The so called "Zionist lobby" in America

[Supreme_Warlord]

Jewish Press
Editorial, US, August 8
[It has been reported that] the Bush administration ... is preparing to pressure Israel - through a reduction in loan guarantees - to end the construction of the security fence ... The [US] president is still acting as if there were 'road map ' to peace and is even prepared to pressure Israel into following it. It is striking that loan guarantees are the vehicle chosen ... as a means to influence Israeli policy. It will be recalled that the first President Bush and his secretary of state gained the undying enmity of the Jewish community ... for tying loan guarantees to cessation of settlement building. It would be unfortunate in the extreme, especially in the light of the second President Bush 's earlier Middle East policy, for history to repeat itself."

NOTE: Bold and italic highlighting mine.

Source page here.

I can't believe the "Zinoist lobby" in America is allowed to get away with this kind of shit.

[Vympel]

Security fence my ass. They're trying to put a fence around what they percieve as their property, setting a frontier around any prospective Palestinian State before talks even begin. Even Colin Powell can see through that one.

[Stravo]

What I never understood was the virulent support of the whole settlement process I get from other Jews here in the US. Every Jewish freind that I discuss Palestinian relations with can rattle of the litany of greivances they have against the Palestinians but if I bring up the settlement issue I usually either get a strident passionate defense (all bluster and emotion) or from the far more moderates I get a shrug of the shoulders. They KNOW its wrong but they still support it.

[Vympel]

What I never understood was the virulent support of the whole settlement process I get from other Jews here in the US. Every Jewish freind that I discuss Palestinian relations with can rattle of the litany of greivances they have against the Palestinians but if I bring up the settlement issue I usually either get a strident passionate defense (all bluster and emotion) or from the far more moderates I get a shrug of the shoulders. They KNOW its wrong but they still support it.

Nationalism at it's finest: my country, right or wrong. Being Australian it's pretty incomprehensible to me- we haven't done anything controversial in well ... ever, and we don't have any huge spats with any of our neighbours.

[Peregrin Toker]

I'm sure there are Jewish lobby organizations in the USA, but I don't think they're that different from the Christian ones - if we ignore ideological differences.

[RedImperator]

Source page here.

I can't believe the "Zinoist lobby" in America is allowed to get away with this kind of shit.

Freedom of the press. They can say whatever they want. It's not like they're the only aggressive lobby in this country that threatens dire consequences for any politican who opposes them (as far as political strongarming goes, the AARP could teach lessons to John C. Calhoun).

The Zionist lobby gets too much credit, anyway. Jews are a small minority in this country, and they vote almost exclusively Democratic anyway, so it's not like Republicans are worried about losing votes among them if they get tough on Israel. America's relationship with Israel is complicated by a lot of factors--strategic commitments, the fallout from 50 years of Cold War maneuvering in the region, a vocal Christian minority that thinks America will be cast into the firey pit on Judgement Day if it doesn't support Israel, poor public perception of Arabs in the United States, the fact many Israelis are American expats, and some Holocaust guilt thrown in for flavor. The fact is, the majority of the American public is sympathetic to Israel and not sympathetic to the Palestinians (call it good sense or good propaganda, whatever floats your boat), and the American government is much more concerned with that then the supposed all-powerful Jewish lobby.

[Coyote]

[quote="Vympel"]Nationalism at it's finest: my country, right or wrong. Being Australian it's pretty incomprehensible to me- we haven't done anything controversial in well ... ever...[quote]

Having visited a few Aborigine settlement camps and reservations myself, I can see an argument there...


So tell me, folks... why is it that any other group in the United States has the right to lobby for support for their various pet projects, anything from gun control to abortion to wildlife protection to various ethnic groups begging help for their countries.... why is it that these are 'examples of democracy in action' s to speak, but if God Forbid a Jewish lobby does the same thing, then it is all Zionist Conspiracy bullshit.

Jews have as much right to vote with their dollars or write letters urging action one way or another as any other special interest group in America. It is no different than a oil company or a Union advocating activist action to try to influence a governemnt opinion. There are special interest groups out there lobbying for all sorts of shit that I don't like-- and I don't like the Settlements, either.

Why in the hell you people single out this group above any other is beyond me. And you all wonder why so many Jews suspect others of knee-jerk anti-Semitism-- because sometimes it really does come across that way. Do Jews have no right to lobby government on behalf of certain policies?

Wake up and listen to yourselves.

[Stravo]

Coyote, get off your antisemitism high horse. The person who originated this thread DID criticise a Zionist lobby effort, Vympel, myself, RedIMperator were discussing the more disturbing parts of the current Israeli policies. No where did any of our posts mention "Bad Jewish lobby" we were saying "Bad Israeli policy."

If you can't seperate criticsim of the Jewish STATE from the Jewish RACE then you are a prime example of the current disturbing trend to label ANY criticism of the state as anti-semitism.

[Axis Kast]

Judaism isn't a "race". A "Jew" is a member of a religious denomination, not a certain ethnic or racial group.

I understand anger at the hypocrisy of the behavior of the pro-Israeli lobbies and the Israeli State, but Vympel put it best: they are no different from anybody else. A great deal of what we contribute to the "wealthy Jewish institutions" in the United States is actually a result of Cold War thinking and public bias.

[Darth Wong]

Judaism isn't a "race". A "Jew" is a member of a religious denomination, not a certain ethnic or racial group.

It is both. That is why ethnic Jews from anywhere in the world can go to Israel and instantly become citizens.

I understand anger at the hypocrisy of the behavior of the pro-Israeli lobbies and the Israeli State, but Vympel put it best: they are no different from anybody else. A great deal of what we contribute to the "wealthy Jewish institutions" in the United States is actually a result of Cold War thinking and public bias.

I agree that the "wealthy Jewish institution" bit is overblown. The most aggressive backers of the rabid pro-Israel movement are actually the Christian fundies, since the resurgence of Israel is predicted in the Bible as a prerequisite for the Rapture and the end of days (which they look forward to because they're psychopaths who remind me of a cheesy Roger Moore-era James Bond supervillain, literally trying to make doomsday come true).

[Axis Kast]

It is both. That is why ethnic Jews from anywhere in the world can go to Israel and instantly become citizens.

No, it is not both.

"Ethnic Jew" in Israeli terms is: "Somebody with two Jewish parents." It's a strictly religious issue.

[MKSheppard]

(which they look forward to because they're psychopaths who remind me of a cheesy Roger Moore-era James Bond supervillain, literally trying to make doomsday come true).

Not to Hijack this thread, but I loved Roger Moore Era Bond.

[Sea Skimmer]

Security fence my ass. They're trying to put a fence around what they percieve as their property, setting a frontier around any prospective Palestinian State before talks even begin. Even Colin Powell can see through that one.

Its better then what they'd really like, which would be a series of rings of such walls around about twenty Palestinian enclaves.

[Xenophobe3691]

It is both. That is why ethnic Jews from anywhere in the world can go to Israel and instantly become citizens.

Wrong, proven converts have the same right.

[Axis Kast]

Indeed. Hence why the "ethnic" argument is incorrect.

[Darth Wong]

It is both. That is why ethnic Jews from anywhere in the world can go to Israel and instantly become citizens.

Wrong, proven converts have the same right.

Thus proving my point that Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion, dumb-ass. If it was not an ethnicity, then documented proof of religious conversion would be the only way to get this privilege.

[Axis Kast]

Judaism is not an ethnicity despite your feverish clinging to the contrary, Wong.

"Ethnic Jews" are simply those with Jewish parents or grandparents. It is actually irrelevant that they can often trace their origins back to Israel proper, though that helps form the misconception.

[Darth Wong]

Judaism is not an ethnicity despite your feverish clinging to the contrary, Wong.

"Ethnic Jews" are simply those with Jewish parents or grandparents. It is actually irrelevant that they can often trace their origins back to Israel proper, though that helps form the misconception.

How can you hear with your fingers jammed in your ears while your head is shoved up your own ass, Kast?

How the fuck can someone be "ethnic Jew" by fucking inheritance if it's just a religion and ethnicity does not enter into it?

[Stravo]

Judaism is not an ethnicity despite your feverish clinging to the contrary, Wong.

"Ethnic Jews" are simply those with Jewish parents or grandparents. It is actually irrelevant that they can often trace their origins back to Israel proper, though that helps form the misconception.

How can you hear with your fingers jammed in your ears while your head is shoved up your own ass, Kast?

How the fuck can someone be "ethnic Jew" by fucking inheritance if it's just a religion and ethnicity does not enter into it?

Mike I suggest you fax him a scan of this argument and the laws of Judaic inheritance (you know you're a Jew if you're mom is a Jew whether you like it or not) but wait....Kast may not believe you because we tend to bullshit and lie on the Internet.

[Axis Kast]

How the fuck can someone be "ethnic Jew" by fucking inheritance if it's just a religion and ethnicity does not enter into it?

Because the question of ethnicity is itself erroneous, Mike. The term "ethnic Jew" really means "somebody with Jewish parents or grandparents".

Israel determines Jews solely on the basis of the religious affiliation of their ancestors, not their national origin.

The point here is that Judaism is not a nationality. It is however most often confused with the term, "Israeli". I can be a German-American, an Italian-American, or a Swiss-American. I cannot be a Jewish-American from the point of view of national origin. I can only be Israeli.

Mike I suggest you fax him a scan of this argument and the laws of Judaic inheritance (you know you're a Jew if you're mom is a Jew whether you like it or not) but wait.

Great job. You've just sealed my argument. Judaic law works off of the theory that your mother is the determining factor behind your "true" religious affiliation at birth.

[Xenophobe3691]

Mike I suggest you fax him a scan of this argument and the laws of Judaic inheritance (you know you're a Jew if you're mom is a Jew whether you like it or not) but wait....Kast may not believe you because we tend to bullshit and lie on the Internet.

My mother's mother was born a Roman Catholic, and died a Roman Catholic. Her name was Regina Paniagua. My mother was born a Roman Catholic, and CONVERTED to Judaism. She now has the SAME RIGHTS for citizenship that my father, a native born Jew, has.

How can you hear with your fingers jammed in your ears while your head is shoved up your own ass, Kast?

How the fuck can someone be "ethnic Jew" by fucking inheritance if it's just a religion and ethnicity does not enter into it?

The inheritance does not make you an "ethnic Jew." It just proves claims that you are Jewish, since you have no other religiously sound method of determining it. By the same token, if you're proven to have converted out, as a certain Priest did, you lose this same right.

[Supreme_Warlord]

.......So tell me, folks... why is it that any other group in the United States has the right to lobby for support for their various pet projects, anything from gun control to abortion to wildlife protection to various ethnic groups begging help for their countries.... why is it that these are 'examples of democracy in action' s to speak, but if God Forbid a Jewish lobby does the same thing, then it is all Zionist Conspiracy bullshit.

Read through the entire page that I listed as the source, read through the entirety of my starting post and everyone else's before yours and point out one instance of where the words Zionist conspiracy are mentioned. ....... Can't, can you?

Why in the hell you people single out this group above any other is beyond me. And you all wonder why so many Jews suspect others of knee-jerk anti-Semitism-- because sometimes it really does come across that way. Do Jews have no right to lobby government on behalf of certain policies?

Expect to be treated as you treat others. You are the kind of pathetic loser who huffs and puffs and screams anti-Semitism about ANY criticism of Israel (note the use of the word Israel and not Jew). And you accuse others of knee-jerk reactions? If Israel was inextricably intertwined with Judaism, why is the movement to conquer Palestine called Zionism? To most of us, the two (Zionism and Judaism) are seperate things. Its your buddies over in the Promised Land who fail to draw a distinction between the two. Why do you think Israel lacks a constitution? Could it be that a constitution would grant ALL its citizens equal rights? Face it, Israel as it exists today is a sister model to South African apartheid.

[Xenophobe3691]

Why in the hell you people single out this group above any other is beyond me. And you all wonder why so many Jews suspect others of knee-jerk anti-Semitism-- because sometimes it really does come across that way. Do Jews have no right to lobby government on behalf of certain policies?

Expect to be treated as you treat others. You are the kind of pathetic loser who huffs and puffs and screams anti-Semitism about ANY criticism of Israel (note the use of the word Israel and not Jew). And you accuse others of knee-jerk reactions? If Israel was inextricably intertwined with Judaism, why is the movement to conquer Palestine called Zionism? To most of us, the two (Zionism and Judaism) are seperate things. Its your buddies over in the Promised Land who fail to draw a distinction between the two. Why do you think Israel lacks a constitution? Could it be that a constitution would grant ALL its citizens equal rights? Face it, Israel as it exists today is a sister model to South African apartheid.

England doesn't have a constitution either, dumb fuck. Does that mean that they're also a racist apartheid state? THINK!

Oh, and where in the definition of Zionism does it mention the conquering of Palestine?!? The Definition of Zionism at Dictionary.com is:

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

Learn about the subject before you decide to deride and poke fun at it, good sir. You're the first person I've ever seen to even CONSIDER Zionism as a conquering force.

[Peregrin Toker]

The inheritance does not make you an "ethnic Jew." It just proves claims that you are Jewish, since you have no other religiously sound method of determining it. By the same token, if you're proven to have converted out, as a certain Priest did, you lose this same right.

There is another method of determining it, which is whether you are a practicising and believing jew.

[Drooling Iguana]

England doesn't have a constitution either, dumb fuck. Does that mean that they're also a racist apartheid state? THINK!

The fact that Israel doesn't have a constitution doesn't make it a racist apartheid state. The fact that Israel is a racist apartheid state means that it cannot have a constitution.

Oh, and where in the definition of Zionism does it mention the conquering of Palestine?!? The Definition of Zionism at Dictionary.com is:

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

Have you read the definition you quoted?