Dovin basals, gravity-wells and shields

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-09 05:17pm

I just read "Vector Prime" again and there was one thing, that cought my attention:

In the novel the Yuuzhan Vong use the gravity-fields created by their dovin-basals to get rid of the shields, that protect the fighters of the New Republic.

Shouldn´t it be therefor possible to do the same with the gravity-waves of an Interdictor-cruiser?

Imagine the following scenario: Force A with a Star Destroyer and an Immobilizer-418 (or a Dominator-class-Interdictor-destroyer) on the one side, on the other side force B with an Executor or a number of other ISDs.

Force A would use its Interdictor-ship to destroy the shields of the ships of force B and its ISD would take care of the rest.

How possible would this be, considering everything we know about Interdictors and dovin-basals?

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-08-09 05:41pm

There are as far as I have seen two major differences between dovin basals and gravity-well projectors.

1) Dovin basals absorb light - they are artificial singularities, while gravity well projectors simulate the mass of planetary bodies. In other words, the former is a lot stronger than the latter.

2) Gravity wells project their field over a large area, to keep starships in realspace. Dovin basals are much more localized, since their primary function is propulsion.

An interdictor is most likely not able to project singularities. Futhermore, gravity wells consume large amounts of power. Although the Empire has the technology to create artificial singularities, it is reasonable to belive that it would be more energy effective to simply shoot the fighters with lasers or some such.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-09 05:49pm

Dovin Basal "shielding" singularities are more localized, shorter ranged, short-term gravitic phenomena that are relatively stronger than the fields produced by an interdictor (Interdictors can limit the mobility of smaller ships, even on sublight, as well as be used for a repulsor effect, but they do not noticably interdict weapons fire.)

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-09 06:11pm

The thing i wonder is:

Can a (maybe) focussed gravity-well from an Interdictor be used to tear the shields of an capital enemy-ship away, so that the attacked ship would be helpless to the assault of my other capital ships?

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-08-09 06:14pm

I'm still a little fuzzy on how the dovin basals can pull the sheilds off fighters. How is this achived? Do they overload the sheilds causing them to fall, or do they physically pull the sheild barrier from the fighter?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-08-09 07:10pm

Keep in mind that even large Vong ships can't deshield anything larger than a Corellian Gunship. So it definitely wouldn't work on an ISD, let alone a SSD.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-08-09 11:27pm

FTeik wrote:The thing i wonder is:

Can a (maybe) focussed gravity-well from an Interdictor be used to tear the shields of an capital enemy-ship away, so that the attacked ship would be helpless to the assault of my other capital ships?

Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Perhaps you'd like to post proof such a thing is possible?

Perhaps you'd consider that planetary and stellar gravity wells don't rip the shields off nearby ships? Even the Maw Black Holes do not?

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-08-10 05:10am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
FTeik wrote:The thing i wonder is:

Can a (maybe) focussed gravity-well from an Interdictor be used to tear the shields of an capital enemy-ship away, so that the attacked ship would be helpless to the assault of my other capital ships?
Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Perhaps you'd like to post proof such a thing is possible?

Perhaps you'd consider that planetary and stellar gravity wells don't rip the shields off nearby ships? Even the Maw Black Holes do not?

he is trying to base this theory off of what the Vong accomplish in the NJO,though he has no evidence that the interdictors gravity well works like a dovin basal.

It still sounds ludicrous. Also, I think that would really fuck up the Interdictor if it were possible. merely switching the gravity well projectors from "pull" to "push" (Solo Command) wreaks havoc with ship's artificial gravity.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-10 10:23am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
FTeik wrote:The thing i wonder is:

Can a (maybe) focussed gravity-well from an Interdictor be used to tear the shields of an capital enemy-ship away, so that the attacked ship would be helpless to the assault of my other capital ships?
Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Perhaps you'd like to post proof such a thing is possible?

Perhaps you'd consider that planetary and stellar gravity wells don't rip the shields off nearby ships? Even the Maw Black Holes do not?

Unable to read what i wrote or what?

I NEVER claimed that it happened this way in SW.

I ASKED, if it could be possible, if an Interdictor focusses his wide-spread cone of gravity into a tight beam (or directs his four projectors in a way, that all four concentrate on a target).

And i don´t think we can compare the gravity of planets and stellar objects that easily. For once the force of the gravity spreads over a vastly larger area, second, how often come SW-ships close to the gravity-well of a black hole and as a third, how does your little argument work with the way dovin-basals are used?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-08-10 10:28am

Its precisely the kind of useless "what if this!" speculation.

There's no evidence it can do anything like that, all we know it does is simulate the gravitational influences of sub-planetary-mass bodies.

And JAT had a battle in the middle of the Maw with never any shield loss.

As for Dovin Basals, they're magic gravity devices which arbitrarily create enormous gravity as needed in very localized form.

Grav-well projectors do not and never have shown any of the abilities you claim or wonder are possible, so the question is useless. I suppose you could make it happen if you wrote a fanfic, but nothing we know shows anything like that is possible.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-10 10:41am

Conceivably possible, but the Interdictor would have to put out as much energy as the shields its trying to remove, and turbolasers are cheaper.
Bottom line, there still is no free lunch.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-10 10:42am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its precisely the kind of useless "what if this!" speculation.

Why would it be useless?
Keep in mind, that interdictor-technology was only invented during the empires height (the DSI had a prototype aboard) and hardly all possible tactics are discovered or known to be possible (like Thrawn´s Pincer-tactic).

Is it my fault, nobody at Del´Rey or LFL has thought about it, when they created the dovin-basals?

There's no evidence it can do anything like that, all we know it does is simulate the gravitational influences of sub-planetary-mass bodies.

Stellar-mass-bodies, if i remember correct.

And JAT had a battle in the middle of the Maw with never any shield loss.

And never in that battle was a natural or artifical black hole only a few meters away from the shields or the hull of one of the vessels.

As for Dovin Basals, they're magic gravity devices which arbitrarily create enormous gravity as needed in very localized form.

Organic, please. That fact, that they are organic and the entire concept of organic and gravity-based technology is ridicilous from a real-world-point of view, but they exist, so we have to live with it.

Grav-well projectors do not and never have shown any of the abilities you claim or wonder are possible, so the question is useless. I suppose you could make it happen if you wrote a fanfic, but nothing we know shows anything like that is possible.

If they have never shown such abilities, how do you know they can not? And the similarities between dovin-basals and gravity-well-projectors are close enough, that it could very well be possible.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-08-10 10:57am

FTeik wrote:Stellar-mass-bodies, if i remember correct.

Yes, hence why every time one of them is turned out a solar system goes to hell and the nearest planet suffers catastrophic tidal forces.

We've never seen significant gravitational affects from a grav-well projector as you'd expect from a real-world grav-well of that strength.

Gravity well projectors generate enormous-size magical fields which make hyperdrives inoperable, basically. They set off the safety triggers and can cause damage. But they never exert massive tidal forces or disrupt systems. You're wrong.

FTeik wrote:Organic, please. That fact, that they are organic and the entire concept of organic and gravity-based technology is ridicilous from a real-world-point of view, but they exist, so we have to live with it.

Hence "magic," pal. As in "they don't make any fucking sense."

FTeik wrote:If they have never shown such abilities, how do you know they can not? And the similarities between dovin-basals and gravity-well-projectors are close enough, that it could very well be possible.

Debating 101.

The burden of proof is on you, not me, to justify your assumptions. You do not offer proof of negatives.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-10 11:18am

Yes, hence why every time one of them is turned out a solar system goes to hell and the nearest planet suffers catastrophic tidal forces.

We've never seen significant gravitational affects from a grav-well projector as you'd expect from a real-world grav-well of that strength.

Maybe because real-world grav-wells are omnidirectional, while the Interdictor is directional?

Gravity well projectors generate enormous-size magical fields which make hyperdrives inoperable, basically. They set off the safety triggers and can cause damage. But they never exert massive tidal forces or disrupt systems. You're wrong.

But they were able to push ships around in SoloCommand and they also work without safety-trigger (this was in "RogueSquadron")

FTeik wrote:Organic, please. That fact, that they are organic and the entire concept of organic and gravity-based technology is ridicilous from a real-world-point of view, but they exist, so we have to live with it.

Hence "magic," pal. As in "they don't make any fucking sense."

Like hypermatter. Moonsized stations that can destroy entire planets. And so on. They exist in SW. Live with it.

Debating 101.

The burden of proof is on you, not me, to justify your assumptions. You do not offer proof of negatives.

Once again:
My initial post was a question, if there is enough to justify such an assumption with what we know about dobin-basals and the working mechanism of Interdictor-crusiers.

From the ISB:

Interdictor Cruisers

When the Empire developed a working gravity well projector, it was determined that a special vessel would need to be constructed to provide the necessary power output the device required. So the Interdictor-class heavy cruiser was designed by Sienar Fleet Systems.

The gravity well generator works on a simple principle. When focused, it sends out waves of energy that disrupt mass lines in space, thereby simulating the presence of a large stellar body such as an asteroid or planetoid. The presence of so much mass prevents ships in the area from engaging their hyperdrives, and it also drops ships already in hyperspace back into realspace.

The Interdictor cruiser serves as an escape cut-off, strategically stationed out of direct combat but in a position that provides a maximum fire arc. It projects fields of gravity throughout a battle zone, rendering all hyperdrives inoperable. This greatly reduces the chances of Rebel ships, which normally survive by using quick hit-and-run tactics and then escape into lightspeed.

These heavy cruisers also perform as ambush vessels, hiding along a known hyperspace lane and projecting gravity fields that produce mass shadows. Any ships traveling along the hyper route must slip back into realspace when confronted with gravity projections. Once in realspace, other Imperial vessels can engage them in direct combat or board them for customs inspection.

It projects fields of gravity throughout a battlezone ...

... and projecting gravity fields ...

Now, if someone could post an (official) description of dovin-basals, we could compare the two.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-08-10 11:22am

My penis projects gravity fields.

I think you need a closer comparison to support the burden of proof that one magic "gravitic" device can yank shields just because the other can.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-10 11:53am

Good for your penis.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-08-10 01:10pm

Yes, indeed.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-08-10 08:55pm

Look, we've already established that interdictors (and tractor beams for that matter) obviously generate insufficient strength to "rip" away shields or affect energy weapons or missiles, since they do not do so in any observed operation. Even were we to assume an interdictor could do so, we know from HTTE that the sheer inertia of a gravity well projector make them extremely unwieldy even as a widely-focused field effect, much less the narrowly projected beam required to "rip" away shields. Any SW vessel worth its salt could easily manage to outrun or outmanuver it.

The worst interdictors do is inhibit the manuverability of starships to varying degrees (much as tractor beams do.) Deal with it.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-11 06:33am

Capital ships. I was talking about capital ships (that don´t seem to be THAT manouverable).

But you are right, i forget about the HttE-quote.

Besides, it wouldn´t have been a war-deciding technology, but a nice addition.