An all knowing god and free will

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-08-10 12:50am

I heard a group of atheists once saying that there is a problem with an all knowing god and free will, that you can't have free will with an all knowing god, I don't see how this works however, so suppose God knows everything that will ever happen, just because he knows doesn't mean he made you do what you did, you were free to do whatever you wanted, he just knew what would choose to do.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-08-10 12:53am

logically, an all knowing god would have to be infinite in his knowledge, so he could know all possible choices made by people. its only an infinite number of possible choices, and infinite is infinity whether its infinity infinities or one infinity.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-08-10 01:25am

Shrykull wrote:I heard a group of atheists once saying that there is a problem with an all knowing god and free will, that you can't have free will with an all knowing god, I don't see how this works however, so suppose God knows everything that will ever happen, just because he knows doesn't mean he made you do what you did, you were free to do whatever you wanted, he just knew what would choose to do.

If he knew what you would choose and also created you, he created you to choose what he knew you would. Case closed.

Hethrir · Post by **Hethrir** » 2003-08-10 07:58am

I disagree. If you have a dog, you know that if it sees a cat it will run after it; if it sees a bone, it will chew it. If you have known someone your whole life, you can often look at them and know what they are thinking, and even finish sentences etc... The same with God. He knows us well, and knows what we will do, however we have a choice.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-08-10 09:56pm

Hethrir wrote: He knows us well, and knows what we will do, however we have a choice.

If he knows what you WILL DO, then there isn't much of a choice.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-08-10 10:44pm

Difficult, if not impossible to explain, since we are bound by the physical universe and time. As I see it, God created both, including the laws which govern both. A very weak analogy might be a simulated world within a computer. The laws which govern existence within that world are determined by the programmer, yet the programmer isn't bound by the laws governing the simulations in the computer. Moreover, he can program the sims to go about tasks, giving them free-will (won't go into the sticky discussion of the definition of "free-will"), yet from time to time he can manipulate the environment or even the sims to his own design. I say that is a weak analogy, because both the programmer and the computer exist in the physical world, and the programmer is limited as to what intelligence and "free-will" he can ascribe to the sims, while God exists as spirit while able to manipulate both the physical realm and time without our detection.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-08-10 10:50pm

I really feel these 'free will' discussions are pointless. Let's say tommorrow we prove free will does not exist, how would that change your life? What would you do different?

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-08-10 11:12pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:I really feel these 'free will' discussions are pointless. Let's say tommorrow we prove free will does not exist, how would that change your life? What would you do different?

It feels a bit pointless to live if you think that your future was determined before you could make it, and were up the creek when it comes to changing it.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-08-10 11:58pm

bah we dont even HAVE free will, if someone knew all our genetic/mental pre-dispositions and all the life experiences up to the point of our decision, they could perfectly accurately predict our choice (they would also have to know the exact chemical balances in the brain and in the blood stream, ect. but if someone knew all that data right before we chose, they could predict our choice)

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-08-11 12:08am

Difficult, if not impossible to explain, since we are bound by the physical universe and time.

So is God when interacting with our world. If Genesis tells us a grain of truth, it's that it took time to create the world.

A very weak analogy might be a simulated world within a computer. The laws which govern existence within that world are determined by the programmer, yet the programmer isn't bound by the laws governing the simulations in the computer. Moreover, he can program the sims to go about tasks, giving them free-will (won't go into the sticky discussion of the definition of "free-will"), yet from time to time he can manipulate the environment or even the sims to his own design.

Sorry, that isn't free will. Most of what that analogy discussed was God's omnipotence. A better analogy would be:

"We are equations in a calculator which God is playing with. Although he can change with the problem, he always knows how the numbers will add up."

That covers both omnipotence and omniscience in relation to each other, I think. May I also note that the Bible does not talk about "God's The Sims game."

As Wicked Pilot noted, why does the idea that God didn't give you free will bother you?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-08-11 12:19am

StarshipTitanic wrote:As Wicked Pilot noted, why does the idea that God didn't give you free will bother you?

The idea doesn't particularly bother me; I just disagree with it. The following verse clearly defines a choice, which seems to account for free-will:

John 3:16-18
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
(NIV)

To be certain, there are many in the Christian community who believe in a doctrine known as "Predestination," and they claim that God chose who would and would not be saved before the beginning of time. While I do not deny God's foreknowledge of those who would choose to believe in Jesus, I don't think that is the same thing as the theory that he picked and chose. The above passage does not seem to suggest it.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-08-11 01:03am

what part of John 3:16 states that god gave us a choice whether we would belive in him or not? It seems that he could decide who is going to believe in his son ahead of time, just for fun, so that the world isnt all monotonous and all.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-08-11 01:28am

NapoleonGH wrote:what part of John 3:16 states that god gave us a choice whether we would belive in him or not? It seems that he could decide who is going to believe in his son ahead of time, just for fun, so that the world isnt all monotonous and all.

One can read it that way; I choose not to. Those who believe in the doctrine of Predestination would also agree with you.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2003-08-11 01:31am

An all knowing god, one who knows what everyone is going to do, implies fate, and the principal of fate comes in direct contradition with free will. That is probably what those atheists meant.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-08-11 01:40am

jegs2 wrote:
NapoleonGH wrote:what part of John 3:16 states that god gave us a choice whether we would belive in him or not? It seems that he could decide who is going to believe in his son ahead of time, just for fun, so that the world isnt all monotonous and all.
One can read it that way; I choose not to. Those who believe in the doctrine of Predestination would also agree with you.

ohh no im sorry i was trying to find out why you think that that passage indicates that there is freewill necessarily rather than that other way of reading it. I mean what is the reasoning behind you deciding that what is said there means that god gives us a choice, as opposed to not?

also i ask you, from your point of view, then do you admit that god isnt all knowing, because he doesnt know whether or not someone will choose to believe in him or not (if he does know whether someone will choose to believe in him that measn that that choice is set in stone thus it is determinism rather than freewill that reigns supreme)

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-08-11 02:52am

NapoleonGH wrote: ohh no im sorry i was trying to find out why you think that that passage indicates that there is freewill necessarily rather than that other way of reading it. I mean what is the reasoning behind you deciding that what is said there means that god gives us a choice, as opposed to not?

Belief is a choice, or so I see it -- you can choose to believe or choose not to believe. The passage indicates that one must make a choice and then points out the result of that choice.

also i ask you, from your point of view, then do you admit that god isnt all knowing, because he doesnt know whether or not someone will choose to believe in him or not (if he does know whether someone will choose to believe in him that measn that that choice is set in stone thus it is determinism rather than freewill that reigns supreme)

Don't think that affects God's knowledge of all things. The following passages speak of the foreknowledge of God:

Acts 2:22-23
"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
(NIV)

Speaking to the prophet Jeremiah, we see the following:

Jer 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
(NIV)

That speaks of God's relation to time, which can also be described as the following:

God is timeless, and therefore outside of time. If God is 'outside' time, it means He sees the past, present and future at the same 'time'1. Peter Vardy, the Catholic writer of many useful books, provides the analogy of God sitting on a mountain, looking down on the stream of time, seeing the mouth and the source all at once. Time doesn't pass for God because all time is present to God simultaneously.

The article goes on to point out that if God knows all -- past, present and future, then how does free-will come into play at all? Well this does a better job of describing it than I could:

Boethius tried to address this problem. He was a consul in ancient Rome, and wrote the Consolation of Philosophy, while in prison. He created a character, the 'Lady Philosophy', to strike up a dialogue for his book. He put to the Lady, that God knows everything, and therefore He knows humanity's future actions, and thus we aren't free. The Lady Philosophy responds that he is mistaken. God does timelessly know what happens in the future, but this knowledge is not causal. God sees our future free actions, but what He sees is the result of our freedom - God doesn't cause us to act in a particular manner.

Therefore, God knows all human actions, past, present, and future, without taking away human freedom. Our free actions are what God sees, yet His knowledge doesn't cause us to act in one way or another.

The following is what those who ascribe to the doctrine of Predestination quote in support of their claim that God chooses our fate, absent of free-will:

1 Thes 1:4
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.
(NIV)

One can still ascribe to the belief in choice (pointed out in John 3:16 - 18), by maintaining that God chose those he foreknew would believe in Jesus.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-08-11 11:27am

If he can see what our actions will be with certainty then what choice we will make is set in stone, thus it isnt a choice at all, but qualifies under a deterministic model

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-08-11 04:05pm

If God never entered our plane of existance, it would make "sense," jegs. But the fact that he did to:

1) Create everything.
2) Talk to various people.

shows that when God interacts with our plane, he simply MUST follow the rules of time (or we wouldn't be able to understand him). He can sit on the mountain and watch the river all he wants and not interfere, but remember he started the river and planned it's route at the beginning.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-08-11 04:34pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:If God never entered our plane of existance, it would make "sense," jegs. But the fact that he did to:

1) Create everything.
2) Talk to various people.

shows that when God interacts with our plane, he simply MUST follow the rules of time (or we wouldn't be able to understand him). He can sit on the mountain and watch the river all he wants and not interfere, but remember he started the river and planned it's route at the beginning.

Rivers change, overflow their banks, build up deposits on one side, undercut the bank on another. Rivers form wide meanders, that eventually cut off into "OxBow Lakes". Outside forces, like rockfalls or the glaciers of the last IceAge block the old path, and the river is forced to either dam up, or find a new path.

Simply because He set the first course, doesn't mean we can't take detour.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-08-11 04:40pm

LadyTevar wrote:
StarshipTitanic wrote:If God never entered our plane of existance, it would make "sense," jegs. But the fact that he did to:

1) Create everything.
2) Talk to various people.

shows that when God interacts with our plane, he simply MUST follow the rules of time (or we wouldn't be able to understand him). He can sit on the mountain and watch the river all he wants and not interfere, but remember he started the river and planned it's route at the beginning.
Rivers change, overflow their banks, build up deposits on one side, undercut the bank on another. Rivers form wide meanders, that eventually cut off into "OxBow Lakes". Outside forces, like rockfalls or the glaciers of the last IceAge block the old path, and the river is forced to either dam up, or find a new path.

Simply because He set the first course, doesn't mean we can't take detour.

Are you suggesting that God wasn't aware of how his river would mature?

Outside influences? There's another outside influence other than God?!

TheAtheistKing · Post by **TheAtheistKing** » 2003-08-11 04:41pm

Shrykull wrote:I heard a group of atheists once saying that there is a problem with an all knowing god and free will, that you can't have free will with an all knowing god, I don't see how this works however, so suppose God knows everything that will ever happen, just because he knows doesn't mean he made you do what you did, you were free to do whatever you wanted, he just knew what would choose to do.

I have read through this whole thread, most of the responses used the word 'choice' quite liberally, and I could tell that the users of that specific word do not have a definition of it. I now challenge everyone in this thread who used the word 'choice' to define that word in a meaningful way. I anticipate that all of you will fail.
There was one person who answered intelligently, they said more or less if god knows the single choice you will make at any moment in your life, then you don't have much of a choice. This would be exactly my point.

Now, here are the facts of reality:

1. not (god exists).
2. No one has free will.

Any argument to the contrary will contain at least one error.

The last thing I have to say is addressed to the first post in this thread. You are totally confused about free will.

Let me explain those atheist's position to you.

Suppose that god is omniscient. That means that god knows anything which can be known. Additionally assume that there is only one possible future. It therefore follows that god knows what will happen at each moment in time, even before something happens. The atheists you talked to meant exactly this: If something actually does know the future, then there is only one future, because if there was more than one possible future, what will occur tomorrow is in principle unknowable by all beings including god. That is what they meant.

Now your idea that you are free because you can choose to do something contains the hidden assumption that at any step of the way, there is more than one possible choice you can make, at some specific moment in time.

You come to a fork in a road. You can go left or you can go right. In your mind you believe you have two choices, and which path you will take is up to you, and you believe have the free will to choose to go left, and the free will to choose to go right. In reality you only have ONE choice, because you don't have free will, as I have proven in another thread.

You simply are unaware of that fact.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-11 04:47pm

TheAtheistKing wrote:You come to a fork in a road. You can go left or you can go right. In your mind you believe you have two choices, and which path you will take is up to you, and you believe have the free will to choose to go left, and the free will to choose to go right.

You are free to choose either path in this scenario. The argument against free will is normally based on the definition of free will as a choice totally devoid of influence, even if that influence is you (thus making it impossible through definition), although I dispute that particular definition as sophistry. In any case, your alternate method of disproving free will (trying to prove that the future is absolutely fixed, and that there is no randomness in the universe) is bullshit, particularly given your circular so-called "proof".

In reality you only have ONE choice, because you don't have free will, as I have proven in another thread.

You haven't proven anything in the other thread except for your own delusional state, in which you claim to have singlehandedly found a solution to unified field theory and disproven Einsteinian relativity on your way to a Nobel prize. If any of that is true, then perhaps you could reveal your identity, since you are about to become world-famous anyway, hmmmm?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-08-11 04:49pm

Would one of hte local mods please remove the retards attempt to perform a thread hijack by restating his disproven 'no free will' tripe? It should fit nicely in the HOS.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-08-11 05:23pm

Sektor31 wrote:It feels a bit pointless to live if you think that your future was determined before you could make it, and were up the creek when it comes to changing it.

People in third world countries face that situation in reality all the time, yet not all of them go and kill themselves because they feel their lives are pointless.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-08-11 05:49pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:Are you suggesting that God wasn't aware of how his river would mature?

He might not care. I can write a computer program and run it and watch how it runs when everything interacts together.

Sure, I could step through and run all the calculations by hand and find out exactly what would happen. That doesn't mean I will when I can just run the program and watch it work.

God could very well do the same thing, except on a far, far grander scale. Sure, He could find out everything, but that doesn't mean He will except for what He wants or needs to know.

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