gays in the military

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-08-06 07:07pm

considering the supreme court's happy jaunt into gay rights, think the military will go beyond 'dont ask dont tell'?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-08-06 07:09pm

Nope, not quite ready yet.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-08-06 07:17pm

I almost think of it as a blessing... It keeps the recuiters away. The Army called mid summer... all they needed to hear to leave me alone were those two words...

But I do recognize that others do not share my... lack of enthusiasm, when it comes to military service.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-08-06 08:08pm

The military won't be the one to make that choice. That's up to the civilian leadership.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-08-06 08:20pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:considering the supreme court's happy jaunt into gay rights, think the military will go beyond 'dont ask dont tell'?

Hopefully.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-08-06 08:57pm

I don't think it's a good idea to have troops on the field with romantic attachments, be they two men, two women, or a man and a woman. Sex is often surrounded by a corona of jealousy.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-08-06 08:57pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:considering the supreme court's happy jaunt into gay rights, think the military will go beyond 'dont ask dont tell'?

It is unlikely. Additionally, with the recent events surrounding homosexuals, public support for the homosexual lifestyle appears to be slipping:

"All this in-your-face stuff — every time you pick up a newspaper or turn on the T.V., it's gay, gay, gay all the time. I think the average Joe is saying enough is enough," said Peter Labarbera, senior policy analyst of the Culture and Family Institute (search), which makes no bones about its anti-homosexual agenda.

"That's why God made the remote — if you don't like what's on the television, change the channel," responded David Smith of the Human Rights Campaign (search), a gay-rights advocacy organization.

Rhetoric aside, a recent Gallup Poll (search) suggests that for the first time since the 1980s, support for the gay lifestyle — including the much-discussed idea of same-sex marriages — has begun slipping.

Pollsters acknowledge that recent events have played a role in what might be a "gay backlash."

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-08-06 10:02pm

Thirdfain wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to have troops on the field with romantic attachments, be they two men, two women, or a man and a woman. Sex is often surrounded by a corona of jealousy.

Thats not the issue. Its not permitted to begin with, so forget that.

Striderteen · Post by **Striderteen** » 2003-08-06 10:02pm

Thirdfain wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to have troops on the field with romantic attachments, be they two men, two women, or a man and a woman. Sex is often surrounded by a corona of jealousy.

I think you'd probably have to fully integrate women and allow heterosexual relationships if you wanted to allow open homosexual relationships, or you'd get some backlash against gays for being the only ones getting any sex.

I think both are doable, but only with a serious revamp of the system.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-06 10:11pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:considering the supreme court's happy jaunt into gay rights, think the military will go beyond 'dont ask dont tell'?

I don't think they will. It's too much of hot button issue and there are still huge issues regarding women in the front line military. No matter what should happen it's still not going to happen.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-06 10:29pm

kojikun wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to have troops on the field with romantic attachments, be they two men, two women, or a man and a woman. Sex is often surrounded by a corona of jealousy.
Thats not the issue. Its not permitted to begin with, so forget that.

Kojikun, that statement is either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid. I'm not sure which.

As with any rule there will be those that violate the rules. That's been the case forever. There have been a glut of fraternization cases, even pregnancies resulting from allowing females into front line positions. The problems that have been introduced are not inconsiderable. Adding gays to that mix would make things even more complicated. The problems like homophobia, relationships and all the complications they bring will have to be dealt with.

In short, it does indeed matter.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-08-06 10:35pm

How is it naive or stupid? Men and women serve side by side, I dont see why its any different with gay men.

Crazy Goji · Post by **Crazy Goji** » 2003-08-06 10:41pm

They might be able to. I dunno.

I say let them fight if they want to. I'm not going to.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-06 10:57pm

kojikun wrote:How is it naive or stupid? Men and women serve side by side, I dont see why its any different with gay men.

It is different in some ways. And both have their roadblocks, some very very seriously. Ddismissing the issues related to mixed gender or mixed sexuality armies by saying "it's not permitted" is either naive or stupid. If you can't see the difference between allowed and occurs then you're blind.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-08-06 11:36pm

Stormbringer wrote:It is different in some ways. And both have their roadblocks, some very very seriously. Ddismissing the issues related to mixed gender or mixed sexuality armies by saying "it's not permitted" is either naive or stupid. If you can't see the difference between allowed and occurs then you're blind.

You mean gay guys would be drooling over other guys? Thats just as likely as straight guys drooling over the women. Theres just as much likelihood of relationships due to gays being in the military as there are for women. Its naive to think otherwise. And not only that, but theres no reasonign behind suggesting otherwise.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-08-07 12:11am

kojikun wrote:You mean gay guys would be drooling over other guys? Thats just as likely as straight guys drooling over the women. Theres just as much likelihood of relationships due to gays being in the military as there are for women. Its naive to think otherwise. And not only that, but theres no reasonign behind suggesting otherwise.

That is very much the case. Women are drooled over when they're overseas, especially in a restricted environment where no other women are around. Prostitution on the side is not uncommon during such deployments, and it's very difficult for commanders to detect or prevent.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-08-07 12:29am

jegs2 wrote:That is very much the case. Women are drooled over when they're overseas, especially in a restricted environment where no other women are around. Prostitution on the side is not uncommon during such deployments, and it's very difficult for commanders to detect or prevent.

So then theres no concern, since nothing will change.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-07 01:09am

The only problem with gays would be the nature of the military's macho culture, which tends to inherently favour the chest-beating homophobic types. I hope I don't offend any members of the military by saying that, but that's the impression I get.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-08-07 01:16am

Darth Wong wrote:The only problem with gays would be the nature of the military's macho culture, which tends to inherently favour the chest-beating homophobic types. I hope I don't offend any members of the military by saying that, but that's the impression I get.

It's not necessarily wrong, though you would likely be surprised at the number of homosexuals who serve entire carreers. Those generally keep their private lives private. It would be no more difficult than committing adultury and keeping it secret, which is done all the time...

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-08-07 01:32am

Darth Wong wrote:The only problem with gays would be the nature of the military's macho culture, which tends to inherently favour the chest-beating homophobic types. I hope I don't offend any members of the military by saying that, but that's the impression I get.

You might be surprised how much that macho culture is engaged in by the gay serviceman.

I've heard speculative thought on the origins of armies, and the role that homosexual males could have played. Baseless speculation, but food for thought. I've also heard of a cult of homosexuality that dates back to Spartan traditions being preserved in the military. Not like a dogmatic ritual or anything, but attitudes and behaviors.

Again, just speculation I've heard, but it certainly makes me think.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-08-07 01:41am

Mike, if you saw how macho some gay guys could be you'd feel emasculated.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-07 01:42am

kojikun wrote:Mike, if you saw how macho some gay guys could be you'd feel emasculated.

"Macho" and "masculinity" are two different things. The former is a cover for people who are insecure about the latter.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-08-07 01:48am

Darth Wong wrote:"Macho" and "masculinity" are two different things. The former is a cover for people who are insecure about the latter.

FUQ? You're on a roll tonight, Mike!

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-08-07 02:37am

Enforcer Talen wrote:considering the supreme court's happy jaunt into gay rights, think the military will go beyond 'dont ask dont tell'?

Not by a longshot. At least, not in the next twenty years or so, I think.

~ver

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-08-07 02:38am

Darth Wong wrote:
kojikun wrote:Mike, if you saw how macho some gay guys could be you'd feel emasculated.
"Macho" and "masculinity" are two different things. The former is a cover for people who are insecure about the latter.

Hehe good one, Wong.

koji.. the word WOULD be masculine and not macho. I, myself, have been repeatedly called "really guy for a gay." Though, macho gays are quite the sight.

~ver

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