Vaya con Dios USS Constellation

[Stuart Mackey]

What would the Victory's hull stop?

It should repel 9-pounder fire but not 18-pounder fire. The US frigates had 18-pounder balls bounce off because they had very closely spaced frames, Victory's have much greater gaps and while a direct hit on the frame should also bounce off hits in-between will mostly penetrate.

A lot depends on range. either way the American frigate is BB fodder

[Lonestar]

Well actually the name Reprisal is an old carrier name as well ,it was assigned to CV-35, an Essex. She was around 50% complete in 1945 when the war stopped her construction. The ship was consider for conversion to a command or missile ship but ended up scrapped.

That was the carrier I was thinking of when I said I prefer Reprisal

Also on the list of "Better than Bush I" is Ranger, Midway, Coral Sea, and Lexington.

[StarshipTitanic]

*Commissions rotting buried remains of Indian canoe from 1000AD into USN*

We win

He he he, the worst the Brits can do is commission the Mary Rose.

errr....well that is just the ribs really, and only one side

And a rotting Indian canoe would be just as seaworthy, it was humor!

So will Victory, when they are finished getting her ready.

GAHHHHHHHHHHHH! But it DOESN'T so THEREFORE the AMERICANS can BRAG about their FLOATING SHIP!!!!!

[Stormbringer]

First of all, the Constitution is a 44 gun frigate, not a 45.

While it's functionality can be questioned, the Constitution IS the oldest commisioned warship afloat.

USS Constitution's able to make sail after her last refit. I'd call that functional. She might not be in exactly fighting trim but she's definitely seaworthy and shipshape.

And why the fuck everyone forgets the SECOND Constellation is still afloat at Baltimore is beyond me. I would've thought a nitpicker in this crowd would have mentioned it before me.

Because she's in sad shape and they're in the process of gutting and rebuilding her so she doesn't sink?

[Frank Hipper]

Because she's in sad shape and they're in the process of gutting and rebuilding her so she doesn't sink?

That rebuild was completed several years ago. Notice the lack of a hog to the hull in the photo I posted.
A hog which was partly in due because of previous rebuilds that were intended to fraudulently pass this ship off as the the original frigate of the 1797, and not the the sloop of 1855 she is.

[Stormbringer]

Because she's in sad shape and they're in the process of gutting and rebuilding her so she doesn't sink?

That rebuild was completed several years ago. Notice the lack of a hog to the hull in the photo I posted.
A hog which was partly in due because of previous rebuilds that were intended to fraudulently pass this ship off as the the original frigate of the 1797, and not the the sloop of 1855 she is.

I'm aware of how the damge was inflicted. I didn't know the rebuild has been completed though. Last I had heard she was still undergoing a lot of work to restore her to the 1855 sloop of war configuration rather than fraud-frigate.

[Frank Hipper]

I'm aware of how the damge was inflicted. I didn't know the rebuild has been completed though. Last I had heard she was still undergoing a lot of work to restore her to the 1855 sloop of war configuration rather than fraud-frigate.

Official Site.
And the added info was for anyone who might happen to be reading this thread, not just you.

[Frank Hipper]

Its not so much nimblesness as who has thw weather gauge. Victory, being larger will be faster with the wind and can detirmine how to engage.

No.
Being a British ship of the line from the 1760's, Victory was a notoriously bad sailer. All British ships of the line were at that time. They were overgunned for their size, and suffered from poor underwater hull-form. She'd never be able to take advantage of any wind, weather gauge or not, especially not fighting a frigate.

And, while the Royal Navy at the time an encounter like this may have been the best in the world, over-all, the Constitution posessed a crew who's ship handling talents were far above average. This was repeatedly demonstrated during the War of 1812 by out-sailing other frigates, repeatedly, any ship-of-the-line would be left wallowing in her wake.

[Howedar]

For what its worth, globalsecurity.org places the carrier air wings at 4 strike fighter squadrons. I don't know how dated that info is, but surely it dates into the late Clinton era.

The air group problem isn't exactly new, we just haven't had the demand until recently to make it an issue. Clintons defence policy is what created it.

But that reading comprehension issue is cropping up again, you see at the bottom of each Global Security page is the date it was last modified, December 31, 2002 in this case of this one.

Do you mean to tell me that, in the last eight months, the US Navy and USMC have deactivated some dozen strike fighter squadrons? 12-31-2002 is quite current; I'd very much doubt the CAW makeup has changed markedly since then.


And I meant to say that it was "no more dated than the late Clinton era". Whoops.

[Howedar]

Never mind, I'm a fucking moron.

[Stuart Mackey]

GAHHHHHHHHHHHH! But it DOESN'T so THEREFORE the AMERICANS can BRAG about their FLOATING SHIP!!!!!

But the fact remains that she is not the oldest commisioned warship, which was my point in the first place, so stop rabbiting on with such a strawman.

[Stuart Mackey]

Its not so much nimblesness as who has thw weather gauge. Victory, being larger will be faster with the wind and can detirmine how to engage.

No.
Being a British ship of the line from the 1760's, Victory was a notoriously bad sailer. All British ships of the line were at that time. They were overgunned for their size, and suffered from poor underwater hull-form. She'd never be able to take advantage of any wind, weather gauge or not, especially not fighting a frigate.

And, while the Royal Navy at the time an encounter like this may have been the best in the world, over-all, the Constitution posessed a crew who's ship handling talents were far above average. This was repeatedly demonstrated during the War of 1812 by out-sailing other frigates, repeatedly, any ship-of-the-line would be left wallowing in her wake.

Other British BB's of the time certainly were, Victory, however was an exception. Victory had a reputaion at the time of being a very good sailor which is why she was flagship on numerious occations.
BTW, when it comes to sailing, a larger ship will generally run down a smaller ship due to greater waterline length and greater sail area. Allthough one must takinto account the gunge on the bum, as this can slowthing up a great deal.

Of course its irrelivant..at the time the Brits truly did rule the waves so Constituion was nothing more than a nuisence.

[StarshipTitanic]

GAHHHHHHHHHHHH! But it DOESN'T so THEREFORE the AMERICANS can BRAG about their FLOATING SHIP!!!!!

But the fact remains that she is not the oldest commisioned warship, which was my point in the first place, so stop rabbiting on with such a strawman.

*smack*

And my point was...

*smack*

to point out...

*smack*

that the Constitution is the oldest commisioned floating wood...

*smack*

but never did I deny that the Victory is the oldest commisioned formerly floating wood.

*smack*

I never said...

*smack*

anything, ANYTHING, different!

*smack*

But you're imagining...

*smack*

an American conspiracy.

*smack*

I know, let's really investigate that insidious first post of mine!

The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. Suck that, HMS Victory.

Emphasis mine. Now, please tell me where I attempted to demonstrate how you are somehow wrong about the Victory. Describe how correcting the one (Stormbringer) who thought the Constitution was the oldest somehow reflected upon you. I'd sure like to know because I'm just not seeing it. What I'm seeing is someone hell-bent on misinterpreting what I said because he screwed up.

Let's look over the other people's posts:

Fanboy, USS Constitution is actually the oldest commisioned warship in the world. She isn't "retiring" any time soon.

Someone I corrected...

USS Constitution is the oldest functioning warship in the world!

He stated a fact. Deal with it.

Ba, Constitution can move under her own power while Victory would probably be destroyed if her dry dock was flooded. She's no warship.

He's right, too. The Victory can't sail, the Constitution can.

And now that I think about it, the Victory isn't a warship. It's the world's oldest commisionied hulk. Ho ho ho, looks like they were right and we were wrong.

[Frank Hipper]

BTW, when it comes to sailing, a larger ship will generally run down a smaller ship due to greater waterline length and greater sail area. Allthough one must takinto account the gunge on the bum, as this can slowthing up a great deal.

The ratio of mass below water to sail area is what you're looking for here. And hull form below water.
Length at the waterline affects sailing qualities how? The waterline is the least crucial area in performance due to very fact that it's in variable contact with the water. You didn't mean length to beam ratio, did you?
And Victory's reputation as a sailing battleship may been high in the Royal Navy, but she didn't sail like her French equivalents. Or a frigate of any nation.

[Stuart Mackey]

GAHHHHHHHHHHHH! But it DOESN'T so THEREFORE the AMERICANS can BRAG about their FLOATING SHIP!!!!!

But the fact remains that she is not the oldest commisioned warship, which was my point in the first place, so stop rabbiting on with such a strawman.

*smack*

And my point was...

*smack*

to point out...

*smack*

that the Constitution is the oldest commisioned floating wood...

*smack*

but never did I deny that the Victory is the oldest commisioned formerly floating wood.

*smack*

I never said...

*smack*

anything, ANYTHING, different!

*smack*

But you're imagining...

*smack*

an American conspiracy.

*smack*

I know, let's really investigate that insidious first post of mine!

Ok bitch, lets fight.
I corrected on person, and that statement of mine was was distorted as a case of oneupmanship..get it yet? you are a slack jawed veritable illiterate.

The USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. Suck that, HMS Victory.

Emphasis mine. Now, please tell me where I attempted to demonstrate how you are somehow wrong about the Victory. Describe how correcting the one (Stormbringer) who thought the Constitution was the oldest somehow reflected upon you. I'd sure like to know because I'm just not seeing it. What I'm seeing is someone hell-bent on misinterpreting what I said because he screwed up.

I was, and am critisizing a continued distortion of a fact..why do you not get this? have you been having sleepless nights or some other ailment which would explain this?

Let's look over the other people's posts:

Fanboy, USS Constitution is actually the oldest commisioned warship in the world. She isn't "retiring" any time soon.

Someone I corrected...

USS Constitution is the oldest functioning warship in the world!

He stated a fact. Deal with it.

A sure he stated a fact..from a point of veiw in that she can sail, but had nothing to do with it and is quite beside the point given that the sloop is not the oldest commisioned warship..that is a fact deal with it.

Ba, Constitution can move under her own power while Victory would probably be destroyed if her dry dock was flooded. She's no warship.

He's right, too. The Victory can't sail, the Constitution can.

Right? lets examine the staement. Would she be destroyed if the docks were opened? fuck knows, he hasnt shown any evidence. When I saw the ship when I was over there the hull was intact, however.
So, thats another distortion on my statement of fact.

And now that I think about it, the Victory isn't a warship. It's the world's oldest commisionied hulk. Ho ho ho, looks like they were right and we were wrong.

And now that you think about it? in this post you have not shown and ability to actualy comprehend, let alone think, what has actually occured in this thread hijack..a correction was made and was promply turned into a strawman as a bit of harmless fun and now you are getting snotty about it.
Now why dont you go get a good night sleep, fuck a chicken, or whatever you do for relaxation and get a fucking grip.

[Stuart Mackey]

BTW, when it comes to sailing, a larger ship will generally run down a smaller ship due to greater waterline length and greater sail area. Allthough one must takinto account the gunge on the bum, as this can slowthing up a great deal.

The ratio of mass below water to sail area is what you're looking for here. And hull form below water.
Length at the waterline affects sailing qualities how? The waterline is the least crucial area in performance due to very fact that it's in variable contact with the water. You didn't mean length to beam ratio, did you?
And Victory's reputation as a sailing battleship may been high in the Royal Navy, but she didn't sail like her French equivalents. Or a frigate of any nation.

Well I am no ship desighner, I just sail boats, so I wouldnt know exactly . I would assume that when they talk about sailing qualities they mean livibility in various sea states..after all a raceing boat does not, as a rule, have as good a quality of ride as a proper cruising vessel. I do know that when the Brits needed to they could, and did , bring enemy fleets to action and win.

[Frank Hipper]

That's just the thing, Jack Tar achieved what he did in spite of the ships he was given to fight in, not because of them.

[Sea Skimmer]

That's just the thing, Jack Tar achieved what he did in spite of the ships he was given to fight in, not because of them.

The French where kind enough to provide a great many of there excellent sailing vessels to his service.

[Stuart Mackey]

That's just the thing, Jack Tar achieved what he did in spite of the ships he was given to fight in, not because of them.

Tis true, and is generally the case. The British did sail in "Illfounded ships", I just say that Victory was a exception to that rule.

[Stuart Mackey]

That's just the thing, Jack Tar achieved what he did in spite of the ships he was given to fight in, not because of them.

The French where kind enough to provide a great many of there excellent sailing vessels to his service.

I say old chap, Jolly decent of the frogs, eh? what what?

[StarshipTitanic]

Ok bitch, lets fight.
I corrected on person, and that statement of mine was was distorted as a case of oneupmanship..get it yet? you are a slack jawed veritable illiterate.

That's what Shep did, not me. Now you have the notion that I'm defending everybody, whee...

I was, and am critisizing a continued distortion of a fact..why do you not get this? have you been having sleepless nights or some other ailment which would explain this?

No facts were distorted, only facts stated that showed the Victory to be a joke. You're just as bad as the American Conspiracy members, trumpeting "your" ship just as loud.

A sure he stated a fact..from a point of veiw in that she can sail, but had nothing to do with it and is quite beside the point given that the sloop is not the oldest commisioned warship..that is a fact deal with it.

I'm only trumpeting the fact that the Constitution floats because you're being such a stubborn ass about my super secret ulterior motive.

Even though it's true.

Right? lets examine the staement. Would she be destroyed if the docks were opened? fuck knows, he hasnt shown any evidence. When I saw the ship when I was over there the hull was intact, however.
So, thats another distortion on my statement of fact.

So because we don't know for sure we can't judge? I would think it's in a drydock for a reason.

And now that you think about it?

Was this supposed to be you disagreeing on the Victory being a hulk?

Well I think I'm done with this thread now that this has devolved into HoS material.