NORFOLK, Va - By all accounts, the ship the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan replaced, the USS Constellation, still had some good years left.
It's true that when it was commissioned into the Navy's fleet in 1961, the Constellation had a projected life span of 30 years and would retire in 1991.
But the ship underwent a major overhaul from 1990 to 1993. That work was designed to extend its service for 15 years after the completion of the upgrade, meaning that the carrier conceivably could have remained a useful part of the Navy's fleet until 2008.
Yet there's only room in the Navy's budget for 12 aircraft carriers right now. And the Ronald Reagan, the Navy's newest aircraft carrier that was commissioned at the Norfolk Naval Base on Saturday, is number 13.
So that means that the San Diego-based Constellation, which flew 1,500 missions from its decks in its last deployment in Operation Iraqi Freedom, is being shown the door, even though it could have stayed in the fleet for five more years. It will be decommissioned Aug. 7 after 42 years of service.
Considering the Constellation's massive $800 million upgrade in 1990 that improved virtually every system on the ship - from the galleys to the engine rooms, and from the flight deck to the anchors - some see it as a waste that the ship is being pushed out of the fleet. But others say it's a wiser choice to simply shed the ship.
"There are really two schools of thought on this," said Ron O'Rourke, an analyst with the Congressional Research Service. "Some people say it's really a pity that there are these unused years of life that are not being taken advantage of. But some people say it's wasteful to keep a ship in service when the numbers would be in excess of our force structure requirements, and when that money could be spent on other defense programs."
To keep the Constellation in service as the nation's 13th carrier could cost about $500 million a year in operational and maintenance costs for the carrier alone, not to mention the massive costs associated with running the other ships in a Carrier Strike Group.
The fact that the Reagan is replacing the Constellation even as it still has some good years left also raises the issue of carrier construction timing and whether Congress and the Navy should have delayed the build-out of the carrier so that they better coincided with the ending life-span of the older ship. That was the reasoning behind some lawmakers' move in the early 1990s to delay the funding for the Reagan by at least five years.
But those who successfully argued against delaying the Ronald Reagan's timely funding said it was important to keep a steady flow of work going in order to retain the industrial capacity to build the massive ships. To be sure, delaying carrier work could cause wide-scale worker layoffs at places like Virginia's Northrop Grumman Newport News, now the country's only maker of aircraft carriers.
But many analysts say the fact that the Constellation is being forced out before it's necessarily ready to go is irrelevant when compared with the gains that Navy sailors, fliers and the service as a whole will get from having a brand new ship like the Reagan.
The Reagan can fly more sorties and deliver more air power faster than the Constellation, and it can create a better quality of life for sailors. The Reagan also has a nuclear power plant, meaning it can go about 25 years without refueling. The Constellation uses conventional fossil fuel.
"You do want to squeeze every ounce of usefulness out of the weapons platform that we've already paid for," acknowledged Bob Martinage, an analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a Washington, D.C., think tank. "But a newer ship is going to have more capability, more reliability. An older ship is not going to be as good as a new carrier that has come off the line. You can only upgrade things so much."
Though the Constellation is leaving the fleet, its sister ship that was also commissioned at the New York Naval Yard in 1961 - the USS Kitty Hawk - anticipates a somewhat longer life.
The Kitty Hawk, which is actually six months older than the Constellation, was once the ship that the Reagan was destined to replace. But the Kitty Hawk is now set to stay in service until 2008, when the next carrier, the George H.W. Bush, is scheduled to replace it. At its decommissioning, the Kitty Hawk is expected to be 47 years old.
The Navy said it decided to phase out the Constellation rather than the Kitty Hawk because, in part, the Kitty Hawk had an even more extensive overhaul than the Constellation in the early 1990s.
Another reason for selecting the Constellation, Martinage pointed out, may have been that the Kitty Hawk is stationed in Japan, where Japanese government policy prohibits nuclear powered warships to be stationed in its harbors.
The Ronald Reagan would not have been able to replace the Kitty Hawk without a change in the Japanese government's policy. But such a day of reckoning may be approaching. There are only two non-nuclear carriers left: The aging Kitty Hawk and the USS John F. Kennedy.
The constitution was retired today at Coronado.
Why in the hell is the next carrier going to be named After Emperor Bush I?
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Constellation, like all three conventionally powered CV's in the USN is best described as a floating wreck. Each one has a shaft out of service and needs hundreds of millions of dollars worth of work, the result of the Navy maintenance budget being 2/3's of what it should have been under Klinton. The USN was very reluctant to cut corners with its nuclear carriers so the conventional ones got doubly screwed. While she theoretically should last longer she's in no shape to do it, the other two are going to need some major and expensive work to make it to there own decommissions.
Anyway, there's no point to another deck, the carriers can carry 75 strike aircraft and currently have 40, the result of other Klinton cuts which resulted in only eleven air wings for twelve carriers and the freshly upgraded A-6 fleet being thrown into the ocean to make reefs after ten of millions of dollars of work to strip the things and make them nice and safe for the fish.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Sea Skimmer wrote:Constellation, like all three conventionally powered CV's in the USN is best described as a floating wreck. Each one has a shaft out of service and needs hundreds of millions of dollars worth of work, the result of the Navy maintenance budget being 2/3's of what it should have been under Klinton. The USN was very reluctant to cut corners with its nuclear carriers so the conventional ones got doubly screwed. While she theoretically should last longer she's in no shape to do it, the other two are going to need some major and expensive work to make it to there own decommissions.
Lol, this sounds like me at work telling people why you cannot use museum vehicles in their intended roles, esp the one comparitivly modern one.
When vehicles, or ships, reach a certain age they are shagged, no matter how much you refit them.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
Darth Fanboy wrote:
The constitution was retired today at Coronado.
Why in the hell is the next carrier going to be named After Emperor Bush I?
(you mean Constellation, right? The Consitution is a 45 Frigate in Boston.
Anyway, the naming of the next carrier has already been discussed. Personally, I think it should have been named one of the dozen or so unused carrier names, although for the current climate Reprisal fits best.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
It's a shame to see her go, certainly. I'd like to see her as a museum ship. Quite a bit of history in the ol' girl.
But at least she went out with one last hurrah (Iraqi Freedom) under her belt.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
Darth Fanboy wrote:Why in the hell is the next carrier going to be named After Emperor Bush I?
Bush is a Navy combat veteran, so giving him a ship wouldn't be inappropiate. However I go think they should wait until he passes away before they give it to him.
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
Darth Fanboy wrote:
The constitution was retired today at Coronado.
Why in the hell is the next carrier going to be named After Emperor Bush I?
(you mean Constellation, right? The Consitution is a 45 Frigate in Boston.
Anyway, the naming of the next carrier has already been discussed. Personally, I think it should have been named one of the dozen or so unused carrier names, although for the current climate Reprisal fits best.
Whoops, YEs, I did, At least i got it right in the title.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Stuart Mackey wrote: Lol, this sounds like me at work telling people why you cannot use museum vehicles in their intended roles, esp the one comparitivly modern one.
When vehicles, or ships, reach a certain age they are shagged, no matter how much you refit them.
That's not really the case here, the ship could be fixed and isn't in awful shape because she's worn out, its just not worth it at this point. Though when a steam turbine vessel does get worn out the steam plant is incredibly expensive to replace, cheaper to buy something new, which is why gas turbines are better. You can remove them in 3 days by pulling them out there air intakes, no deck cutting required. Doing the same with turbines would take over three years and require cutting through every deck.
Lonestar wrote: Anyway, the naming of the next carrier has already been discussed. Personally, I think it should have been named one of the dozen or so unused carrier names, although for the current climate Reprisal fits best.
Well actually the name Reprisal is an old carrier name as well ,it was assigned to CV-35, an Essex. She was around 50% complete in 1945 when the war stopped her construction. The ship was consider for conversion to a command or missile ship but ended up scrapped.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Darth Fanboy wrote:The constitution was retired today at Coronado.
Why in the hell is the next carrier going to be named After Emperor Bush I?
Fanboy, USS Constitution is actually the oldest commisioned warship in the world. She isn't "retiring" any time soon.
Constellation on the other hand is a mess as the JFK and the Kitty Hawk. All of them are due for decommisioning in the next few years and it's time for it.
They don't have any more life left thanks to maintenance shortchanges. The JFK actually had to delay her last departure for a week or so because she was simply in such bad shape. Had the money been spent to keep them in proper condition they would have those years, but they don't. Hell, for that matter the Enterprise is supposed to be having a lot of problems as well.
The Regean on the other hand had is a new, more capable carrier. The math seems smart to me. One carrier out, one carrier in.
Stuart Mackey wrote: Lol, this sounds like me at work telling people why you cannot use museum vehicles in their intended roles, esp the one comparitivly modern one.
When vehicles, or ships, reach a certain age they are shagged, no matter how much you refit them.
That's not really the case here, the ship could be fixed and isn't in awful shape because she's worn out, its just not worth it at this point. Though when a steam turbine vessel does get worn out the steam plant is incredibly expensive to replace, cheaper to buy something new, which is why gas turbines are better. You can remove them in 3 days by pulling them out there air intakes, no deck cutting required. Doing the same with turbines would take over three years and require cutting through every deck.
Ahh, indeed. We have a Ladder truck at work, nothing wrong with the truck, only done 38 000 miles but the ladder has faulty welds and a couple of other things wrong. Given the overall age of the vehicle it was cheaper in the long run to get a new {second hand } truck for the Fire Service.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
Darth Fanboy wrote:The constitution was retired today at Coronado.
Why in the hell is the next carrier going to be named After Emperor Bush I?
Fanboy, USS Constitution is actually the oldest commisioned warship in the world. She isn't "retiring" any time soon.
Constellation on the other hand is a mess as the JFK and the .
False. HMS Victory is the oldest commisioned warship in the world. Victory is currently the flagship of the Second Sea Lord and is still manned by RN officers and ratings.
Designed in 1759
Laid down 1765
First commisioned 1778.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
Stuart Mackey wrote:
False. HMS Victory is the oldest commisioned non-floating warship in the world.
Fixed it for you.
USS Constitution is the oldest functioning warship in the world! Hoorah,
sail that sucker around!
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Stuart Mackey wrote:
False. HMS Victory is the oldest commisioned warship in the world. Victory is currently the flagship of the Second Sea Lord and is still manned by RN officers and ratings.
Designed in 1759
Laid down 1765
First commisioned 1778.
Ba, Constitution can move under her own power while Victory would probably be destroyed if her dry dock was flooded. She's no warship.
Constellation on the other hand is a mess as the JFK and the Kitty Hawk. All of them are due for decommisioning in the next few years and it's time for it.
JFK is suppose to last until 2018, many don't expect her to last that long and with the USN's air group situation likely to worse that may not be such a bad thing.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. Suck that, HMS Victory.
"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me...God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist." -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov
"Hal grabs life by the balls and doesn't let you do that [to] hal."
"I hereby declare myself master of the known world."
Stuart Mackey wrote:
False. HMS Victory is the oldest commisioned warship in the world. Victory is currently the flagship of the Second Sea Lord and is still manned by RN officers and ratings.
Designed in 1759
Laid down 1765
First commisioned 1778.
Ba, Constitution can move under her own power while Victory would probably be destroyed if her dry dock was flooded. She's no warship.
Victory is under restoration and is due to be refloated in two years for the 200th anniversary of Trafalgar.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
First of all, the Constitution is a 44 gun frigate, not a 45.
While it's functionality can be questioned, the Constitution IS the oldest commisioned warship afloat.
And why the fuck everyone forgets the SECOND Constellation is still afloat at Baltimore is beyond me. I would've thought a nitpicker in this crowd would have mentioned it before me.
StarshipTitanic wrote:The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. Suck that, HMS Victory.
So What? When Constitition was dry docked for refit in 192 I guess she was no longer the oldest warship afloat either tsk tsk.. You, shep and Skimmer have commited what is known as a logical fallacy, that of strawman.
Suck it down damn yankee's
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Victory is under restoration and is due to be refloated in two years for the 200th anniversary of Trafalgar.
Yeah I heard that, I've also heard that they didn't expect to meet the goal because so much of the ships hull was smashed up. 551 pound bomb near miss in dry dock=fucking bad for wood ship. Its shear luck the thing didn't burn with a 40x40 foot hole in her side.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
StarshipTitanic wrote:The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. Suck that, HMS Victory.
So What? When Constitition was dry docked for refit in 192 I guess she was no longer the oldest warship afloat either tsk tsk.. You, shep and Skimmer have commited what is known as a logical fallacy, that of strawman.
Suck it down damn yankee's
Considering the rebuilds both those ships have undergone, I think Wasa should be mentioned, for mere original content.
Then, there's the Gokstad and Osberg ships.
Everybody better suck it down.
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Victory is under restoration and is due to be refloated in two years for the 200th anniversary of Trafalgar.
Yeah I heard that, I've also heard that they didn't expect to meet the goal because so much of the ships hull was smashed up. 551 pound bomb near miss in dry dock=fucking bad for wood ship. Its shear luck the thing didn't burn with a 40x40 foot hole in her side.
What you hear and what I have seen are two different things. When I was over there the hull was in reasonable order,certainly the Petty Officer who took us around thought so.
There is no mention that I have seen of the ship having suffered such severe damage that she cannot be refloated, allthough there was some keel damage.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
StarshipTitanic wrote:The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. Suck that, HMS Victory.
So What? When Constitition was dry docked for refit in 192 I guess she was no longer the oldest warship afloat either tsk tsk.. You, shep and Skimmer have commited what is known as a logical fallacy, that of strawman.
Suck it down damn yankee's
Considering the rebuilds both those ships have undergone, I think Wasa should be mentioned, for mere original content.
Then, there's the Gokstad and Osberg ships.
Everybody better suck it down.
Irerelivant nitpick/strawman! Face facts, Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship afloat or not is irrelivant to the fact! Such displays of strawman fallacies..such a disgrace on this web site
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Irerelivant nitpick/strawman! Face facts, Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship afloat
So you consider being up on concrete blocks = afloat
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
} truck for the Fire Service.
