Master of Orion universe- how tough?

[AdmiralKanos]

Given an equal number of planets, who could beat a top-level MOO2 species?

At first glance, they seem terrifyingly powerful. A top-tech MOO2 species can easily build dozens of medium-sized ships with planet-destroying stellar converters, not to mention a phasing cloak and a time dilator which allows them to decloak, fire the stellar converter, and then recloak before they can be fired upon. Well-designed starships of a top-level MOO2 species seem nigh-invincible, and their defense systems are incomprehensibly strong, since the largest, most well-equipped vessels can survive one and in some cases, two hits from a stellar converter (although it should be noted that we don't know whether something like a SW Death Star could survive a hit from its own weapon, and MOO2 Doomstars are basically the same as SW Death Stars in size).

However, a game turn is a year, so it takes several years to cross their own territory even at maximum tech levels. This puts their propulsion tech in open space well below that of many sci-fi universes. They have stargate technology so they could put stargates in every system, which would allow them unlimited force concentration at any point in their empire, but they still need early warning of an attack: they cannot deploy ships to a beleaguered system fast enough to stop an attack which comes without warning, and this is a defensive workaround with no offensive application.

Moreover, even the largest MOO2 species are relatively limited in scope, with only a few dozen planets under their control and perhaps 100 ships. Thoughts?

[His Divine Shadow]

Given an equal number of planets, who could beat a top-level MOO2 species?

I dunno that, but thats not why I am here(go figure).

However, a game turn is a year, so it takes several years to cross their own territory even at maximum tech levels.

Really? I remember hearing that a game turn was a month and not a year, there are several turns after all before the year date change after all.
And Stargates and jumpgates can cut down the transmission speed also, in between their own systems only though.

Thoughts?

The "peanut gallery" at SB would scream, kick and cry about how superbly and horribly the MOO2 Empire smashes the horrible SW Empire and that loathefull ICS which demolished their attempts to bring SW down and thier own universes up so they could create an artificial "equalness" and not have to suffer from their chronic sci-fi penis envy.

Ooh I'm ranting, oh well, who cares?

[Thunderfire]

Hmm a well designed M002 race is able to build 0,5-2 doomstars
per turn on good planets. Fleets can get pretty big and mind control
is pretty nasty too. Stellar Converters are only usefull to destroy planets
the don't do that much damage to ships compared to weapons like
maulers/plasma cannons. I think M002 totally outclasses most
ST races and they have a firepower advantage over SW but they
lack the excellent shields of SW.

[AdmiralKanos]

Hmm a well designed M002 race is able to build 0,5-2 doomstars per turn on good planets. Fleets can get pretty big and mind control is pretty nasty too. Stellar Converters are only usefull to destroy planets the don't do that much damage to ships compared to weapons like
maulers/plasma cannons. I think M002 totally outclasses most ST races and they have a firepower advantage over SW but they lack the excellent shields of SW.

Like most sci-fi comparisons, they have "holes" in their tech when compared to other series. They have ridiculously powerful planet-killing weapons that can be miniaturized onto a titan-class ship, but they seem to lack any kind of particle shield; even the strongest planetary shield can't stop orbital bombardment when you use physical bombs instead of rayguns.

[phongn]

Hmm a well designed M002 race is able to build 0,5-2 doomstars per turn on good planets. Fleets can get pretty big and mind control is pretty nasty too. Stellar Converters are only usefull to destroy planets the don't do that much damage to ships compared to weapons like
maulers/plasma cannons. I think M002 totally outclasses most ST races and they have a firepower advantage over SW but they lack the excellent shields of SW.

Like most sci-fi comparisons, they have "holes" in their tech when compared to other series. They have ridiculously powerful planet-killing weapons that can be miniaturized onto a titan-class ship, but they seem to lack any kind of particle shield; even the strongest planetary shield can't stop orbital bombardment when you use physical bombs instead of rayguns.

I think planatary shields reduce, but do not stop damage from bombs and missiles, though it's been awhile since I've played the game.

And IIRC, game turns are one month (1/10 of a year).

[HRogge]

Given an equal number of planets, who could beat a top-level MOO2 species?

Very intersting question, let's see.

At first glance, they seem terrifyingly powerful. A top-tech MOO2 species can easily build dozens of medium-sized ships with planet-destroying stellar converters, not to mention a phasing cloak and a time dilator which allows them to decloak, fire the stellar converter, and then recloak before they can be fired upon.

Of course a continous beam weapon would break the old phasing cloak/time warp trick... but you are right, they have a really powerful offense.

Well-designed starships of a top-level MOO2 species seem nigh-invincible, and their defense systems are incomprehensibly strong, since the largest, most well-equipped vessels can survive one and in some cases, two hits from a stellar converter (although it should be noted that we don't know whether something like a SW Death Star could survive a hit from its own weapon, and MOO2 Doomstars are basically the same as SW Death Stars in size).

Stellar converter shot during battle are not as powerful as the planet killing blast. You can fire shots at the planet and it does not explode. Sounds like a anti-ship blast similar to the DS2 one.

However, a game turn is a year, so it takes several years to cross their own territory even at maximum tech levels. This puts their propulsion tech in open space well below that of many sci-fi universes. They have stargate technology so they could put stargates in every system, which would allow them unlimited force concentration at any point in their empire, but they still need early warning of an attack: they cannot deploy ships to a beleaguered system fast enough to stop an attack which comes without warning, and this is a defensive workaround with no offensive application.

Only with an opponent with stealth fields. Without stealth fields you have several turns warning and star gates are said to provide instant teleportation between planets.

Moreover, even the largest MOO2 species are relatively limited in scope, with only a few dozen planets under their control and perhaps 100 ships. Thoughts?

I think MoO2 has a number of nice tricks, but they lack the power to crush the SW Empire. Their stellar converter can only kill one planet per year, and their most powerful weapons are only ~50 times as powerful as their nuclear fission missile !

The Empire would crush them... not without losses, but I think they would do it. Especially if they begin to kill the jump gate system...

[Slartibartfast]

Master of Orion is a mish-mash of observed tech from all known sci-fi shows/movies, so I doubt we can objectively compare it to actual SF universes. The only thing original about it are the races (sort-of) but the whole tech tree is mixed techs from all shows.

(they had to come up with a tech progression for engines and weapons, so they simply put them all in a tech tree. must give them some credit tho: they place Hyperspace at the top of the propulsor food chain)

If they had created MOO2 just now, they would have put there even SlipStream engines.

[Sothis]

Intriguing.

The main problem is in the fleet size. I don't recall building much more than 150 or so ships, and not all of them would carry Stellar Converters (I'd have one class of Titan with the Planet-killer, and another class decked out with a great more conventional weaponry).

If you could colonize the millions of planets that other big sci-fi empires have (obviously not feasible in a game, but a drool-worthy prospect ), then the highest MOO2 empires would be right up there with the best of them. Unfortunately, fleet numbers are limited, so the MOO2 races won't cope.

Of course, what will MOO3 bring? individual fleets of 10'000 ships? a thousand ships per planet? A great many more planets?

Let us hope.

[Darth Wong]

Master of Orion is a mish-mash of observed tech from all known sci-fi shows/movies, so I doubt we can objectively compare it to actual SF universes. The only thing original about it are the races (sort-of) but the whole tech tree is mixed techs from all shows.

How dare you criticize MOO2? My Doomstar with 2 stellar converters and an assload of plasma cannons will rape you!!!!!!

[phongn]

Master of Orion is a mish-mash of observed tech from all known sci-fi shows/movies, so I doubt we can objectively compare it to actual SF universes. The only thing original about it are the races (sort-of) but the whole tech tree is mixed techs from all shows.

How dare you criticize MOO2? My Doomstar with 2 stellar converters and an assload of plasma cannons will rape you!!!!!!

Mike! Stellar Converters are a waste of space - get Autofiring Shield-Piercing Heavy Phasors with a bunch of specials and you'll waste any ship foolish enough to get in front of you.

[Steve]

Isn't MOO2 the engine that Microprose used for Star Trek: Birth of the Federation?

[Connor MacLeod]

Master of Orion is a mish-mash of observed tech from all known sci-fi shows/movies, so I doubt we can objectively compare it to actual SF universes. The only thing original about it are the races (sort-of) but the whole tech tree is mixed techs from all shows.

How dare you criticize MOO2? My Doomstar with 2 stellar converters and an assload of plasma cannons will rape you!!!!!!

Mike! Stellar Converters are a waste of space - get Autofiring Shield-Piercing Heavy Phasors with a bunch of specials and you'll waste any ship foolish enough to get in front of you.

I always preferred either plasma weapons as Mike says (get close up and they're brutal) or disruptors.. both Auto fired.

Its also good to use a high energy focus, structural analyzer, and achilles targeting unit if oyu can find them. I never liked using shield piercers (mostly because its such fun just overloading the shields first) but that would probably be the only other modification (Besides auto fire) I might think of trying (although with plasma-armed Doomstars, as Mike suggested, could compensate for this with thier built-in "surround" effect, and sufficient numbers of plasma cannon.)

My other favorite technologies were the time dilators. I never used them with Phasing cloak (as Mike suggested) but with the teleportation technologies (allowing you to teleport in close one turn, fire broadside into the enemy, then teleport away)

[phongn]

I always preferred either plasma weapons as Mike says (get close up and they're brutal) or disruptors.. both Auto fired.

[/b]

Plasma cannon cannot be autofired, and distrupters don't miniaturize as well as phasors do. I usually have some plasma cannon with me for planatary bombardment, though (phasors cannot penetrate barrier shields even with system bonuses).

I usually had a mix of plasma-cannon and phasor-beam armed ships. Maybe a death-day or two thrown in, but those are space-intensive.

My other favorite technologies were the time dilators. I never used them with Phasing cloak (as Mike suggested) but with the teleportation technologies (allowing you to teleport in close one turn, fire broadside into the enemy, then teleport away)

Phasing cloak + Time Warp Facilitator == super cheap.

[Slartibartfast]

Master of Orion is a mish-mash of observed tech from all known sci-fi shows/movies, so I doubt we can objectively compare it to actual SF universes. The only thing original about it are the races (sort-of) but the whole tech tree is mixed techs from all shows.

How dare you criticize MOO2? My Doomstar with 2 stellar converters and an assload of plasma cannons will rape you!!!!!!

That wasn't criticism.

[jegs2]

Ah, MOO2! What a game to play.... I remember saving a race long enough to build a fleet of fifty Doom Stars and countless Titans to orbit the opposing race's ramaining planet and pick it apart until just one colonist remained. Then, the choice between invading with a butt-load of troops armed to the teeth or turning the planet into an asteroid field. .....Nah, I'll attack the Antarans and win that way, saving the opposing race for slave labor.

My Doom Stars generally carried stellar converters, death rays, heavy fighters, and plasma cannons. Instead of shields, I generally equipped them with that tech I stole from Orion, ah yes, dampening fields.

[Thunderfire]

I always preferred either plasma weapons as Mike says (get close up and they're brutal) or disruptors.. both Auto fired.

[/b]

Plasma cannon cannot be autofired, and distrupters don't miniaturize as well as phasors do. I usually have some plasma cannon with me for planatary bombardment, though (phasors cannot penetrate barrier shields even with system bonuses).

Phasors don't do enough damage. Hard Shields stop shield piercing
weapons and plasma cannons do 4x damage once the shields are
down. Maulers are also good because they always hit.

[Edi]

What about MoO1? *evil grin* Now that was a game where you had something that could really be called fleets! 32,000 ships with all the nice goodies put in... Ahh, the memories! Anyway, in the original MoO it wasn't even practical to build the bigger ships once you researched all the techs (especially all the advanced techs you could get), because everything got so miniaturised you could toss a death ray into a tiny little fighter, or deck it out with the latest in everything and disruptors and then build thousands of them in a single turn and kill anything and everything.

The turns were 1 year in the original and a month or several months but less than a year in MoO2.

Edi

[Doomriser]

What kind of races do you guys prefer? I use unification/tolerant and smash the enemy through sheer manufacturing capacity.

[Thunderfire]

1. Unification,Aquatic, +1 Production , Artifacts Homeworld, Rich HW,
all combat and spy penalties.
2. Feudal, Repulsive, Telepathic ,Warlord, +2Production , Rich, +10(20?)
Ground Combat or +20 Ship Attack

The first race is a top producer and is still able to research stuff fast.
The second race is a pure teleblitzer race.

[phongn]

I always preferred either plasma weapons as Mike says (get close up and they're brutal) or disruptors.. both Auto fired.

[/b]

Plasma cannon cannot be autofired, and distrupters don't miniaturize as well as phasors do. I usually have some plasma cannon with me for planatary bombardment, though (phasors cannot penetrate barrier shields even with system bonuses).

Phasors don't do enough damage. Hard Shields stop shield piercing
weapons and plasma cannons do 4x damage once the shields are
down. Maulers are also good because they always hit.

After miniaturization, phasors do more damage, especially at range. Hard Shields may stop SP, but I have enough firepower to destroy any ship in the game in a single salvo, with the possible exception of the Antaran Star Fortress.

[Antediluvian]

What kind of races do you guys prefer? I use unification/tolerant and smash the enemy through sheer manufacturing capacity.

I always like the Elerians for their Omniscent ability.

That's a very handy trick.

[Darth Wong]

The Psilons (or any race with "Creative") are pretty cool if you can just survive the early going. Once a race with a research bonus and "creative" gets its tech levels up there, it's pretty hard to stop them.

[TheDarkling]

Like Darth Wong says the Psilon are great simply because they get all research instead of just one out of three (from each level of each field) plus they rocket in research.

Once you get that research you get an industrial edge and a military edge plus the extra tech that other may not gives a diplomatic edge.

So I suppose its fair to say technology rules.

[Thunderfire]

[/b]

After miniaturization, phasors do more damage, especially at range. Hard Shields may stop SP, but I have enough firepower to destroy any ship in the game in a single salvo, with the possible exception of the Antaran Star Fortress.

Hmm my Plasma/Mauler Doomstars are able to destroy 12 antran ships
+ their starbase in one turn. I can load 396 plasma cannons on 1
doomstar.

[Edi]

If you really want to play some cool species, make a custom one with telepathy, maximum spying bonuses, uncreative disability, ground combat penalties and maybe production bonus or something like that. You'll be stuffed with the research, but who gives a damn when you can just rob your neighbors blind and they'll be researching things faster anyway.

Edi