilate planets is 25 metres long. So you could build a bunch of them and stick one on every ship larger than a YT-1300.

50 metre diameter Death Star?

WTF are you talking about?

[YT300000]

No, but you could fit the DS with 100 of those reactors and destroy all the Federation's planets in a day. Since the DS is 50 metres in diametre, the superlaser, which can annihilate planets is 25 metres long. So you could build a bunch of them and stick one on every ship larger than a YT-1300.

50 metre diameter Death Star?

WTF are you talking about?

Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds+Clone Campaigns+That's no moon cheat= Death Star 50 metres in diameter.

[JodoForce]

*still has no idea what you are talking about*

So it's a cheat huh?

[YT300000]

*still has no idea what you are talking about*

So it's a cheat huh?

Yes, in Galactic Battlegrounds with the expansion. It's a cheat, but it shows how big the Death Star really is. Just scale from their, and SW is incredibly powerful.

Oh, and since ST games are of equal level of canon, I say that BC is the most accurate.

[seanrobertson]

Alright, I'll play along, harhar. Here's my list:

For the so-called "high-end" Trek, I didn't play much of the first two SFC games so I can't comment. I will say that in ST: Bridge Commander, the Federation's most massive starbase had a total shield capacity of about 50 million terajoules, stated in the manual anyway. Someone on that game's production team probably copied that from Graham Kennedy's site.

...That's about it.

"Low-end":

Let's see...in BC again, as someone else pointed out, we have asteroids which prove VERY resilient to phaser fire and photon torpedoes. They're not incredibly big rocks, either, IIRC--probably not over 100m in diameter. I could be wrong here *shrugs*, but I have more...

After you batter down an enemy's shields, following hits do rather unspectacular damage to the hull. 2-3 second phaser blasts usually do little more than make burn marks on the bigger ships. Eventually you'll start to see some holes, and the smaller ships are smashed up okay, but anti-ship actions on TV are generally much more impressive.

Same said for SFC3, wherein a detonating warp core merely fractures a starship into several large pieces. Also, even close proximity to a star very rapidly destroys your ship. Unless a second in the game is supposed to last a day (which is certainly does NOT), the ships on TV are still better.

I also seem to remember that fusion reactors in "Starship Creator" were limited to a few gigawatts apiece, maybe 4-10?

SW isn't without its harsh treatment in unmodded games, though.

In Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II, an X-Wing's cannons don't even score holes in sand. They can, however, quickly destroy an ISD's HTL batteries with concentrated fire, and they can blow the sensor domes off with little effort (which the game mistakenly calls shield generators, naturally...it even had the ventral reactor "bump" as a shield generator!).

Top speed in RSII is probably about 100m/sec.

Now, THIS is understandable...it'd be almost impossible to play this game if the X-Wing was accelerating the way we know it can, and it'd be remarkably stupid to create huge explosions, complete with massive smoking craters, every time you shot at the ground. If that was possible, you could simply laugh at the AT-ATs, AT-STs and other ground targets, and many missions would be VERY boring after awhile.

The aforementioned Trek games really don't have that excuse. I think the starship combat could've been much more potent-looking.

But that's not all.

In SW: Knights of the Old Republic, Darth Malak's ship, called among other things a "Sith Interdictor cruiser," launches an attack on the undefended world of Taris. (You can see this unmistakably in the game's opening cinematics, so no, it's not a spoiler.) Evidently it and other, similar ships conducted the bombardment; and even when in orbit, Malak's second-in-command, Admiral Saul Karath, notes that it'd take "hours" to get the ships ready to attack.

The ensuing bombardment isn't wildly impressive; think VGR's "Dragon's Teeth" but with a higher rate of fire. From orbit, you can easily see individual shots' effects on the ground, but up close, the explosions just blast buildings into pieces.

I'd say the effects could be anywhere from a few dozen GW to maybe a couple hundred GW--that's probably pushing it too far, though, without a more precise frame-by-frame analysis.

But in fairness to Malak's ships, these guns had a VERY high rate of fire, probably close to 100 shots/sec., and the hull of those ships were LITTERED with these guns. I'd say they're probably not anti-ship weapons...we see a few fired at the Ebon Hawk, but the batteries all face downward. They're probably comparable to an ISD's point-defense guns.

A capable Trek ship might still be capable of taking one of these things on, but everything depends on the Sith's bigger guns. Well, that, and we don't know how well these ships are shielded, either.

Shifting gears: I won't let out any serious spoilers, but, just in case:















...it's possible that the most impressive technical achievement in the game, the Star Forge, draws its power from a nearby star. That'd indicate that solar levels of energy are a firm upper-limit even for it, a massive space station.

Ships in the game seem to have hyperdrive speeds like you'd find in ANH, though, traversing the galaxy at break-neck pace (though I freely admit there's no way to verify just HOW fast you're going; the game gives no indication other than the fact that, right after you enter hyperspace, you reach your destination a few moments later).

Of course, no one said that using videogame sources was to be taken very seriously OUTSIDE of this thread...and good old KOTOR does take place some 4,000 years before Palpatine's Empire, anyway