Is proportional representation undemocratic?

[Dahak]

Incidentally, the increased "personalization" of elections is seen by many analysts as the ultimate downfall of German politics...

Elections are always about people.

In the US maybe, but not here. At least not to a huge degree. On the local level, it may be true. But in the great picture, it's about parties, not individuals.
Many people just elect the party because their ideas are what they can connect to the best, regardless what candidate there is.
That *is* a fundamental difference you haven't yet completely understood...

What you need to be worried about is a collapse of the balance of powers--that happened here when the Seventeenth Amendment passed and the Senate became an elected rather than appointed body. I think the House is fine as it is (or should be even more democratic with the addition of a recall mechanism) ; but we hardly need a democratic Senate, rather one that definitely responds to the Federal Republic aspect of our system.

You may be in better shape than we are if your balance of powers is intact, depending on the organization of your constitution to begin with. Of course, you've had it for less time--and thus, less time to decay.

Well, the consitiution was made with the Nazi regime still in mind. It has been so cemented, that it allows basically for zero movement, anywhere.

Fixed formatting ~ Crown

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Sorry Duchess you are wrong. While the EU Parliament does work on a proportional representation system, this doesn't directly translate to no voting for a person as apposed to a party. Britain voted for the first time for the EU parliament under a proportional representation system 10th June 1999, under the European Parliamentary Elections Act which states;

3. - (1) The system of election in an electoral region in Great Britain shall be a regional list system complying with the following conditions.

(2) A vote may be cast for a registered party, or an individual candidate, named on the ballot paper.

(3) The first seat shall be allocated to the party or individual candidate with the greatest number of votes.

(4) The second and subsequent seats shall be allocated in the same way, except that the number of votes given to a party to which one or more seats have already been allocated shall be divided by the number of seats allocated plus one.

Should the individual win, then he/she may sit in the EU parliament as a Non-Attached MEP.

How the proportional representation system works in relation to a party is that the party appoints the person they want to hold the seat. However if someone actually votes for a party (which in Europe carries a meaning as stated by Darkling above), then the appointed party member will vote and carry out the ideologies that the party stands for. So I see no reason to call this un-democratic, in any sense of the word.

Uhm. That explanation is honestly as confusing as hell. The way I understood proportional representation:

There was a list of parties. Each party had a vague "list of candidates" thing. When you went to the polls you voted for the party. Based on the percentage of the electorate each party got, they were assigned a percentage of the seats in the parliament in question. Each party, of course, had a list sufficient to cover all of the seats in the parliament in theory. Based on their percentage, then, each party would draw names from the list based on their own internal party process and send those people to parliament to represent their percentage of seats.

That's how I thought PR worked. Now as far as I can tell there are at least four different things everyone calls "PR" and the one used for the EU has managed to do the very rare thing in politics of completely confuse me, which even the Roman Republic's government cannot do.

So in essense, it's much like the appointment of the EU Commision. The most un-democratic institution in the EU. Thankyou for proving my point.

It's not supposed to be democratic. We are a republic, after all. My concern with PR is that it is apparently the only system used in many countries. My ideal is a combination of direct voting combined with outright appointment by the federal states--balance of powers is critical. That's why I actually approve of Germany; they balance the two.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Okay, I think I've got it now, though honestly I'd sooner live in something that exactly copies the Roman system than the EU--easier to drive to a giant stadium and show your hand on important issues and vote according to tribes for elected officials, I'll bloody swear.

Anyway, the one thing that still leaves me wondering "How does it work" about the EU Parliament:

What is the size limit on Party Lists, and how are they created/submitted? It doesn't appear to be covered.

[Crown]

[ Uhm. That explanation is honestly as confusing as hell. The way I understood proportional representation:

There was a list of parties. Each party had a vague "list of candidates" thing. When you went to the polls you voted for the party. Based on the percentage of the electorate each party got, they were assigned a percentage of the seats in the parliament in question. Each party, of course, had a list sufficient to cover all of the seats in the parliament in theory. Based on their percentage, then, each party would draw names from the list based on their own internal party process and send those people to parliament to represent their percentage of seats.

That's how I thought PR worked. Now as far as I can tell there are at least four different things everyone calls "PR" and the one used for the EU has managed to do the very rare thing in politics of completely confuse me, which even the Roman Republic's government cannot do.

No you are generally right as far as I can understand, for a quick explanation go here for how it works in Britain. I included the European Parliamentary Elections Act to show that it is not restricted to parties only, that's all.

It's not supposed to be democratic. We are a republic, after all. My concern with PR is that it is apparently the only system used in many countries. My ideal is a combination of direct voting combined with outright appointment by the federal states--balance of powers is critical. That's why I actually approve of Germany; they balance the two.

Yes. However in the EU you have PR (the EU Parliament), direct voting (the EU Council) depending on the electorial system of the member states, and Republic appointment (the EU Commision). The least democratic is the last one, obviously.

[Crown]

Okay, I think I've got it now, though honestly I'd sooner live in something that exactly copies the Roman system than the EU--easier to drive to a giant stadium and show your hand on important issues and vote according to tribes for elected officials, I'll bloody swear.

Anyway, the one thing that still leaves me wondering "How does it work" about the EU Parliament:

What is the size limit on Party Lists, and how are they created/submitted? It doesn't appear to be covered.

Go here: Formation of political groups for that answer.

[Dahak]

Okay, I think I've got it now, though honestly I'd sooner live in something that exactly copies the Roman system than the EU--easier to drive to a giant stadium and show your hand on important issues and vote according to tribes for elected officials, I'll bloody swear.

Anyway, the one thing that still leaves me wondering "How does it work" about the EU Parliament:

What is the size limit on Party Lists, and how are they created/submitted? It doesn't appear to be covered.

Again, I only can speak for Germany, but lists are probably the same everywhere.
A lists covers the maximum numbers of seats possible. An unlikely assumption, but one never knows
The list slots on top of the list are the highest likely to get a seat, with each slot you go down, the less likely it is that the person will get a seat.
The lists are created in the parties, where every list slot is given to a person. Those lists have to be voted for by the party assembly to actually become the real list.
There's always quite a juggling going on, to get someone as high as possible on the list.

[Crown]

To stop me from posting just snippets I might aswell give you the whole damn thing regarding to the Rules of the EU Parliament, which can be found here.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

A lists covers the maximum numbers of seats possible. An unlikely assumption, but one never knows
The list slots on top of the list are the highest likely to get a seat, with each slot you go down, the less likely it is that the person will get a seat.
The lists are created in the parties, where every list slot is given to a person. Those lists have to be voted for by the party assembly to actually become the real list.
There's always quite a juggling going on, to get someone as high as possible on the list.

Okay. How are people on the list assigned to seats in the parliament, then?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

To stop me from posting just snippets I might aswell give you the whole damn thing regarding to the Rules of the EU Parliament, which can be found

I may or may not attempt to read through that monstrousity; I may think on glancing at what I've seen so far of the European Parliament, however, that it is perhaps not a poster-child for the PR system..?

[Dahak]

A lists covers the maximum numbers of seats possible. An unlikely assumption, but one never knows
The list slots on top of the list are the highest likely to get a seat, with each slot you go down, the less likely it is that the person will get a seat.
The lists are created in the parties, where every list slot is given to a person. Those lists have to be voted for by the party assembly to actually become the real list.
There's always quite a juggling going on, to get someone as high as possible on the list.

Okay. How are people on the list assigned to seats in the parliament, then?

As they appear on the list...
If your party gets 120 seats, the first 120 on the list get a seat.

[Crown]

To stop me from posting just snippets I might aswell give you the whole damn thing regarding to the Rules of the EU Parliament, which can be found

I may or may not attempt to read through that monstrousity; I may think on glancing at what I've seen so far of the European Parliament, however, that it is perhaps not a poster-child for the PR system..?

At this point darling, I have forgotten my own name!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

As they appear on the list...
If your party gets 120 seats, the first 120 on the list get a seat.

Hrmm. That still seems rather arbitrary, though I grant in your system that it is balanced.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

At this point darling, I have forgotten my own name!

Well, you see, one reason why I thought, "hey, you know, this seems a bit fishy," over the whole thing, is because one of my fictional governments I've invented an entirely new system of government for--which is actually at first superficially similiar to PR (at least to the American mind). In the elections for the Chamber of Deputies in this government, there is an election cycle with three different elections:


First you simply vote for parties. Then you have a runoff with all the parties that got more than 5% of the vote nationally in the first election. The party which wins the runoff in your particular district then must submit a list of at least six candidates, where during the third election, the people of each district--all the people, even those who might have voted for another party--choose which of those six or more candidates of the party which won their district, they want to represent their district.

Clever, eh?

So that, I confess, was the standard I was judging PR by. Basically I asked Debi "So, what's voting for the European Parliament like?" And then wondered why you apparently could not choose the person who represented you, which to an American really does appear quite outrageous--and, I do contend, is at the least far less responsive to the individual than our system, at any rate.

[NecronLord]

Okay, I think I've got it now, though honestly I'd sooner live in something that exactly copies the Roman system than the EU--easier to drive to a giant stadium and show your hand on important issues and vote according to tribes for elected officials, I'll bloody swear.

You'd need a helluva big stadium. Or a virtual one (which could be hacked)

Prehaps you could disenfranchise people that don't get into the stadium first?

[Crown]

Well, you see, one reason why I thought, "hey, you know, this seems a bit fishy," over the whole thing, is because one of my fictional governments I've invented an entirely new system of government for--which is actually at first superficially similiar to PR (at least to the American mind). In the elections for the Chamber of Deputies in this government, there is an election cycle with three different elections:


First you simply vote for parties. Then you have a runoff with all the parties that got more than 5% of the vote nationally in the first election. The party which wins the runoff in your particular district then must submit a list of at least six candidates, where during the third election, the people of each district--all the people, even those who might have voted for another party--choose which of those six or more candidates of the party which won their district, they want to represent their district.

Clever, eh?

So that, I confess, was the standard I was judging PR by. Basically I asked Debi "So, what's voting for the European Parliament like?" And then wondered why you apparently could not choose the person who represented you, which to an American really does appear quite outrageous--and, I do contend, is at the least far less responsive to the individual than our system, at any rate.

*blink*
Fire bad. Tree pretty.
*blink*


Hmmm, a new fanfic to grace our wonderful board with? Excellent!

I agree, though, not being able to choose the person you vote for is interesting however when you view it through the sense of party loyalty, then one politician is just about as good as another if they are following party lines.

I mean you see that right? For us, each party represents a certain ideology, (radical socialism, liberal, conservative, etc) and we know that no matter who sits in parliament, if they belong to a certain party you are about 90% guaranteed that it would be towing the party line.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

You'd need a helluva big stadium. Or a virtual one (which could be hacked)

Prehaps you could disenfranchise people that don't get into the stadium first?

Well, at least it would make football riots meaningful!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Hmmm, a new fanfic to grace our wonderful board with? Excellent!

Possibly, possibly... And soon, too.

I agree, though, not being able to choose the person you vote for is interesting however when you view it through the sense of party loyalty, then one politician is just about as good as another if they are following party lines.

I mean you see that right? For us, each party represents a certain ideology, (radical socialism, liberal, conservative, etc) and we know that no matter who sits in parliament, if they belong to a certain party you are about 90% guaranteed that it would be towing the party line.

Yes, that is understandable one supposes--I believe I said here recently that both the Democrats and the Republicans would be worth about 12-15 parties each in a European PR systems. Heck, they're even officially named "Committees" not parties on the national level.

[Crown]

You'd need a helluva big stadium. Or a virtual one (which could be hacked)

Prehaps you could disenfranchise people that don't get into the stadium first?

Well, at least it would make football riots meaningful!

Football riots always have meaning.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Football riots always have meaning.

Spoken like a true and loyal son of the Empire.

[Crown]

Hmmm, a new fanfic to grace our wonderful board with? Excellent!

Possibly, possibly... And soon, too.

Then I am happy!

I agree, though, not being able to choose the person you vote for is interesting however when you view it through the sense of party loyalty, then one politician is just about as good as another if they are following party lines.

I mean you see that right? For us, each party represents a certain ideology, (radical socialism, liberal, conservative, etc) and we know that no matter who sits in parliament, if they belong to a certain party you are about 90% guaranteed that it would be towing the party line.

Yes, that is understandable one supposes--I believe I said here recently that both the Democrats and the Republicans would be worth about 12-15 parties each in a European PR systems. Heck, they're even officially named "Committees" not parties on the national level.

Indeed you did.

[NecronLord]

You'd need a helluva big stadium. Or a virtual one (which could be hacked)

Prehaps you could disenfranchise people that don't get into the stadium first?

Well, at least it would make football riots meaningful!

What happens, is there's a bell on top of the stadium, which is rung by the speaker. Obviously property prices near the staduim would increase massively, letting plutocracy in by the back door.

And the true meaning of football riots is:

WHY CAN'T WE WIN AT OUR NATIONAL SPORT. LETS TAKE IT OUT ON THESE LOCALS!

[phongn]

Well, you see, one reason why I thought, "hey, you know, this seems a bit fishy," over the whole thing, is because one of my fictional governments I've invented an entirely new system of government for--which is actually at first superficially similiar to PR (at least to the American mind). In the elections for the Chamber of Deputies in this government, there is an election cycle with three different elections:

Is that your OSE or is it a different one?