[HOMOSEXUALITY] Need information on a specific point ...

[Frank Hipper]

One last part ...

-- On that point, you ain't successfully pointed out or exhibited squat. I'd be interested in seeing you try, though. The fact is, if you do a survey of all the great world Empires of the past (those from which we have sufficient information extant, that is), you'll see that more often than not, their downfall came as a result of corruption from within, rather than a superior enemy from without. And said corruption could be traced back, in large part, to the breakdown of the family unit and the resulting breakdown of morality of that culture.

Who exactly is this referring to?

Rome? Now there's a moral high point in history! And it can be argued that it never truly "fell" to begin with.

Egypt? I'd like to see him claim a decline in "family values" for that one!

The Inca?

Maya?

He's spouting bullshit without a leg to stand on. Ask for something that has verification, rather than some generalised, unsupportable opinions.

[Baron Scarpia]

One last part ...

-- On that point, you ain't successfully pointed out or exhibited squat. I'd be interested in seeing you try, though. The fact is, if you do a survey of all the great world Empires of the past (those from which we have sufficient information extant, that is), you'll see that more often than not, their downfall came as a result of corruption from within, rather than a superior enemy from without. And said corruption could be traced back, in large part, to the breakdown of the family unit and the resulting breakdown of morality of that culture.

This guy doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. Hell, just read Toynbee. Rome didn't collapse because of problems relating to homosexuality. It collapsed because it was a militaristic society that got too big for its britches, and because the Roman central authority depopulated the provinces through taxation. See, Italy was exempt from taxes, so all the funds for running the empire had to come from the conquered territories. When Rome hit its boundaries and couldn't expand anymore, it was unable to loot these conquests for cash, which put a big crimp on an Empire based on paying soldiers to fight. Couple that with the Volkwanderung creating a huge amount of pressure on the borders, the only source of income came from taxing the provinces into oblivion. Eventually, when the Imperial government couldn't pay the legions any more, they would go around on their own extorting money from towns and villages.

Finally, people just left the cities because then they could avoid the tax collectors, as it's hard to track people down in a sparsely-populated countryside. Disintegration proceeded from there.

The oft-claimed "moral collapse" of the Roman Empire is just silly. People who say this are just repeating nonsense they've heard passed down from ignorant moralist to ignorant moralist. Hey, since the Empire converted to Christianity more than a hundred years before the West collapsed, what would such a theory say about Christian morality?

[Darth Wong]

Thanks for your input, it's been very helpful. I have questions about another related matter now.

-- Not that hard to theorize at all, actually: Studies have shown that there is a high correlation between certain types of upbringing and the likelihood that a person will turn out gay. Specifically, an upbringing where the father is either absent, or (if he is present in the family at all) is cold, distant, and unloving toward the child, and the mother is overly controlling and protective towards the child. This is mainly in the case of males, but it may also hold for the female children of such a household as well.

I've heard a lot about this ... now, what study was this, and in your opinion is it a reliable one?

The phrase "studies have shown" is usually a precursor to "I'm about to spout bullshit".

[Johonebesus]

What's ironic is that Rome was far more moral in a Christian sense during its final decline than at any other time. Its most libertine period was the early time of its greatest glory. If it had any impact at all, Christianity actually hurt Rome by destroying families, because many noblemen decided to enter monasteries instead of making heirs, so many great houses went extinct. There is even a story about a young noblewoman who was Christian and decided to remain celibate. She had a hard time convincing her young husband, but when their only child was stillborn, he converted. They spent the rest of their days living as siblings and giving away all their inherited wealth to build monasteries and feed the poor (the story is also a testament to the incredible wealth enjoyed by the small upperclass in Rome).

[Bob McDob]

Hmm, I'm still waiting for Marina to reply to that :(

[PainRack]

One last part ...

-- On that point, you ain't successfully pointed out or exhibited squat. I'd be interested in seeing you try, though. The fact is, if you do a survey of all the great world Empires of the past (those from which we have sufficient information extant, that is), you'll see that more often than not, their downfall came as a result of corruption from within, rather than a superior enemy from without. And said corruption could be traced back, in large part, to the breakdown of the family unit and the resulting breakdown of morality of that culture.

Point out the reverse. The Americans are prospering ever since female equality,etc etc set in.

What on earth does a family unit and morality have to do with a civilisation? Sure, a society ridden with crime because of no morality, have kids that are pyschotic because of being abused in the childhood years will be crack but this?