Vaya con Dios USS Constellation

[Stuart Mackey]

Irerelivant nitpick/strawman! Face facts, Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship afloat

So you consider being up on concrete blocks = afloat

aHH SHIT!!!! lol, umm err. I hate arguing while thinking of 3 different things at once..It aint a good look.

What I should have said was..
Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship in existance, afloat or drydocked.

[Sea Skimmer]

aHH SHIT!!!! lol, umm err. I hate arguing while thinking of 3 different things at once..It aint a good look.

What I should have said was..
Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship in existance, afloat or drydocked.

*Commissions rotting buried remains of Indian canoe from 1000AD into USN*

We win

[StarshipTitanic]

Irerelivant nitpick/strawman! Face facts, Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship afloat

So you consider being up on concrete blocks = afloat

aHH SHIT!!!! lol, umm err. I hate arguing while thinking of 3 different things at once..It aint a good look.

What I should have said was..
Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship in existance, afloat or drydocked.

Yes, the Victory is the oldest commissioned warship and the Constitution is the oldest one afloat.

When I stated this did I say that it contradicted your argument? No. Did you attack a comment that was actually supporting your position? Yes.

[StarshipTitanic]

aHH SHIT!!!! lol, umm err. I hate arguing while thinking of 3 different things at once..It aint a good look.

What I should have said was..
Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship in existance, afloat or drydocked.

*Commissions rotting buried remains of Indian canoe from 1000AD into USN*

We win

He he he, the worst the Brits can do is commission the Mary Rose.

[Darth Fanboy]

The constitution was retired today at Coronado.

Why in the hell is the next carrier going to be named After Emperor Bush I?

Fanboy, USS Constitution is actually the oldest commisioned warship in the world. She isn't "retiring" any time soon.


Constellation on the other hand is a mess as the JFK and the Kitty Hawk. All of them are due for decommisioning in the next few years and it's time for it.

They don't have any more life left thanks to maintenance shortchanges. The JFK actually had to delay her last departure for a week or so because she was simply in such bad shape. Had the money been spent to keep them in proper condition they would have those years, but they don't. Hell, for that matter the Enterprise is supposed to be having a lot of problems as well.

The Regean on the other hand had is a new, more capable carrier. The math seems smart to me. One carrier out, one carrier in.

AS nice at it is of you to correct me if you look back and read the thread you'll find that you're over five hours too late to catch my misspeak. Even former horsemen are human too, ja?

[StarshipTitanic]

The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. Suck that, HMS Victory.

So What? When Constitition was dry docked for refit in 192 I guess she was no longer the oldest warship afloat either tsk tsk.. You, shep and Skimmer have commited what is known as a logical fallacy, that of strawman.
Suck it down damn yankee's

I handled your kneejerking, but the fact that the Constitution EXITED the drydock is saying something.

[Sea Skimmer]

I handled your kneejerking, but the fact that the Constitution EXITED the drydock is saying something.

Constitution's permanent residence has never been a dry dock, she entered only for a refit while HMS Victory's been sitting in hers for a couple generations.

[LordShaithis]

I think they should restore the Victory and Constitution to combat-readiness, cannonballs and everything, and have them fight to the death!

[Sea Skimmer]

I think they should restore the Victory and Constitution to combat-readiness, cannonballs and everything, and have them fight to the death!

A ship the line owns a mere frigate, Victory has twice the firepower and is much larger.

[MKSheppard]

A ship the line owns a mere frigate, Victory has twice the firepower and is much larger.

Well, the US Frigates weren't really frigates - more like superfrigates.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well, the US Frigates weren't really frigates - more like superfrigates.

She's still outgunned two to one and while her thick sides could repel 9 pounder and most 18 pounder fire they wont stop Victory's 24 and 36 pound balls.

[StarshipTitanic]

I handled your kneejerking, but the fact that the Constitution EXITED the drydock is saying something.

Constitution's permanent residence has never been a dry dock, she entered only for a refit while HMS Victory's been sitting in hers for a couple generations.

I know that, I live near Boston. Read his post again, he said that since it was restored in a drydock it didn't count as afloat.

[StarshipTitanic]

Well, the US Frigates weren't really frigates - more like superfrigates.

She's still outgunned two to one and while her thick sides could repel 9 pounder and most 18 pounder fire they wont stop Victory's 24 and 36 pound balls.

What would the Victory's hull stop?

[Sea Skimmer]

What would the Victory's hull stop?

It should repel 9-pounder fire but not 18-pounder fire. The US frigates had 18-pounder balls bounce off because they had very closely spaced frames, Victory's have much greater gaps and while a direct hit on the frame should also bounce off hits in-between will mostly penetrate.

[Howedar]

Anyway, there's no point to another deck, the carriers can carry 75 strike aircraft and currently have 40

Sea Skimmer, I've seen you bandy this point about time and again. Yet, I've never seen anything supporting this number. Today's carrier air wings have nine squadrons apiece, generally. Are you telling me that each squadron has a grand total of five aircraft?

[Sea Skimmer]

Sea Skimmer, I've seen you bandy this point about time and again. Yet, I've never seen anything supporting this number. Today's carrier air wings have nine squadrons apiece, generally. Are you telling me that each squadron has a grand total of five aircraft?

I'm talking about strike aircraft, you know, fasting moving jet things that drop bombs and shoot missiles. Each carrier should have three squadrons of 12 Hornets each and one of 14 Tomcats, 50 aircraft total. But those squadrons are under strength and there a drain to cover the fact that we have twelve carriers and only eleven air wings.

Now meanwhile the designed capacity would allow them to hold an additional pair of squadrons with about 20-24 aircraft for a total of about 75 Strike aircraft. The helicopters, S-3, Prowler and Hawkeye units are all pretty much up to strength and would be the same regardless.

The situation is so bad that carrier S-3 units no longer fly ASW patrol because there needed as tankers and now even as strike birds armed with Mavericks and bombs. And its not going to get better, the USN had hoped that it would keep its carrier groups at about 50 strike aircraft but Congressional cuts to JSF and F/A-18 procurement have forced the navy to plan for its future 2010+ squadrons to have only ten aircraft each with just four per ships and some of those may be USMC aircraft. The increased capability of the planes helps a whole lot, but 10 munitions still can't strike 20 targets.

I really hope this will chance and will see a return to at least 60 aircraft per deck. With the USMC pushing for a future LPH in the 60,000-ton range I'd hope we also will actually be able to put a squadron of JSF's on its deck.

[StarshipTitanic]

What would the Victory's hull stop?

It should repel 9-pounder fire but not 18-pounder fire. The US frigates had 18-pounder balls bounce off because they had very closely spaced frames, Victory's have much greater gaps and while a direct hit on the frame should also bounce off hits in-between will mostly penetrate.

If the Constitution stays at the bow and stern of the Victory (I assume this would be easy since it should be more nimble, am I right?), would it have a chance to at least damage the Victory?

[Sea Skimmer]

If the Constitution stays at the bow and stern of the Victory (I assume this would be easy since it should be more nimble, am I right?), would it have a chance to at least damage the Victory?

Maneuverability is dependent on the ships position relative to the wind more then anything else, the ships are about equally likely to rake each other.

[Howedar]

I'm talking about strike aircraft, you know, fasting moving jet things that drop bombs and shoot missiles.

Last I checked, I have a Constitutional right to poor reading comprehension and stupidity.

But seriously, I missed that part.

Each carrier should have three squadrons of 12 Hornets each and one of 14 Tomcats, 50 aircraft total. But those squadrons are under strength and there a drain to cover the fact that we have twelve carriers and only eleven air wings.

For what its worth, globalsecurity.org places the carrier air wings at 4 strike fighter squadrons. I don't know how dated that info is, but surely it dates into the late Clinton era.

*snip*
I really hope this will chance and will see a return to at least 60 aircraft per deck. With the USMC pushing for a future LPH in the 60,000-ton range I'd hope we also will actually be able to put a squadron of JSF's on its deck.

So do I.

[Sea Skimmer]

For what its worth, globalsecurity.org places the carrier air wings at 4 strike fighter squadrons. I don't know how dated that info is, but surely it dates into the late Clinton era.

The air group problem isn't exactly new, we just haven't had the demand until recently to make it an issue. Clintons defence policy is what created it.

But that reading comprehension issue is cropping up again, you see at the bottom of each Global Security page is the date it was last modified, December 31, 2002 in this case of this one.

[Stuart Mackey]

So you consider being up on concrete blocks = afloat

aHH SHIT!!!! lol, umm err. I hate arguing while thinking of 3 different things at once..It aint a good look.

What I should have said was..
Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship in existance, afloat or drydocked.

Yes, the Victory is the oldest commissioned warship and the Constitution is the oldest one afloat.

When I stated this did I say that it contradicted your argument? No. Did you attack a comment that was actually supporting your position? Yes.

Oh fhooy.

[Stuart Mackey]

aHH SHIT!!!! lol, umm err. I hate arguing while thinking of 3 different things at once..It aint a good look.

What I should have said was..
Victory is the worlds oldest commisioned warship in existance, afloat or drydocked.

*Commissions rotting buried remains of Indian canoe from 1000AD into USN*

We win

He he he, the worst the Brits can do is commission the Mary Rose.

errr....well that is just the ribs really, and only one side

[Stuart Mackey]

The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. Suck that, HMS Victory.

So What? When Constitition was dry docked for refit in 192 I guess she was no longer the oldest warship afloat either tsk tsk.. You, shep and Skimmer have commited what is known as a logical fallacy, that of strawman.
Suck it down damn yankee's

I handled your kneejerking, but the fact that the Constitution EXITED the drydock is saying something.

So will Victory, when they are finished getting her ready.

[Stuart Mackey]

I handled your kneejerking, but the fact that the Constitution EXITED the drydock is saying something.

Constitution's permanent residence has never been a dry dock, she entered only for a refit while HMS Victory's been sitting in hers for a couple generations.

Victory was neglected fo some time befor drydocking. Drydocking has never been the intention of being a permant home as a means of preservation and restoration to her 1805 condition.

[Stuart Mackey]

What would the Victory's hull stop?

It should repel 9-pounder fire but not 18-pounder fire. The US frigates had 18-pounder balls bounce off because they had very closely spaced frames, Victory's have much greater gaps and while a direct hit on the frame should also bounce off hits in-between will mostly penetrate.

If the Constitution stays at the bow and stern of the Victory (I assume this would be easy since it should be more nimble, am I right?), would it have a chance to at least damage the Victory?

Its not so much nimblesness as who has thw weather gauge. Victory, being larger will be faster with the wind and can detirmine how to engage.