Jedi versus really skilled human

Darth Mall · Post by **Darth Mall** » 2003-08-06 03:42pm

Obi wan might be a better jedi because he was trained by Qui-gon a un-traditional jedi. that would mean that he would be better that maul and the droids because they were trained/programed against old style jedi. and qui gon probable lost because he was an old man.

also obi wan probably went to the dark side for a bit when his master was killed, as he was a bit more than pissed off..

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-08-06 05:28pm

His Divine Shadow wrote: If it was only their farseeing abilities I don't see why the enemies of the Jedi would be interested in moving on them, as it didn't negate their combat skills.

Because Without the farseeing the Sith could use the advantage of surprise. Which is a definite advantage. If the Jedi couldn't see the attack coming after being able to do so for so long it also adds the important factor of doubt, and eventually a lack of confidence.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-08-06 05:29pm

Darth Mall wrote:Obi wan might be a better jedi because he was trained by Qui-gon a un-traditional jedi. that would mean that he would be better that maul and the droids because they were trained/programed against old style jedi. and qui gon probable lost because he was an old man.

also obi wan probably went to the dark side for a bit when his master was killed, as he was a bit more than pissed off..

This is the most utter bullshit I have heard in some time. But please elaborate, i need a good chuckle.

Darth Mall · Post by **Darth Mall** » 2003-08-06 08:04pm

This is the most utter bullshit I have heard in some time. But please elaborate, i need a good chuckle.

think of it like this, who is better, a SEAL who follows the book that the enemy studys and is totally predictible, or the SEAL who is inventive, says screw the book, makes up new things and reacts with his own initiative.

the old style jedi would be the follow the book SEALs and the jedi like obi wan and the ones don't follow the Jedi code(book) to the dot are like the SEALs who say fuck the book.

also with the battle droids that are programed to fight jedi (it's logical, the Trade Fed. would be expecting to fight the jedi I hope and they can get info from Count Dooku) it is just like the SD-9(?) and the SD-10(?) (not sure of the numbers) from the dark empire comics the higher nubered ones (the battle droids) are programed to utterly destroy the lower number ones (the jedi) becuse they know how they will fight, yet they get destroyed by the shadow droids(the unconventional jedi) because they have no initiative or programming to fight them.

also when obi-wan killed darth maul he was taken up into the dark side of the force and was very pissed off and you see that he is fighting with anger and much much more ferocity

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-06 08:36pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Because Without the farseeing the Sith could use the advantage of surprise. Which is a definite advantage. If the Jedi couldn't see the attack coming after being able to do so for so long it also adds the important factor of doubt, and eventually a lack of confidence.

However, even a lack of long-range precognition would not make them unable to use TK in battle. If Obi-Wan was truly unable to use TK against Jango on the platform at Kamino, then something obviously changed between TPM and AOTC, and Yoda's comment is the obvious indicator of what that was. If Obi-Wan was able to use TK against Jango at the platform and chose not to for some reason, then that's OK too, but one would have to provide a good reason for Obi-Wan not to use those powers.

The idea that Jedi are morally constrained from using the Force against living beings is pure bullshit; they have no problem cutting living beings in half, for fuck's sake. Find a better explanation.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-08-06 10:00pm

He did try to use TK to reacquire his lightsaber when Jango Tied his hands and kicked it away. And it was as you said earlier that these sort of abiltiies probably require some amount of concentration and more time than Obi Wan thought he had, especially against a full armed Bounty hunter like Jango fett who wasn't going to spare Obi Wan a half second to call forth an ability or two.

That and trying to capure Jango alive meant that he wasn't going to use TK and throw him into Kamino's treacherous ocean or spaltter huim from five decks. He couldnt afford to risk it.

I also don't think Obi's powers could have been that depleted, seeing as how deftly he blocked Dooku's force lightning.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-08-06 10:01pm

Darth Wong wrote: The idea that Jedi are morally constrained from using the Force against living beings is pure bullshit; they have no problem cutting living beings in half, for fuck's sake. Find a better explanation.

I never said this...

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-07 09:56am

However, even a lack of long-range precognition would not make them unable to use TK in battle. If Obi-Wan was truly unable to use TK against Jango on the platform at Kamino, then something obviously changed between TPM and AOTC, and Yoda's comment is the obvious indicator of what that was. If Obi-Wan was able to use TK against Jango at the platform and chose not to for some reason, then that's OK too, but one would have to provide a good reason for Obi-Wan not to use those powers.

The problem is the Jedi never have used TK directly against living enemies in battle. I have no idea why, but there's no evidence of it. It would seem that life would be a lot easier if they did use it.

Examples:

Jedi never disarm their opponents with TK. They run up with lightsabers and cut them. Impressive, but hardly neccesary.

Obi-Wan didn't try and push Maul over the edge at any time, although its not clear he had a chance to (Hey, its been a while since I saw TPM).

Yoda didn't use TK against Dooku, but he could use it on inanimate objects. Its possible Dooku had some kind of Force defense against TK, but if so we have no way of knowing.

COme to think of it, the Jedi seem to restrict themselves from using TK against their living opponents, and all force power directly. Perhaps its simply a very harsh restriction to prevent any tempation of using force powers in a very nasty way, and going to the Dark Side?

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-08-07 12:02pm

There goes all those stupid arguments about choking Kenshin to death then

Note: I've not read a thing about the Kenshinverse, but from what I gather from what people wrote I'm already disgusted seeing that so many people think Jedi can win against someone with the abilities attributed to Kenshin.

[pulls thread off track and throws it a hundred miles away with the help of force TK]

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-07 12:13pm

Note: I've not read a thing about the Kenshinverse, but from what I gather from what people wrote I'm already disgusted seeing that so many people think Jedi can win against someone with the abilities attributed to Kenshin.

Well, remembered its as muc style as anything else. Kenshin's universe says that not particularly powerful people can jump really high, move faster than bullets, and you can make swords that can deflect bullets. This is different from Star Wars, where you hae to have some mystic cosmic Force backing you to pull off such stunts, and its made to be realistic-looking, at least. Animation allows you to create different effects than CG, without breaking the audience's suspension of disbelief.

All sorts of anime universes feature people of average abilities making huge leaps, eating absurd quanities of food, taking gigantic mega-nuke blasts and surviving. Its like trying to compare Bugs Bunny to Jackie Chan.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-07 03:43pm

Smiling Bandit wrote: The problem is the Jedi never have used TK directly against living enemies in battle. I have no idea why, but there's no evidence of it. It would seem that life would be a lot easier if they did use it.

Not quite true. In the AOTC novelization both Yoda and Anakin used TK to restrict opponents movements during combat and Yoda was apparently using the Force to enhance his lightsaber strikes (Dooku had to use the Force to help parry Yoda's attacks, or else they would have gotten through.) In the novel Shatterpoint Mace Windu has used TK against living beings (Kar Vastor). Luke used TK against living beings in ROTJ, Dark Empire (Nek Battle dogs, The Emperor, etc.) Corran Horn's grandfather in I, Jedi used TK to kill another Dark Jedi who had fatally wounded him. And these are just examples I can recall directly offhand.

Jedi never disarm their opponents with TK. They run up with lightsabers and cut them. Impressive, but hardly neccesary.

Wrong. Jedi have used TK to snatch blasters from the hands of their opponents (ROTJ, Dark Empire. Again, this is j ust what I can recall off the top of my head.)

Obi-Wan didn't try and push Maul over the edge at any time, although its not clear he had a chance to (Hey, its been a while since I saw TPM).

Maul was a Sith Lord who could stand up to the combined might of Obi-Wan AND Qui-Gon Jinn. Did it ever occur to you that Maul could counter any TK effort Obi-Wan might have tried to employ against him. (Aside from this, how the hell does "not employing the tactic when I think they should" prove they aren't able to?)

Yoda didn't use TK against Dooku, but he could use it on inanimate objects. Its possible Dooku had some kind of Force defense against TK, but if so we have no way of knowing.

Liar. Check the AOTC novelization. Dooku and Yoda both were HEAVILY drawing on the Force in combat. As was Anakin.

And yes Jedi and Sith do have tricks to defend against TK tricks they might use (Jedi can counter Force Chokes- as per Dark Empire -, Shatterpoint indicates that Jedi have methods to deal with TK attacks as well.) - as well as any others (Force lightning, mental attacks, etc.)

You do realize that Jedi and Sith do employ a healthy dose of the Force in combat, right? (AOTC Visual Dictionary.)

COme to think of it, the Jedi seem to restrict themselves from using TK against their living opponents, and all force power directly. Perhaps its simply a very harsh restriction to prevent any tempation of using force powers in a very nasty way, and going to the Dark Side?

I really wish some of you people would do some goddamn RESEARCH before making such dumbass statements. Considering I just tore your argument completely to shreds and all.

The whole "Not killing in Anger" thing is not just restricted to the Force. Remember that Palpatine tried to urge Luke into using his lightsaber to kill first him, then Vader, in order to lure him to the Dark Side. You do realize that the factor that makes any act "evil" is the intent you employ with it - either directly using the Force or not, regardless of the tactic. (it should be noted that the Zahn novels have directly noted that clouding or influencing the minds of individuals is a Dark-Side act, yet that hardly means Jedi don't use it.) Jedi are reluctant killers as well, you might recall, yet th is hardly means they don't kill (nor do they neccesarily have to use TK to kill, either.) In short, Jedi do not "kill" in anger, but generally as a neccessity. The power is not inherently evil, but how it is used (and in what state of mind it is used) can in fact make it evil.

Besides, even if it IS evil, its not like Jedi haven't risked the Dark Side before when there is need (Yoda in fact did this in AOTC, Luke with mind-influencing powers in the Zahn novels, etc) The fact they canonically and officially use the Force in combat (even with precognition, which helps them kill their opponents) demonstrates the fact that the "Not using the Force against living beings" is also a false argument.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-07 04:07pm

JodoForce wrote:There goes all those stupid arguments about choking Kenshin to death then

Note: I've not read a thing about the Kenshinverse, but from what I gather from what people wrote I'm already disgusted seeing that so many people think Jedi can win against someone with the abilities attributed to Kenshin.

And this is why you get reviled, criticized, and insulted. You make such grandiose statements about it, display your blatant bias and dislike for all to see, and back up your statement with not a single shred of evidence, research, or whatnot. And you wonder why some of us have low opinions of people like you.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-07 10:07pm

JodoForce wrote:There goes all those stupid arguments about choking Kenshin to death then

It's "stupid" to say that if they might not always choose to restrain themselves from using a power they are known to have? You're a fucking moron.

"Oh look, Jedi are overconfident, and don't always use their TK powers against ordinary people! I guess that means these powers should be treated as if they don't exist, even though we've seen them in action!"

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-08-07 10:53pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:
Well, remembered its as muc style as anything else. Kenshin's universe says that not particularly powerful people can jump really high, move faster than bullets, and you can make swords that can deflect bullets. This is different from Star Wars, where you hae to have some mystic cosmic Force backing you to pull off such stunts, and its made to be realistic-looking, at least. Animation allows you to create different effects than CG, without breaking the audience's suspension of disbelief.

All sorts of anime universes feature people of average abilities making huge leaps, eating absurd quanities of food, taking gigantic mega-nuke blasts and surviving. Its like trying to compare Bugs Bunny to Jackie Chan.

Which is why such comparisons should not be made, but if somebody raises such a comparison anyway, the Jackie Chan kind of side should fall flat on its face...

@Connor and DW: sure they can force choke and TK their opponents, but it would be out of character for them to do so unless they have foreknowledge that they would be hopelessly outmatched unless they don't do so, choosing to do things the hard way even if it means losing in some cases (see Obi-wan losing to Fett for example)

So if Kenshin and a Jedi each fights in his usual manner, without foreknowledge of his opponent's abilities, the Jedi would lose.

It's not a case of arguing that the Jedi doesn't have the abilities, it's a case of arguing that the Jedi is not much more likely to use those abilities in those specific ways than they are to do so in their own universe (rare to never)

So the Jedi can win in theory, if say you have mind control over him, but not so in practice, with his own mind controlling his actions in his usual manner.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-07 11:03pm

So if we can find an example of an anime character acting stupidly, then we can apply that example as a paradigm for all future conflicts involving that person, or any person of his class? Just trying to make sure you know what you're proposing, since you're generalizing about all Jedi under all conditions in all eras based on Obi-Wan at Kamino.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-07 11:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:So if we can find an example of an anime character acting stupidly, then we can apply that example as a paradigm for all future conflicts involving that person? Just trying to make sure you know what you're proposing.

Heh. That doesn't speak well for the DBZ characters

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-08-07 11:06pm

Darth Mall wrote:

This is the most utter bullshit I have heard in some time. But please elaborate, i need a good chuckle.
think of it like this, who is better, a SEAL who follows the book that the enemy studys and is totally predictible, or the SEAL who is inventive, says screw the book, makes up new things and reacts with his own initiative.

the old style jedi would be the follow the book SEALs and the jedi like obi wan and the ones don't follow the Jedi code(book) to the dot are like the SEALs who say fuck the book.

also with the battle droids that are programed to fight jedi (it's logical, the Trade Fed. would be expecting to fight the jedi I hope and they can get info from Count Dooku) it is just like the SD-9(?) and the SD-10(?) (not sure of the numbers) from the dark empire comics the higher nubered ones (the battle droids) are programed to utterly destroy the lower number ones (the jedi) becuse they know how they will fight, yet they get destroyed by the shadow droids(the unconventional jedi) because they have no initiative or programming to fight them.

also when obi-wan killed darth maul he was taken up into the dark side of the force and was very pissed off and you see that he is fighting with anger and much much more ferocity

Your misguided ideas are exceed only by your ignorance.

bwaHAHAHhaHaH

First off When did Obi ever go to the Dark Side against Maul, never, and he never turned to the Dark side. Also, in a thread pitting Jedi against skille dHumans you bring up Battle Droids. Battle dRoids from Dark EMpire also which were not designed to fight Jedi.

You SEAL Analogy, was not only horribly written, and also incredibly off. sorry, back to the crayon box kiddo.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-08-07 11:39pm

I was only using Obi-wan as an example. Did any Jedi ever force choke people in combat? (that's an honest question

) All I see was Vader choking his own crew...

I take these debates seriously to the extent of seriously considering the evidence I have on hand. I'm afraid I can't go the whole hog and actually take time to *research*

, but I won't pretend to know what I don't know either.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-07 11:45pm

JodoForce wrote:I was only using Obi-wan as an example. Did any Jedi ever force choke people in combat? (that's an honest question ) All I see was Vader choking his own crew...

For the umpteenth fucking time, Luke did it. And all of that "he was teetering on the edge of the Dark Side so it doesn't count" bullshit is just that: bullshit. It has no official support whatsoever, and Luke did not edge toward the Darkside until he faced the destruction of the Rebel Alliance over Endor.

The total number of canon combat incidents involving Jedi against non-Jedi is low enough that one cannot make sweeping generalizations on that sole basis, particularly when an exception already exists even within that small set.

I take these debates seriously to the extent of seriously considering the evidence I have on hand. I'm afraid I can't go the whole hog and actually take time to *research* , but I won't pretend to know what I don't know either.

You have bullshitted many times in the past; don't pretend you do not do so. And you can try to make fun of the fact that most of us aren't blind if you want, but it's not exactly difficult to see Luke Force-choking a pair of Gamorreans and TKing a blaster away from a guard in ROTJ.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-07 11:53pm

To add to what Mike said, if you check the ROTJ novelization AND the script, both indicated Luke was in fact a real Jedi (they called him "Jedi" repeatedly.) On top of that, Chewbacca told Han Luke was a Jedi Knight (and Luke identified himself as such to Jabba.)

Hence, a Jedi can use Force choking.

On top of this, I'd like someone to actually justify to me (with evidence) just how a Jedi killing with a lightsaber is somehow *less* prone to the Dark side than using the Force itself, if intent indeed is not the deciding factor as to whether killing is or isn't a Dark-Side act. (On top of that, explain then how Luke could have been drawn to the Dark side by striking Palpatine OR Vader down by using his Saber, and why Palpatine didn't encourage Luke to Force choke.)

And on top of that:

"The Jedi's right hand waved across between his face and Jango's, and he used a quick Force shove to throw the man back a step until he could straighten and find a defensive posture once more."
AOTC novel, Page 244

Obviously, thats further CANON proof that Jedi can use the Force against organic opponents.

Edit: On further thought, explain why Yoda actually "fired" Dooku's Force lightning attack back at him (so that Dooku had to deflect the returning bolts up and away from himself.), since that also constitutes as an "attack" by the Force.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-08-08 12:07am

Point conceded.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-08-08 12:59am

Before The Storm

pg.233: In the next moment he drew deeply on the Force and reached out to crush the blaster with a thought as powerful as a vice.

Before The Storm

pg.233: Luke's answer was a thought-blow that tore the blaster from the man's hand and smashed it against the wall of the dwelling behind him. It exploded into a shower of sparks and shattered into a dozen fragments.

Dark Apprentice

pg.100: Grasping with invisible hands, he yanked the lightsaber handle out of Gantoris's grip and used his skill to push the button that deactivated the blade.

Darksaber (hardcover)

pg.281: The warrior woman Kirana Ti stood out in the open near the piles of rubble the Jedi trainees had so meticulously removed from the ruins. The TIE fighters saw her and fired. Ignoring her own danger, she gestured with her hand and, using the Force as a sling, she snatched one of the squarish boulder cut by Massassi slaves thousands of years before--and hurled it with all her Jedi strength.

The stone flew through the air and smashed one of the TIE fighter's flat power arrays. It careened to one side, and the pilot could not regin control. The ship exploded in the trees on the far side of the temple..

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-08 01:03am

I remember Darksaber. I find it more impressive that Streen was able to generate enough of a wind current to buffet TIE fighters, and then use his Force skills to slam them together (four TIE fighters couldn't escape his grip or get away before he smashed them together)

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-08-08 05:01am

Darth Mall wrote:think of it like this, who is better, a SEAL who follows the book that the enemy studys and is totally predictible, or the SEAL who is inventive, says screw the book, makes up new things and reacts with his own initiative.

The SEAL who "follows the book" is clearly the better soldier of the two. Infact the other guy is most likely not going to be a SEAL for very long, cuz his gonna get the boot.

Darth Mall · Post by **Darth Mall** » 2003-08-08 05:11am

So you mean to tell me that a seal who does the same old stuff, time and time again, and never takes the initiative is the worst SEAL? If every thing was like that we would still be in the damn stoneage.Might I sugest that you read some real books on SEALs and the SAS like Andy McNab not Clancy crap

Also darth fanboy I was using something called an anology. Its when you compare similar things about stuff (Battle Droids -> Old style jedi /SD-10 -> SD-9 with -> meaning defeats)