Ishmael

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-08-08 12:30pm

Anyone ever read the book Ismael, by Daniel Quinn?

I just finished reading it, it was required reading for my first year at Drew U.

The premise is simple- a man, dissaffected by his life, sees a personal add in the newspaper:

Teacher looking for Student.
Must have an earnest desire to save the world.

He follows up on this add, and finds himself under the tutelage of a giant gorilla- that's right, a sentient, telepathic gorilla. The Gorilla teaches him that mankind is divided into to groups, Takers and Leavers. Takers are the agricultural, industrial civilization, and leavers are the tribal hunter/gatherers.

The Takers, according to this ape (named Ishmael,) violate a fundamental rule of life. Instead of accepting the environment around them, Takers change it to suit them. Takers do not live in a world of eat-or-be-eaten, and disobey natural law. They take from the environment.

Meanwhile, leavers live under natural law, as all other lifeforms do.

Ishmael says that the Taker lifestyle is garaunteed to fail, and that it will, by definition, eventually destroy everything that does not benefit humans.

He says that the path we takers are going down leads to disaster, and must be stopped. He says that if we lived as Leavers, we would be happier and would not harm the world around us. The book essentially says that all mankind has worked for, all the skyscrapers, and supercolliders, and computers, and aircraft, and starships, are all terrible things, the side effect of a destructive lifestyle which must stop.

What do you people think? Is Ishmael right? should we put down the torch, and live in harmony with our world, and forget the knowledge we have?

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-08-08 12:44pm

ORANGE ALERT ORANGE ALERT!

Run to your nearest book store, and pick up a copy of Atlas Shrugged, then read immeadietly. You have obviously been affected to even thing that this talking ape could be right. After above instructions have been followed you should be fine, but report back a week after finishing Atlas Shrugged to have a check up.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-08 12:56pm

Yep, I wanna leave my modern medication, indoor plumbing, central heat and air and go live in a fucking forest.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-08-08 01:24pm

Actually, I have just finished going through J. Pournelle's "A Step Farther Out," which did a good job of clensing my palate. Nothing like a little taste of how science can improve the lives of billions to make that nasty little ape voice shut up.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-08-08 01:33pm

Thirdfain wrote:Actually, I have just finished going through J. Pournelle's "A Step Farther Out," which did a good job of clensing my palate. Nothing like a little taste of how science can improve the lives of billions to make that nasty little ape voice shut up.

If the voice is still there you should keep on going, it deserves to die!

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-08 04:30pm

Harmony?

There is no harmony in nature, more the opposite.

And what means natural?

If nature is everything (in the sense of cosmos, the universe), than everything possible is also natural.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-08-08 04:44pm

FTeik wrote:Harmony?

There is no harmony in nature, more the opposite.

And what means natural?

If nature is everything (in the sense of cosmos, the universe), than everything possible is also natural.

I like your point.
When people cry about the destruction of nature, what's doing the destruction?
An animal that has evolved naturally just like all others. Elephants destroy their enviroments, too, you know.

I do NOT favor that we ignore this problem just because we're a force of nature, however. That's the nice thing about being human, we can recognise our mistakes, and with a little hope, correct them.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-08-08 05:24pm

sounds like typical Luddite BS, if you eally think that, go be amish

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-08-08 06:23pm

NapoleonGH wrote:sounds like typical Luddite BS, if you eally think that, go be amish

Is that directed at me, or the OP?

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-08-08 07:56pm

The words "Brutish and short" leap to mind on the 'leavers' lifestyle.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2003-08-08 08:09pm

It sounds crazy, but I agree with the telepathic ape. I believe it would be an improvement for man to turn around.

However, as a born-and-raised "taker", I could not survive without the luxuries that Stravo mentioned, therefore it is not a viable option to me. I, and generations of my family before me, were born and raised to live in this society and I can't see that changing any time soon wether I want it to or not.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-08-08 08:31pm

right, you go and hide out in the woods and wait for your coyotes. Ill be here and emptying your credit account.

I think we should be doing more to protect our environment. but I dont think we should abandon the fruits of intelligence which made our lives so much better.

better, of course, being well fed, warm, with shelter and access to pretty chicks. hehe.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-08-08 08:52pm

I'd like to think of humankind as the sexual organs of terrestrial life. We, of all of gaia's creations, are the only things with any possibility of spreading the seed of terrestrial life beyond this single, ephemeral biosphere.

If we decide to throw down our tools and live as leavers, then terrestrial life will go on as it has for millions of years, and eventually die out along with our sun.

If we take our abilities, and throw ourself to the stars, who knows how far the fruits of Earth will spread?

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-08-08 11:59pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
NapoleonGH wrote:sounds like typical Luddite BS, if you eally think that, go be amish
Is that directed at me, or the OP?

anyone who agrees with the book i think should go and join the amish because clearly they are luddites

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-09 04:09am

Thirdfain wrote:I'd like to think of humankind as the sexual organs of terrestrial life. We, of all of gaia's creations, are the only things with any possibility of spreading the seed of terrestrial life beyond this single, ephemeral biosphere.

If we decide to throw down our tools and live as leavers, then terrestrial life will go on as it has for millions of years, and eventually die out along with our sun.

If we take our abilities, and throw ourself to the stars, who knows how far the fruits of Earth will spread?

We would take the roots of our problems with us.