Do we NEED genetic engineering?

[Master of Ossus]

Its true tho! If you grew up craving testosterone, but only found testosterone around women and their vaginas, you can bet that youll be craving vagina, because thats where the testosterone was. But then, when you go out into the world and find guys with testosterone, you're going to be a confused little boy.

Do you have any evidence that sexual attraction is based on chemical factors?

Which might explain why some bisexual people have sexual attractions that differ from their emotional ones.

Guess what, there are straight guys who are sexually attracted to women other than the ones they are emotionally connected to. Haven't you ever heard a married guy saying that an actress or a supermodel was hot? This doesn't prove, or even demonstrate, anything.

Then there would be bisexual people that are attracted to both testosterone and estrogen but in varying amounts for each.

Do you have any evidence for this? If this theory of yours is true, it would be impossible for someone to be attracted to someone else while at a party attended by their own sex, because the chemicals released by various people in trace quantities would be diffused throughout the room. Moreover, even completely straight people would find themselves attracted to members of the same sex at such parties. Does this happen?

Then there would be people attracted to neither, or to something entirely different. Who knows.

Look, your hypothetical situation is wearing on me. Chemical factors are not the sole cause of sexual attraction.

But my point was, Prawn, that it has to be chemical in origin, psychological in practice, because Testosterone != Teh Cock.

Why does it have to be chemical in origin?

[Alyrium Denryle]

flies. As I said, Aly, flies do not have conscious knowledge of sex, they just fuck whatever theyre programmed to fuck. if humans are the same, then there needs to be a chemical means of identifying what were supposed fuck. Thats why i said you dont pop out of a vagina longing for dick, you long for inherently male chemicals like testosterone. The fact that youre gay comes about by associating testosterone with dick. If you were surrounded by females but were receiving inherently male chemical signals, you would associate those signals will FEMALES and be straight. Its associative (pablovian) conditioning, but on a more basic and intrinsic level.

A child, until puberty hits doesnt have a longing for sex at all. They dont "crave dick" as you pput it, until they become sexually mature.

Humans are no different biologiclly thn any other animal, we are simply more intelligent. The same rules that apply to an animal apply to us.

We "fuck what we are programmed to fuck" as well, what do you think the flies do? They must determine if their prospective mate is what they are progrmmed to mate with.

You seem to miss the point on this subject, you say that it is a matter of chemical reactions, but what controls which chemical sygnals we will respond to? The answer is genetics.

[Master of Ossus]

I've always wondered...if a person, already alive and, say, twenty-six, got his genes modified to give him the aforementioned blue hair, would he start growing blue hair, or is it too late?

With all of our current or projected methods, GM'ing can only occur prior to birth, and usually well prior, during the fertilization process or immediately afterwards. Remember that cells do not swap DNA while dividing, they only duplicate it. DNA injected into one cell will not be transported throughout the body.

[SirNitram]

Is GM needed? Yes. Absolutely. I would argue that the manipulation of traits is one of the reasons we are here today in the form we are in.

After all, isn't it 'interfering with evolution' to breed a cousin of the wolf into a hunting partner(Or, for those who enjoy it, a tiny little yap machine that resembles a moving rug)? Or taking a bovine and breeding it for constant milk output? Or breeding the plants we grow today? This is all manipulation of genetic traits, our ability to manipulate it on a fine scale has merely improved. Suddenly jumping up and saying 'We're playing God!' is five thousand years too late.

Genetically engineering ourselves? Why not? Granted, I will staunchly opposed to it until we can do so safely and cost effectively, but he who cuts off a tool because it makes him a little squeamish is a fool, when the tool he cuts off can drastically improve quality of life for millions, he is abhorrent to anyone with a sense of morality.

[Rye]

Do you have any evidence that sexual attraction is based on chemical factors?

When you see a hot girl or guy, what happens? Nervousness, sweat, increased heart rate, and so forth. That's all chemistry.

Then there would be bisexual people that are attracted to both testosterone and estrogen but in varying amounts for each.

No, they're attracted to a mixture of things. Looks, phermones predominantly. Pheromones guide more than looks as a matter of fact, they indicate genetic compatibility(or rather, variation) and indicate levels of fitness and such.

Look, your hypothetical situation is wearing on me. Chemical factors are not the sole cause of sexual attraction.

Ah. Now i see what you're saying. Sexual attraction is triggered by a multitude of things. Sexual attraction starts with say a visual stimulus of a prospective mate, obviously fit, then the chemicals released by your brain to tell you they're sexually attractive modify your behaviour enough to make you go up to them, flirt..and whatever.

[SirNitram]

I've always wondered...if a person, already alive and, say, twenty-six, got his genes modified to give him the aforementioned blue hair, would he start growing blue hair, or is it too late?

With all of our current or projected methods, GM'ing can only occur prior to birth, and usually well prior, during the fertilization process or immediately afterwards. Remember that cells do not swap DNA while dividing, they only duplicate it. DNA injected into one cell will not be transported throughout the body.

IIRC, retroviral engineering can be performed after the fact.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Another thing he forgets is that, both males nd females produce the same fucking chemicals, just different quantities of each.

In a female, they g through a testosterone cycle just like we do, t is simply a matter of the relative quantities of each hormone that determine our secondary sex characteristics...

[Rye]

Another thing he forgets is that, both males nd females produce the same fucking chemicals, just different quantities of each.

In a female, they g through a testosterone cycle just like we do, t is simply a matter of the relative quantities of each hormone that determine our secondary sex characteristics...

Men produce oestrogen?

[Master of Ossus]

Another thing he forgets is that, both males nd females produce the same fucking chemicals, just different quantities of each.

In a female, they g through a testosterone cycle just like we do, t is simply a matter of the relative quantities of each hormone that determine our secondary sex characteristics...

Exactly, and the quantities of chemicals produced are [trumpet] controlled by genetics!

[Master of Ossus]

Another thing he forgets is that, both males nd females produce the same fucking chemicals, just different quantities of each.

In a female, they g through a testosterone cycle just like we do, t is simply a matter of the relative quantities of each hormone that determine our secondary sex characteristics...

Men produce oestrogen?

In trace amounts, just as women produce testosterone in trace amounts.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Another thing he forgets is that, both males nd females produce the same fucking chemicals, just different quantities of each.

In a female, they g through a testosterone cycle just like we do, t is simply a matter of the relative quantities of each hormone that determine our secondary sex characteristics...

Men produce oestrogen?

Yes we do. And progesterone as well.

[The Nomad]

I've always wondered...if a person, already alive and, say, twenty-six, got his genes modified to give him the aforementioned blue hair, would he start growing blue hair, or is it too late?

With all of our current or projected methods, GM'ing can only occur prior to birth, and usually well prior, during the fertilization process or immediately afterwards. Remember that cells do not swap DNA while dividing, they only duplicate it. DNA injected into one cell will not be transported throughout the body.

IIRC, retroviral engineering can be performed after the fact.

This retrovirus would have to be a helluva fast in order to prevent immune response from the non-mod part of the body.
Methinks the ability to GM a person after birth won't be available until 22nd-23rd century, at least.

Otherwise I 100% agree with Lord Wong.

[Master of Ossus]

This retrovirus would have to be a helluva fast in order to prevent immune response from the non-mod part of the body.
Methinks the ability to GM a person after birth won't be available until 22nd-23rd century, at least.

Otherwise I 100% agree with Lord Wong.

I don't think we're ever going to be able to modify someone's genetic code in the manner described above (ie. to a fully formed adult).

[kojikun]

Do you have any evidence for this? If this theory of yours is true, it would be impossible for someone to be attracted to someone else while at a party attended by their own sex, because the chemicals released by various people in trace quantities would be diffused throughout the room. Moreover, even completely straight people would find themselves attracted to members of the same sex at such parties. Does this happen?

I mentioned conditioning, I think. Yep. Thats why.

Why does it have to be chemical in origin?

Because if its genetic it needs to be. Theres no way to program in attraction to something like a penis because that requires knowledge of what a penis is, which requires seeing a penis, which thus cannot be genetic.

[kojikun]

A child, until puberty hits doesnt have a longing for sex at all. They dont "crave dick" as you pput it, until they become sexually mature.

I didn't literally mean that you pop out wanting dick. I meant that you pop out with the chemical receptors for testosterone.

Humans are no different biologiclly thn any other animal, we are simply more intelligent. The same rules that apply to an animal apply to us.

Except they don't. Humans have psychology.

We "fuck what we are programmed to fuck" as well, what do you think the flies do? They must determine if their prospective mate is what they are progrmmed to mate with.

Yes, but in flies its far simpler. Its very mechanical. In humans it doesnt work so easilly. I've already explained why.

You seem to miss the point on this subject, you say that it is a matter of chemical reactions, but what controls which chemical sygnals we will respond to? The answer is genetics.

And you seem to miss the point that while it may be chemical, there is no absolute genetic determiner that will make you be GAY, just one that will make you be attracted to a certain chemical which is inherently male or female.

[The Nomad]

This retrovirus would have to be a helluva fast in order to prevent immune response from the non-mod part of the body.
Methinks the ability to GM a person after birth won't be available until 22nd-23rd century, at least.

Otherwise I 100% agree with Lord Wong.

I don't think we're ever going to be able to modify someone's genetic code in the manner described above (ie. to a fully formed adult).

The terminology might be different in English, but in my native language the genetic code is nearly universal and it is what is used to convert three DNA bases into an amino acid during protein synthesis, while the genetic program is what defines the individual genotype. Is it the same in English ?

Otherwise, I was being very optimistic, I admit.

[Master of Ossus]

Why does it have to be chemical in origin?

Because if its genetic it needs to be. Theres no way to program in attraction to something like a penis because that requires knowledge of what a penis is, which requires seeing a penis, which thus cannot be genetic.

Let me get this straight: It's impossible to program someone to be attracted to men or women via genetic coding?

[Master of Ossus]

Humans are no different biologiclly thn any other animal, we are simply more intelligent. The same rules that apply to an animal apply to us.

Except they don't. Humans have psychology.

Really? What's a behavior that is unique among humans?

Human psychology is almost identical to animal psychology, particularly in the great apes, though our sexual practices are more similar to those of birds.

We "fuck what we are programmed to fuck" as well, what do you think the flies do? They must determine if their prospective mate is what they are progrmmed to mate with.

Yes, but in flies its far simpler. Its very mechanical. In humans it doesnt work so easilly. I've already explained why.

And what difference do these alleged complications make to the overall point?

You seem to miss the point on this subject, you say that it is a matter of chemical reactions, but what controls which chemical sygnals we will respond to? The answer is genetics.

And you seem to miss the point that while it may be chemical, there is no absolute genetic determiner that will make you be GAY, just one that will make you be attracted to a certain chemical which is inherently male or female.

WTF? How do you explain the fact that determinants of facial beauty have been shown to be biological, and consistent between both genders as well as both homo and heterosexuals? There's more at work here than pheremones. Your theory is a gross over-simplification that (ironically enough) relies on over-complications of other theories in order to appear rational.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I didn't literally mean that you pop out wanting dick. I meant that you pop out with the chemical receptors for testosterone.

A chemical which we are incapable of detecting. Our sense of smell sucks. As evidence I point out that humans cannot etect if a female is fertile through scent. Otherwise, teens would not get pregnant with the same frequency

"Lets have sex"
*sniff*
"cant you are ovulating over the next few days"

Except they don't. Humans have psychology.

The same psychological principles apply to both animals and humans. We are not special. we are animals just like anything else.

Depends on the school though: Psychoanalysis=quack
Humanistic psychology: Now the physical and psychological pyramid of needs has some merit, but that whole thing with "self actualization" is bullshit

Ossus is right....

[kojikun]

The same psychological principles apply to both animals and humans. We are not special. we are animals just like anything else.

I meant flies don't have psychology. Tho we cleared a good amount of this up through IM. Now for your essay..

[Agent R]

we are interfering with the process of evolution.

By its own nature, evolution is interference. That is, in fact, how evolution works. Factors in an environment will interfere with an organism via obstacles (predators, barriers, etc); those who succumb to the obstacles die off and those who overcome the obstacles ensure the survival of the species. By protecting those whose genetics would not otherwise allow them to survive and by altering our environment, we are becoming agents of our own evolution, directing it for better or worse.

Right now, GE would be best used to uplift the weak instead of making the strong even more powerful. Simply correct the diseases and leave everything else alone. (Yes, even to me that sounds awfully naive, especially when GEers start finding flaws in everything and begin rewriting our genome)

Genetic engineering will eventually be an absolute necessity to allow us to adapt to ever-changing conditions, especially when we start reaching out beyond our frontiers (i.e. space, other planets). Our technology will only carry us so far, we will have to change too, sooner or later.

(on a side note: Am I making any sense? I hate it when I ramble on a topic)

[Alyrium Denryle]

The same psychological principles apply to both animals and humans. We are not special. we are animals just like anything else.

I meant flies don't have psychology. Tho we cleared a good amount of this up through IM. Now for your essay..

Actually they do have psychology. The same biological principles of conditioning and learned behavior, as well as chemical stimulus apply.

[Darth Wong]

we are interfering with the process of evolution.

By its own nature, evolution is interference.

OK, let me rephrase that to be more specific. We are interfering with the process of evolution in such a manner as to make ourselves weaker. We perpetuate bloodlines with serious genetic disorders and heritable diseases because we have the wealth and technology to keep people alive and even prosperous who would otherwise be swiftly killed without those external support structures.

[Darth Wong]

So Mike, what changed your mind?

Or is this just an intellectual excerise?

Why do you believe I changed my mind? I said before that we're still evolving, and we still are. The problem is that the criteria currently being used for human evolution in developed nations will inevitably lead to a gene pool with an increasingly severe incidence of learning disabilities, inherited diseases, etc.

[Rye]

we are interfering with the process of evolution.

By its own nature, evolution is interference.

OK, let me rephrase that to be more specific. We are interfering with the process of evolution in such a manner as to make ourselves weaker. We perpetuate bloodlines with serious genetic disorders and heritable diseases because we have the wealth and technology to keep people alive and even prosperous who would otherwise be swiftly killed without those external support structures.

Can you actually demonstrate that as a species, we've got weaker because we've got more of us surviving?