ISD vs GH scenario

[Alyeska]

If "sections" of the ISDs shields can be taken down, then I would think the massed fire and relatively accurate missiles from a GHC should be able to do this.

Temporarly taken down, and thats still 2400 Giga-tons to do it

Which is 2,400,000/100= 2,400 missles and you have 2 seconds to do it

Nope still not enoug

Are you saying the Kaloth Battlecruiser can fire 2400 gigatons in a few seconds?

And IIRC a GHC can fire over a thousand missiles in a single second.

[Mr Bean]

And IIRC a GHC can fire over a thousand missiles in a single second.

Realy? 320 a second is what I heard

Are you saying the Kaloth Battlecruiser can fire 2400 gigatons in a few seconds

And 12 HTLsx 200 GTs=2,400 Giga-tons

[Renewed_Valour1]

Nebulon-B Frigate has 12 Turbo lasers and if they all score a hit on a single section of shields they may have caused a temporary shield breach... I can see it breach a section of an ISD

Assuming it was able to maneuver to allow every single Quad TL to fire and that every single shot landed on the same shield section.

[Renewed_Valour1]

And IIRC a GHC can fire over a thousand missiles in a single second.

Wrong ship.... The DSX Siege Perilous II Destroyers could salvo something like 1,400 to 1,500 missiles a second.

With her fighter wing a GHC could salvo darn close to 1,000 in her first second salvo.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Harmzuay, the Kaloth-class battlecruiser in I, Jedi, was highlighted in Galaxy Guide 9. It was listed as having 44 turbolasers and 24 laser cannons, as well as 2 tractor beams. Reputedly modified to be even a close match for VSD's in terms of firepower.

In I,Jedi (page 352, the page where the Harmzuay got off the first salvo) it did not knock down a section of shields, or at least such was never mentioned. Only a few shots actually penetrated, and those that did were less damaging than an X-wing strafing run (implying insignificant damage as a result from shield absorption.)

For the record, the Acclamtor's guns appear to most resemble in size and capacity MTLs (being ~10 meters per side, about the same for the 60 TLs on the ISD-1and 2), whereas HTLs on an ISD-1 are more than 50 meters in diameter. the 200 GT figure applies to the Acclamator's guns as MTLs, not HTLs.

[omegaLancer]

First didnot the PM dump both her slip steam core to destroy the planet.. I remember Harper finding both Cores missing...

Also we donot know the exact size of the planet destroy, so the exact amoung of energy released is unknown so how can you say that it is as powerful as the Deathstar...

The fact is that The andromeda AG would also be hampered from the interaction of AG fields of the SD so it without a Force field it would most likely be the one that take the worst of the Damage especially it will be at ground zero when the blast goes off..

[omegaLancer]

from the SW commentaries:

In one fatal chase in the vicinity of a black hole [Starfire Rising, Marvel SW #54], a star destroyer proved its upper limit of sublight acceleration tolerance. When the differential of gravitational forces across the ship's length exceeded some millions of G, the ship broke apart. This is roughly equivalent to the engines producing an acceleration of several million G, with the inertial compensators attempting to distribute the force consistently across the vessel, to maintain structural integrity..

Second case from Mike wong site:

In a particular incident in the novel Rebel Dawn, Salla Zend attempted a foolishly dangerous hyperspace microjump through the Maw, a star cluster full of black holes, neutron stars, and a few scattered main sequence star. She was violently pulled back to realspace by coming too close to a neutron star, and her ship was badly damaged as a result. When Han Solo located her on his sensors, she was orbiting the neutron star at an altitude of 1000km, although the eccentricity of this orbit is not known. It was known that she would fly into the neutron star's accretion disc in minutes, and that this would have been fatal.
Han Solo flew the Millenium Falcon into the neutron star's gravity well to intercept her ship, the Rimrunner. When he approached, he slowed down to match speeds with her ship, which was still travelling at the same speed that it had before it entered hyperspace. He rescued her, changed course to avoid flying into the accretion disc, and then accelerated out of the neutron star's gravity well.

The acceleration of gravity at that proximity to a neutron star is on the order of 20 million g's

That right 20 million G's.. So any tidal force generated must exceed 20 million G.....

Showing the AG abilities of Star war vessel not only meet those of the common well but exceed it.

. The Thrust factor of 5000 G is due to the propulsion methods, since unlike Common wealth no mass lighting technology is used..

[Connor MacLeod]

<points to Dovin basals and Accel comps as countermeasures, then slips under lurk cloak>

[Chris OFarrell]

How exactly have we gotten all the way up to 30TT on ISD shielding (especially when you call it a "minimum")?

Isards Revenge Two ISDs Fight, each running at 100% and it takes 5 1/2 Broad Sides for one to take down the Others Shields


Assuming HTLs are still the 200 giga-ton acclimator Cannons and only 30 of them are able to shoot at a time(Roughly right) and not counting in MTLs or LTLs just those 30 guns Shooting Five times 30x5= 150 Times then multiple it by 200 Giga-tons=30,000 Giga-tons or 30TTs

Um back up sparky.

A SINGLE broadside from an ISD fired at another ISD collapses shields with energy left over to kill emplacements on the hull after the collapse in Isards revenge, with Moonshadows opening slavo against Direption So with 30 HTL's at 200 GT's each (assuming 200GT's per barrel and not 400 GT's per turret for whatever reason), you'd work out at 6000 GT's or 6 TT shielding minimum. If you took the (IMO) more conservative route (this IS supposed to be a minimum remember) and assumed it was 200GT's per 4 barrells) then you would get around 1500 GT's or 1.5 Teratons.

[omegaLancer]

TT !!!! what does it matter, An XMS would take 10,000's of missile to reach the TT range of damage.. The Andromeda would have to stop and take a week to rebuild it ammo load, by then the ISD2 would have the artifact and be gone.....

But as it stand look at the setup. If both ship are seperated by 3 AU, the fact that the Andromeda knows that the ISD is there, the info is already 23 minutes old.. The Stardestroyer has jump into an ambush position and blasted the XMS into carbon scoop, before it could even fire a single missile.

The Andromeda is handicapped by the lack of real time information and that make up for any different in acceleration or speed.. As it stand the standard sensor range of a ISD is 3 light hours.... SO IT WOULD detect the GHC vessel before it got within 3 AU..

NO matter how fast it traveling the Andromeda would not be dodging or doing a wild IVAN, it would be cruising along when the Rommie warns of a strange energy discharge and then it is destroyed by a well place barrage of TL fire..

The only chance for the Rommie is to have arrive within a few light second ,from slip steam, of the ISD then it a fight...

Remember the Andromeda universe it the ship that detect the enemy ship first is at the advantage, that why the DSX was made, better sensor and a lower sensor profile...

Then it ECM, and missile outputs as deciding factor.. Never do we see Ship ( other than Fighters and the Maru) attempt to dogfight, cause there is no dodging a missile if it has a lock...So the battle is won even before it fought due to the fact that the Andromeda is at a great sensor disadvantage..

NO SLIP Steam ejection will change that.. the fight is over the minute the SD detected the Andromeda..

OVER FINISH....

[Mr Bean]

A SINGLE broadside from an ISD fired at another ISD collapses shields with energy left over to kill emplacements on the hull after the collapse in Isards revenge, with Moonshadows opening slavo against Direption

Bullshit, of course you won't bother to supply the quote so I will

Moonshadow's gunners concetrated thier fire along the Direption's port edge, seeking to destroy the other ships weaporny. Heavy turbolasers , heavy turbolaser cannons , and ion beams all played out, splashing waves of red and blue energy across the Direption's shields. The weapons energy bled into the sphere of the shields, nibbling away at it, shriking it like a balloon with a slow leak. The suddeny the shields collasped and beams played along the hull.

Smallers guns have a 1sec Firing/Cool-down period while the bigger guns can shoot every two seconds,(WEG)
Remeber they are only targeting ONE shield section here

As for the second return fire
Direption's return salvos proved no less deady to the Moonshadow. The Hegmony's gunners concetraed thier fire on several points driving energy wedges deep into the shields, Breaches opened and beams ripped long, jagged scars into the Moonshadow's surface

The ships are in range on page 106 though the acutal firing is not desciped until 107

Meanwhile Wedge has enough time from when they start shooting at a flight of Four inteceptors, them break away and Asyr to kill two(9-25 seconds) before the Freedom and Co hype in and start hiting the Direption

At Heavy gun firing rate thats anywhere from 5 salvos to just under fifteen
I go with five because its LOW END remeber?

Of course you don't see anything wrong with going with the Highest end numbers ever demostrated by AD while'st I take the lowest possible numbers and its STILL not quite but almost a fair fight

[His Divine Shadow]

Interesting, I've never thought of it like that, ofcourse I only had quotes from those books.

[His Divine Shadow]

First didnot the PM dump both her slip steam core to destroy the planet.. I remember Harper finding both Cores missing...

Also we donot know the exact size of the planet destroy, so the exact amoung of energy released is unknown so how can you say that it is as powerful as the Deathstar...

The fact is that The andromeda AG would also be hampered from the interaction of AG fields of the SD so it without a Force field it would most likely be the one that take the worst of the Damage especially it will be at ground zero when the blast goes off..

I'd like to point out that the gravity-tech in use by the Commonwealth is screwed up, Connor Macleod highlighted instances of this before, plus the allsystems site does say it uses some funky exotic matter to work.

"A versatile technology, which harnesses exotic matter concentrations to alter and manipulate gravitational fields for various purposes"

[Antediluvian]

(Advantages:

ISD: firepower and protection
GHC: range, speed, acceleration, maneuverability, and fighters)

You forgot FTL communications and not needing to rely on vulnerable drones for active sensors, and I believe FTL sensors.

All advantages the ISD also has over the Andromeda.

[Chris OFarrell]

A SINGLE broadside from an ISD fired at another ISD collapses shields with energy left over to kill emplacements on the hull after the collapse in Isards revenge, with Moonshadows opening slavo against Direption

Bullshit, of course you won't bother to supply the quote so I will

Nice to see you as well, and I didn't supply the quote as I didn't have the book handy on me at the time. Of course its easier for you to instalty go to 'start flaming and ranting' I guess.

Moonshadow's gunners concetrated thier fire along the Direption's port edge, seeking to destroy the other ships weaporny. Heavy turbolasers , heavy turbolaser cannons , and ion beams all played out, splashing waves of red and blue energy across the Direption's shields. The weapons energy bled into the sphere of the shields, nibbling away at it, shriking it like a balloon with a slow leak. The suddeny the shields collasped and beams played along the hull.

Which is frankly, very clear.HTL's, HTC and IC's fire, the energy drains the shield and shrinks the shield sphere, then suddenly the shield collapsed meaning it had fallen.

Smallers guns have a 1sec Firing/Cool-down period while the bigger guns can shoot every two seconds,(WEG)

And? The engagement is done with ships firing one salvo then pausing for a time until they fire another salvo. You have no proof here that there was any firing done in between the described salvos. The actions in fact are are preaty explicitly described as massive salvos at each other, then nothing for a time while they manouver or such, then they fire again. The first trading of fire is the one above with the two ISD's and the VSD firing broadsides at each other. The quote does NOT say as you appear to be implying:

Moonshadow's gunners concetrated thier fire along the Direption's port edge, seeking to destroy the other ships weaporny. Heavy turbolasers , heavy turbolaser cannons , and ion beams all played out, splashing waves of red and blue energy across the Direption's shields every two seconds from now until the end of the engagement

It says "SALVO", SINGULAR, not SALVOS as you are claiming would be taking place.

Remeber they are only targeting ONE shield section here

On that I was mistaken. The first quote appears to say the shield sphere around the ship collapsed, not that one arc failed.

As for the second return fire

No, thats the first return fire. Moonshadow fired a salvo at Direption, this quote here is Direptions FIRST salvo in the engagement.

The ships are in range on page 106 though the acutal firing is not desciped until 107

They DON'T fire until page 107 unless you have proof otherwise, its preaty clear the above quotes are from the first trading of fire.

Meanwhile Wedge has enough time from when they start shooting at a flight of Four inteceptors, them break away and Asyr to kill two(9-25 seconds) before the Freedom and Co hype in and start hiting the Direption

Subjective timing here, we don't know how long it takes. At any rate, its irrelevent. We know that after they kill the fighters the cap ships are trading another salvo and its preaty clear from the sequence of events that they only fire another salvo when Wedge sees them. IMEDIATLY after the first salvo Wedge watched as the Dreadnaught reverted to realspace. Then we jump to the bridge as the Dreadnaught fires its first salvo at the VSD. At the end of that bit, the Captian gives the order to fire the next salvo at the Direption. We then have the fighters fight and then we jump back to the cap ships. Note here that then its shown the ships are onlyrealy JUST starting to take action from their first salvo, Direption had JUST started to turn to present shields to moonshadow to shoot at, Swift liberty levels out and fires the salvo ordered in the previous section. Then the Dreadnaught collapses the shields on the aft of the Liberty and the freedom jumps in. Freedom makes a strafing run as she reverts on the unshielded Port side, causing major hull damage to the ship. Moonshadow and Swift Liberty then fire a salvo each collapsing the starboard and aft shields of the ship, the freedom does not fire (again implying it needs time after its two salvos against the Direption and Dreadnaught to recharge or recover or such) but moves into position and stands by to fire and kill her if needed.

To summarise:

We have the opening salvo from an ISD II which collapses a shield arc (port), dito the return salvo. Then the VSD flys in and hits the unshielded port arc. At which point the dreadnaught comes in and attacks the VSD. Wedge flys around and when he finishes, the Swift fires her second salvo after leveling out into the unshieled side again. Moonshadow is alredy firing by this time, this salvo does not break down the shield arc (aft) she is firing into as the Direption transfered power from her port shield generators into the aft shield to reinforce them enough to handle the salvo. Freedom wreaks havoc on the port side of Direption and then the Swift Liberty collapses the aft shields on Direption, no dobut weakned by the Moonshadow attack. Moonshadow takes down the starboard shields. Both of these attacks are described as 'full salvos' (collective to both ships), the Freedom does not fire (when it should with your numbers for fire rates).

So The shields took 3 ISD II salvos and 1 VSD II salvo. PERIOD. That is all we saw them took. You apparently want to assume they took more with a totaly arbetry number, claiming in apparent contradiction to the book that they fired more salvos then we saw at rates greater then we saw. Sorry, doesn't work like that for a minimum which you are claiming your trying for.

Assuming that a VSD II is 50% the firepower of an ISD II (almost certianly far too generous but hey), taking down 3 of the 4 shield arcs (aft, port and starboard) took 3.5 ISD II salvos. NO more. No evidence they fired more then that equates to not including them in these calcs.

Of course you don't see anything wrong with going with the Highest end numbers ever demostrated by AD while'st I take the lowest possible numbers and its STILL not quite but almost a fair fight

Riiight. So in other words, how dare I point out that your low end calcs are not actaly low end? That the definition of low end genearly is the lowest reasnoable value? Which in THIS case would mean only assuming the salvos that are IN THE BLOODY BOOK are the ONLY salvos fired? HOW could I have been so stupid to not realise that in low end calcs like this its perfectly reasnoable to simply pull salvo numbers out of thin air.....

[Eleas]

Again it comes back to the old visuals are lower in canon than dialogue because they are just an interpretation of what is occurring that we can see and understand.

So Dialogue trumps Visuals? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but is that really your position?

[Antediluvian]

Again it comes back to the old visuals are lower in canon than dialogue because they are just an interpretation of what is occurring that we can see and understand.

So Dialogue trumps Visuals? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but is that really your position?

I made a thread about this very subject. That is ridiculous. If we are going to analyze these shows in a logical and scientific manner, then we need to use the methods of logic and science, not throw them out whenever it's convenient.

[Eleas]

Again it comes back to the old visuals are lower in canon than dialogue because they are just an interpretation of what is occurring that we can see and understand.

So Dialogue trumps Visuals? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but is that really your position?

I made a thread about this very subject. That is ridiculous. If we are going to analyze these shows in a logical and scientific manner, then we need to use the methods of logic and science, not throw them out whenever it's convenient.

We've debated this for fucking ages before SD.net even existed, and now some newbie twits want to assume the opposite just in passing?

Fuck that. Anyone who wishes to dispute that fact has clearly failed to read or understand the methods of debate.

[Antediluvian]

So Dialogue trumps Visuals? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but is that really your position?

I made a thread about this very subject. That is ridiculous. If we are going to analyze these shows in a logical and scientific manner, then we need to use the methods of logic and science, not throw them out whenever it's convenient.

We've debated this for fucking ages before SD.net even existed, and now some newbie twits want to assume the opposite just in passing?

Fuck that. Anyone who wishes to dispute that fact has clearly failed to read or understand the methods of debate.

It's an obvious attempt to strengthen Andromeda's position by saying that dialogue trump visuals.

I agree with you Eleas, this has been argued to death and what trumps what is obvious, regardless of what Andromeda's writers may have said.

Just drop it Renewed Valor. You know that visuals override dialogue in every case.

[Mr Bean]

It's an obvious attempt to strengthen Andromeda's position by saying that dialogue trump visuals.

But saddly it is the position of the writers

How Cannon what they say however is debatable(And oh Valor kindly provide us with where they say Dialog overrides visuals)

Now then onto Chris O'Farrell

Nice to see you as well, and I didn't supply the quote as I didn't have the book handy on me at the time. Of course its easier for you to instalty go to 'start flaming and ranting' I guess.

No Farrle I flame rarly and always for a reason, Notice I am not a Evil Ass Warsie though sometimes I want to buy into thier phiolosphy.

Anyway the fact is I provided the quote a few threads back made a case on it, it was challenged I delt with the points, Now then here somone else comes disagrees with me and outright LIEING about what the quote says then does not back it up because of course if he did the quote would show he was lieing

Which is frankly, very clear.HTL's, HTC and IC's fire, the energy drains the shield and shrinks the shield sphere, then suddenly the shield collapsed meaning it had fallen.

Yes the Port shields collapsed

On that I was mistaken. The first quote appears to say the shield sphere around the ship collapsed, not that one arc failed.

Gee then where did the Venteral Starboard and Dosal Shields go?

I cut a bit of the quote here is the rest
Swift Libert had swung down and around the Direption on a sharply angled course that took the ship across the Hegemony's line of flight. When the gunners cut loose half of them pounded on the oristine ventral shields while the foward gunners hit bits of the ship left naked after the Moonshadow's assult.
The port shields where the first to go and JUST the port shields, this is not Super buble ST here, there are four shield sections

No, thats the first return fire. Moonshadow fired a salvo at Direption this quote here is Direptions FIRST salvo in the engagement.

Ahh I seee... And ISDs only fire once at each other because its good and sporting right

They DON'T fire until page 107 unless you have proof otherwise, its preaty clear the above quotes are from the first trading of fire.

Standered Bloody Logic, Do I need to explain to you when ships of war are in range of each other they don't just sit around?
Hold on! Lets let Wedge and Corran have an important big emotianal Moment THEN we will open fire chaps! Make sure the Imperals know what were doing to prevent any accidents! Don't want anyone to get hurt now do we?


Seriously, Wedge and Asyr start in on the Ties as the ships are opening up on each other on page 105 but Stackpole does not desribe the effects of the shooting till 107 because its a little thing writers call FLOW, remeber these books were designed to glorfy Xwing pilots and show a particular elite squadren, likewise why we often watch battles from the Corner of our eye as Stackpole is writing about the Fighters not the big ships.
105 its states that the Direption was alined for a broad side on the Moonshadow and had just arived there, now then for a ship with weaponry with Light second range you think they are going to just sit there and kindly wait till they are 2KMs away then start blasting? Of course not on 105 the ships where aligned and ready to attack each other your acutal saying they SAT there and waiting till Wedge had his fun and then opened up?

Subjective timing here, we don't know how long it takes. At any rate, its irrelevent.

Except Wedge is human we know human reaction times and we know that X-wings Torps take anywhere from 3-8 seconds to aquire a soild lock which Wedge did, Then he spent a few seconds manurving to lock onto a second tie, Blasted that away THEN had time to watch Asyr scratch a Tie then him do a 180 and see the ONGOING Battle as this nice quote says on 107 before anything else right at the top
Then a trio of daggerlike ships filled his vision. All three had moved into range and cut loose

They where in postion back on page 105 meaning they where firing before Wedge antics which are
Shooting a Torp=3-8 seconds
A few Manvoiors and shooting a TIE=4-6 seconds
Watched Asyer shoot another TIE=3-10 seconds
Pulled a 180 and saw the shiping firing=3-5 seconds
Anywhere from 12-29 seconds, you notice agian I pursposly rounded down agian to give myself the worst possible number for shield strength and yet you STILL want lower

To summarise:

Snip Snip as its already been delt with just above this

Riiight. So in other words, how dare I point out that your low end calcs are not actaly low end?

Well I took the weaponry off a Twenty year old Transport, Even though all indications points to the fact those are MTLs not HTLS and used them as HTLs, then only had 30 of them firing even though I cut another 25 MTLs and an unknow LTLs(20 or so) out which could have upped my figure by another ooh 40%-70% then assumed they only fired five salvos though there was time enough for twenty and STILL its not enough for you!

Shall I remove the HTLS next and replace them with giant nerf cannons next

Would that make you happy?

[Renewed_Valour1]

So Dialogue trumps Visuals? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but is that really your position?

Not my standpoint. And I agree it is screwed up compared to how most shows are devated but at least they admit they can't have visuals that will show everything perfectly.

The writers and tech advisor for Andromeda have come out on SlipstreamBBS and said on several occasions that one cannot show the type of space combat that occurs in Andromeda accurately in a way we could follow. Try watching two ships moving at 40+ PSL fight at a light minute from each other with near C missile salvoes in the hundreds or thousands. The visuals instead are an interpretation of the action occurring that we can understand instead of the actual events. So yeah in Andromeda dialogue and All Systems is what is really happening and the visuals are just the best-fit scenario that we can manage to see. So if your dialogue conflicts with your visuals the dialogue trumps the visuals.

[His Divine Shadow]

These tech-advisors should take some hints from MW cause some of the things I've seen kinda ruins the notion I have had of Andromeda being very scientifically accurate, PSP's and Tesseracting being two of the prime offenders ofcourse(I can also think of that ep. that combined both time-travel and transporters).

And no, it's not cause of the vs. related implications, I would like to fancy myself as having moved beyond such things.

[Renewed_Valour1]

First didnot the PM dump both her slip steam core to destroy the planet.. I remember Harper finding both Cores missing...

The shot of the Pax ejecting her core only shows one core firing away from the ship. As for Harper he only had time to inspect one of the slipstream engine cores before the android crew of the Pax jumped him. If you check the All Systems entry for Herodotus you'll find that it uses the singular form for her exotic matter core pulser.

Also we donot know the exact size of the planet destroy, so the exact amoung of energy released is unknown so how can you say that it is as powerful as the Deathstar...

Hey I have to thank you on this one!

I never said it was as powerful as the Death Star. I said it blew up the planet Deathstar or S8472 Style. We in fact know the exact diameter of Herodotus was 9,400 km. Now it is smaller than the Earth but still not something to laugh at considering how it blew up. Something in the neighborhood of 8.977E+31 J or 2.2 E+10 Teratons giving or taking a few teratons if I did my math right and used Darth Wong's calculator right. No guarantees on either so check behind me.

Or one shoal not laughs at the fact that Andromeda survived being inside Cetus when her own exploded at beat a kilometer from her hull. Even if she soaked up only a tiny fraction of that total explosion she took a lot more than is needed to collapse the shields of an ISD II.

[Renewed_Valour1]

One can however laugh at my bad typing…

Or one shoal not laughs at the fact that Andromeda survived being inside Cetus when her own exploded at beat a kilometer from her hull. Even if she soaked up only a tiny fraction of that total explosion she took a lot more than is needed to collapse the shields of an ISD II.

Or one should not laugh at the fact that Andromeda survived being inside Cetus when her own core exploded at best a kilometer from her hull. Even if she soaked up only a tiny fraction of that total explosion she took a lot more than is needed to collapse the shields of an ISD II.

[Eleas]

Not my standpoint. And I agree it is screwed up compared to how most shows are devated but at least they admit they can't have visuals that will show everything perfectly.

The writers and tech advisor for Andromeda have come out on SlipstreamBBS and said on several occasions that one cannot show the type of space combat that occurs in Andromeda accurately in a way we could follow. Try watching two ships moving at 40+ PSL fight at a light minute from each other with near C missile salvoes in the hundreds or thousands. The visuals instead are an interpretation of the action occurring that we can understand instead of the actual events. So yeah in Andromeda dialogue and All Systems is what is really happening and the visuals are just the best-fit scenario that we can manage to see. So if your dialogue conflicts with your visuals the dialogue trumps the visuals.

Yeah, I understand that. But is this the official canonicity pledge, or just an off-the-cuff statement? Is it their policy or not?