How can you guys...

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-23 07:49pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:Thanx, Ill remember that. Still, 200 gigatons sounds kind of stupid.

It may sound stupid to you, but it is official. That is the luxury of science fiction: It need not follow established physical law as we know it.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-09-23 07:54pm

Not that 200 gigatons violates any laws in and of itself. If you gots the juice, slag a planet!

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-23 07:56pm

jegs2 wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:Thanx, Ill remember that. Still, 200 gigatons sounds kind of stupid.
It may sound stupid to you, but it is official. That is the luxury of science fiction: It need not follow established physical law as we know it.

Pure unadulterated firepower at it's finest. Munis the DeatStar, of course...

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » 2002-09-23 08:02pm

EmperorMing wrote:
jegs2 wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:Thanx, Ill remember that. Still, 200 gigatons sounds kind of stupid.
It may sound stupid to you, but it is official. That is the luxury of science fiction: It need not follow established physical law as we know it.
Pure unadulterated firepower at it's finest. Munis the DeatStar, of course...

Yeah, but I mean, how the hell do they power those things? Even a few dozen of those 200 gigaton lasers will really strain any power source, including antimatter reactors.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-23 08:04pm

The encyclopedia will indicate Hypermatter reactors, and so far as I know (or read), they have not been defined...

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-09-23 08:04pm

Ah but the big ships in SW use fusion reactors that actually fuse heavy metals (IIRC) and can generate the power equal to a small star.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-23 08:05pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:Yeah, but I mean, how the hell do they power those things? Even a few dozen of those 200 gigaton lasers will really strain any power source, including antimatter reactors.

They use some sort of exotic fusion reaction (NOT nuclear fusion) to power ISDs. Hypermatter for the Death Stars.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-09-23 08:07pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:Thanx, Ill remember that. Still, 200 gigatons sounds kind of stupid.

Only if you say it like this: gigagigaatooooooons

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » 2002-09-23 08:08pm

EmperorMing wrote:The encyclopedia will indicate Hypermatter reactors, and so far as I know (or read), they have not been defined...

Hypermatter? Isn't that some state of matter that you find in a Bose Einstien condensate?

I suppose that if the Federation or the Borg could make a working Omega reactor they could easily power anything they liked. Still, if this thing about super-powerful shields and weapons is true, the Federation could resort to Omega bombs.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-09-23 08:11pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:
EmperorMing wrote:The encyclopedia will indicate Hypermatter reactors, and so far as I know (or read), they have not been defined...
Hypermatter? Isn't that some state of matter that you find in a Bose Einstien condensate?

I suppose that if the Federation or the Borg could make a working Omega reactor they could easily power anything they liked. Still, if this thing about super-powerful shields and weapons is true, the Federation could resort to Omega bombs.

Yeah except that it destroys the entire warp drive thing across the universe, leaving the Treks totally stranded in STL space.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » 2002-09-23 08:14pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:I suppose that if the Federation or the Borg could make a working Omega reactor they could easily power anything they liked. Still, if this thing about super-powerful shields and weapons is true, the Federation could resort to Omega bombs.
Yeah except that it destroys the entire warp drive thing across the universe, leaving the Treks totally stranded in STL space.

But how do we know it won't do the same to Wars hyperdrive?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-23 08:19pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:I suppose that if the Federation or the Borg could make a working Omega reactor they could easily power anything they liked. Still, if this thing about super-powerful shields and weapons is true, the Federation could resort to Omega bombs.
Yeah except that it destroys the entire warp drive thing across the universe, leaving the Treks totally stranded in STL space.
But how do we know it won't do the same to Wars hyperdrive?

Don't know of any similarity between warp space and hyperspace. What I've been able to tell is that warp drives apparently damage the fabric of space-time. But hyperdrives have been used for 50,000 years, with no apparent damage to space-time -- just really fast Point A to Point B time.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-23 08:21pm

I may be wrong on the 50,000 years: Might be only 30,000 years since the advent of hyperdrive. I'm sure somone here will correct me....

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-09-23 08:34pm

Hypermatter? Isn't that some state of matter that you find in a Bose Einstien condensate?

Odd.....

But how do we know it won't do the same to Wars hyperdrive?

The Omega doohicky seems to warp up space-time so Federation ships can't make a warp field. The only thing that restricts Wars hyperdrive is gravity wells. Without further info, debating Omega bombs results in a stalemate, and I doubt the Federation would like to permenantly cripple warp engines in large sections of their space, most likely around populated planets.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-23 08:35pm

My understanding was a spacefaring civilisation at least 25000 years old.

Forgot which novel it was in.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-09-23 08:47pm

The 25,000 year estimate is also mentioned in other official sources (Essential Guides, and the like).

Now, the most illogic Trekkie myths, as mentioned in the beginning, have been long refuted, so they've become more logic. Many have accepted that the Empire would win over time, others just dropped out of the debates, and others are jsut repeating the same old arguments, sometimes with a new twist.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-09-23 08:59pm

dude, I've seen 9 yr olds debate better. this guy is just trying to provoke. why waste time?

c'mon. he says the empire is 2 systems. with the movies alone, there are dozens more just visited. . . let alone the sheer industry needed for the death star.

this guy isn't for real.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » 2002-09-23 11:12pm

[Q]I may be wrong on the 50,000 years: Might be only 30,000 years since the advent of hyperdrive. I'm sure somone here will correct me....[/Q]

It fell into the hands of humans and became a widespread tech some 20-30,000 years prior to the movies

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-09-23 11:25pm

Haahaahaa!

This got posted Earlier today and it already got 140 replies!? Sweet, sweet hunger for blood!

Dude, whassup? A tiny clunky run-of-the-mill SHUTTLE (ie, the Shuttle Tydirium, RotJ) punches lightspeed and clears most of the GALAXY in a few hours! Ya got that? It's a SHUTTLE! Teeny-tiny! The utility truck of the universe! If that's what the "Nissan Pathfinder" of the SW universe can do without even trying, imagine the full capability of a true vessel, such as an Imperial Star Destroyer! Just... just... wake up!

I mean, in AotC, we see the older model Naboo Starfighters emerge from hyperspace with the Senatorial Cruiser-- those guys spent HOW LONG crossing the galaxy in those little ships? That tiny fighter is obviously kitted out for more than enough life support and fuel to make a jump from Naboo to Coruscant...

Okay, this has gotta be a funny.

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-09-23 11:46pm

Captain Zod wrote:
Solo galaxy quote is hyperbole. And the Empire is only 1 system. Maybe 2.

Waitaminit...

So you're telling me that Naboo, Nar Shaddaa, Alderan, Tatooine, Yavin, Dantooine, Coruscant, Anoat, Bespin, Gromas, Hoth, Ord Mandel, Kashyyk, and Corellia are all orbiting one star?

I was going to be the nice, easy-to-get-along-with friendly Warsie guy, but you're on goddamn crack. Begone with this silliness, I say, "out, out damned spot... !"

(grumble, mumble... fer gawd's sake, they wear pyjamas as duty uniforms over there, what can I expect...?)

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-24 12:02am

Coyote wrote:Haahaahaa!

This got posted Earlier today and it already got 140 replies!? Sweet, sweet hunger for blood!

Dude, whassup? A tiny clunky run-of-the-mill SHUTTLE (ie, the Shuttle Tydirium, RotJ) punches lightspeed and clears most of the GALAXY in a few hours! Ya got that? It's a SHUTTLE! Teeny-tiny! The utility truck of the universe! If that's what the "Nissan Pathfinder" of the SW universe can do without even trying, imagine the full capability of a true vessel, such as an Imperial Star Destroyer! Just... just... wake up!

I mean, in AotC, we see the older model Naboo Starfighters emerge from hyperspace with the Senatorial Cruiser-- those guys spent HOW LONG crossing the galaxy in those little ships? That tiny fighter is obviously kitted out for more than enough life support and fuel to make a jump from Naboo to Coruscant...

Okay, this has gotta be a funny.

Actually, from the ICS book, the Naboo starfighters have to plug into the diplomatic ship for the long range jumps.

Besides, it no big thang, he is already pointed in the direction of the reference material at this time.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-24 12:12am

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Outrangeous Okana argument, lets break this down:
1) For the record Riker says "THAT won't penetrate..." which means he is referencing JUST THAT PARTICULAR VESSEL.
How do you know?

Because I can look at the original screenplay for intent of the quote and I can look at other instances.

2) From "Q Who"
WORF: A type of laser beam is slicing into the Saucer Section.
The Borg adapt. Do you have proff that they don't?

The Borg fired a LASER BEAM and it SLICED INTO THE HULL. That means that navigational deflectors cannot stop all laser beams.

3) SW weapons are NOT lasers. Oservation of their observed behavior (traveling at less than 'c', visible from angles other than head-on, etc)
Look at the word. Turbo-Laser. TURBO comes from turbine. LASER is... surprise, a LASER! So they're lasers that have something to do with turbines.

Let me repeat something to you: OBSERVABLE BEHAVIOR. L.A.S.E.R.s are not visible form any angle other than head-on. We see SW weapons at angles other than head-on therfore Sw weapons are not L.A.S.E.R.s.

4) AOTC:ICS specifically states that there is both an invisible (EM Band but not neccesarily laser) component and visible component. In other words it ain't a laser, its a hybrid weapon.
Oh, finally you make some sense. BUt you're still wrong; the part that does the damage is the laser, and Federation shields stop lasers. What the hell does a tracer matter?

Read what I said again "EM NOT NECCESSARILY LASER." Do you understand that there are EM bands other than the visible? In fact since lasers by definition are visible "Light Amplificaiton etc) the fact that it is an "invisible" component means that it is NOT a laser.

4) The SW:VD states that blasters (and turbolasers) use highly charged plasmas activated by lasers thus the impact energy is carried, to a great degree, by the KE/Thermal energy of the plasma.
It does not SPECIFICALLY say that turbolasers work on the same methods as blasters.

WTF are you talking about? Yes it does.

In other words ST vessels are susceptible to laser weaponry and even if they weren't SW beam weaponry is not laser-only.
A plasma tracer is supposed to go through Trek shields? Come on, stop pulling my leg.

No where is the energy division stated. Do you know what a tracer round is for an M-16? that's right a round with virtually the same penetration characteritics with some extra glowy stuff. Tracers can kill if they have energy, analysis of canon events proves that the tracer usually carries the lion's share of energy.

1) Solo stated that the possible was impossible in the very same sentence so obviously he is WRONG.
He's a smuggler. He should know about this sort of thing.

Doesn't matter if he shoudl, he didn't. He stated that you couldn' blow up Alderaan but they DID so he was WRONG. Is that so hard to understand?

2) WEG material pegs the Imeprial fleet at well into the millions of ships
Who's Weg?

West End Games

3) Direct quote from Paelleon places the number of ISDs in service at 25,000
I didn't hear that in the movie.

No you didn't, doesn't change its validity.

Pulling numbers out of your ass eh? Fine lets assume that Solo meant they only have 500 ships. The Death Star, according to Dodonna has greater firepower than half a starfleet. Now that means that 250 vessels = DS firepower. Minimum power for the DS is 1.1e33 W which, divided amongst 250 ships means each ship in the Empire has an average firepower of 4.6e30 W, thanks for giing me such generous numbers.
How did you get the minimum power for the Death Star?

1e38J minimum energy neccesary to destroy Alderaan. The DS1 could fire a planet killer once per day. minimum power neccessary to just recharge the main weapon is 1.1e33 W.

When each of those ships would succumb to the medium guns on an ISD I don't care how many vessels you have. I also don't care because ST doesn't have enough ships to throw at even a Single ISD and make it blink.
Look at how many registry numbers there are! USS Voyager is NCC-74656. USS Reliant, in 2280, was NCC-1864. But we still see a lot of Mirandas around, so that's over 70,000 ships that could still be in service! Sure, some were probably destroyed, but it's stupid to assume that the Federation has anything less than 40,000 ships.

Look at the hull numbers of US ships. There on carrier CVN-77 where the hell are the other 76? Oh wait that's right naval hull designation practices are not always continuous and ship's get RETIRED.

Also consider that if those 600 ships were the scrapped together remnant of other fleets that means that they were decimated by the war.

Also in BOBW they could only muster 40 ships to defend Earth and Shelby states it will take at least a year to recover, eat it.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-24 12:19am

Captain Zod wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:

Then how did Han Solo go across the galaxy? Or how does ANYONE go from one end of the galaxy spanding empire to the other?

Solo galaxy quote is hyperbole. And the Empire is only 1 system. Maybe 2.

Just so I don't forget, and in case no one else mentioned it already:

Star Wars by George Lucas (softcover trilogy edition pg 95)
"This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the MILLION SYSTEMS [emphasis mine] of the galactic Empire together once and for all."

If you want to lie at least try to be closer to the truth than 6 orders of magnitude off.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-24 12:22am

PROMETHEUS wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Then how did Han Solo go across the galaxy? Or how does ANYONE go from one end of the galaxy spanding empire to the other?
Maybe they're in a dwarf galaxy?

Star Wars by George Lucas (softcover trilogy edition pg 106)
"Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest sized galaxy."

There's also Lando's "galaxy is 120,000 LY across" quote from Shield of Lies but I can't find the page ref.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-24 12:28am

EmperorMing wrote:My understanding was a spacefaring civilisation at least 25000 years old.

Forgot which novel it was in.

Amongst other things the WOTC rulebooks state that hyperdrive has been around at elast 25000 years in gneral use and that the Duros were probably the first to discover it.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

How can you guys...

Re: How can you guys...