Jedi versus really skilled human

[Stuart Mackey]

Hmm, nope, Mace says their ability to "use the force", pretty clear that, if we assume that Mace speaks only of that one ability, then Mace's comment is weird and errorenous.

Hmm, my mistake, he did say that. However you are still using one statement to justify a whole raft of other theories which do not justify it givent he context of the discussion.

It is you who have decided to make assumptions about context and ignore Mace's words wich seems pretty explicit to me.

Mace's words are limited to a certain context, namly that of lack of knowledge of the clone army.
You have not provided evidence, letalone a mechanism, whereby Palpy can reduse the demonstated personal abilities of the Jedi.
Palpy has demonstrated a ability to cloud the Jedi's forsight, and there is clear evidence of this in that they did not know of the existance of the clone army.

[JodoForce]

So you mean to tell me that a seal who does the same old stuff, time and time again, and never takes the initiative is the worst (correction: best?) SEAL? If every thing was like that we would still be in the damn stoneage.Might I sugest that you read some real books on SEALs and the SAS like Andy McNab not Clancy crap

You seem to be assuming that the book includes detailed instructions on tactics and is poorly written so that SEALs following the book have bad tactics. Neither is likely to be true. 'The book' may only include basics like the safest way to cover a room, which if not followed will get you killed more likely than not. If the book covers tactics examples, it's not going to tell you that those are the only tactics you can use either.

Also darth fanboy I was using something called an anology. Its when you compare similar things about stuff (Battle Droids -> Old style jedi /SD-10 -> SD-9 with -> meaning defeats)

And the Jedi don't know how the Sith fight? And do the shadow droids win because of the element of surprise or because they are just plain superior in abilities?

[Sir Sirius]

So you mean to tell me that a seal who does the same old stuff, time and time again, and never takes the initiative is the worst (correction: best?) SEAL?

Yes, the soldier that does things "by the book" and is a team player is far better then a soldier that doesn't. Infact the soldier that doesn't is not only endangering himself, he is jeopardizing the entire mission and his team mates as well. IRL loose cannons like that are more of a danger to their own unit then to the enemy.

If every thing was like that we would still be in the damn stoneage.

Ah, I see, your stupid. Technical innovation and progress and a soldier acting like a Rambo while on a mission have
absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Might I sugest that you read some real books on SEALs and the SAS like Andy McNab not Clancy crap

That was just hilarius.

[Smiling Bandit]

Aside from this, how the hell does "not employing the tactic when I think they should" prove they aren't able to?)

As Wong himself pointed out, there are a very low number of samples in the movies. Thus I have more or less told you straight out I was reaching due to lack of evidence.

However, it appears the comics, novels, and novelizations (which I do not read, due to low quality) contradict me. That is unfortunate, but if you expect me to pay large amounts of cash for crappy novels to argue with, you are sadly mistaken. I read some of the STar Wars stuff a while back, when they were opening it up to semi-public writing, and GOD it is still bad.

I did like the stuff with absolutely nothing to do Jedi. Much better.

[Connor MacLeod]

Aside from this, how the hell does "not employing the tactic when I think they should" prove they aren't able to?)

As Wong himself pointed out, there are a very low number of samples in the movies. Thus I have more or less told you straight out I was reaching due to lack of evidence.

However, it appears the comics, novels, and novelizations (which I do not read, due to low quality) contradict me. That is unfortunate, but if you expect me to pay large amounts of cash for crappy novels to argue with, you are sadly mistaken. I read some of the STar Wars stuff a while back, when they were opening it up to semi-public writing, and GOD it is still bad.

I did like the stuff with absolutely nothing to do Jedi. Much better.

Ah, so we're employing the same logic trekkie fanatics who hate the ICS do?

Does your little "the writing sucks" bitchfest make you feel any better? Or maybe you need a pacifier?

[Vympel]

Disguise it. jedi may have a connection to all living things, but their precognition ain't that fast.

There's a good no-numbers mentality for you. The precognition ain't 'that' fast, though they can deflect blaster bolts moving at km/s (re: Geonosis field of battle), they'll have lots of trouble with a 'disguised' hand grenade. Sure. Whatever.

Five seconds before detonation:

"Oh crap! Run!"

BOOM! Takes out whole city block.

That must be the Stupid-Co Hand Grenade.

Unless they use the force speed which they've done' only once. Oh well.

Ah, so the ability has been observed, but they can't use it. Right.

Nuke it all from orbit. Its the onyl way to be sure.

Now you're just being asinine.

[Connor MacLeod]

Question for the "precognition isn't all that fast" crowd. Would you argue that a ship moving slower than lightspeed could outrun a FTL starship over the same distance in a straight-line path?

[His Divine Shadow]

Hmm, my mistake, he did say that. However you are still using one statement to justify a whole raft of other theories which do not justify it givent he context of the discussion.

I don't think there is alot to justify really, even Obi-Wans performance in AOTC was not as good as it was in TPM where they pulled alot more impressive feats.

You have not provided evidence, letalone a mechanism, whereby Palpy can reduse the demonstated personal abilities of the Jedi.

Well as it happens, mechanism for this seems to exist in certain forms, in the AOTC novel we have the lightsaber fights taking place on two planes at once, they fight each other with the force.
Secondly, here is an official power:
Battle Meditation - Two possible effects! The Jedi can force his adversaries to stop their attack and begin to fight each other! The Jedi can also make his allies' will to win stronger, while weakening the resolve of the enemy!

This power seems to be able to fulfill the requirements of what would be needed to some degree, this is an extremely powerfull skill that noone, not even Luke has mastered.
The Emperor OTOH used this power to help his own forces,and it can be used to cripple enemy forces, as it says in HTTE.

As for your wording "reduse the demonstated personal abilities of the Jedi", nah, more like just generally interfering with their connection to the force, or subconsciously with their willpower and such, as this power shows.
There are even Sith Talismans that can be imbued with special powers, Palpy might have used such things to cause this shroud effect.

And as Yoda said "the Darkside clouds _everything_"

[Stuart Mackey]

Hmm, my mistake, he did say that. However you are still using one statement to justify a whole raft of other theories which do not justify it givent he context of the discussion.

I don't think there is alot to justify really, even Obi-Wans performance in AOTC was not as good as it was in TPM where they pulled alot more impressive feats.

Or more probably the situation did not alow for showy nonsence and Obi had grown out of it?. The arena fight would not have alolowed for such stuff given the odds

You have not provided evidence, letalone a mechanism, whereby Palpy can reduse the demonstated personal abilities of the Jedi.

Well as it happens, mechanism for this seems to exist in certain forms, in the AOTC novel we have the lightsaber fights taking place on two planes at once, they fight each other with the force.
Secondly, here is an official power:
Battle Meditation - Two possible effects! The Jedi can force his adversaries to stop their attack and begin to fight each other! The Jedi can also make his allies' will to win stronger, while weakening the resolve of the enemy!

This power seems to be able to fulfill the requirements of what would be needed to some degree, this is an extremely powerfull skill that noone, not even Luke has mastered.
The Emperor OTOH used this power to help his own forces,and it can be used to cripple enemy forces, as it says in HTTE.

So? We know that they can pull of much showy stuff, we know they are not soldiers. It is more likely that lack of performance in the arena was padawan inexperience/lack of group combat training and tactics combined with a lack of offensive firepower, and the defeat there demonstates this.

Where did you get the source above Btw? As such a capability would not matter over much when faced with overwhealming odds. The arena fight and the Geonosis battle showed that a conventional army will overwhealm a jedi/sith which is why sith never challenged the Jedi for a thousand years despite these abilities.

As for your wording "reduse the demonstated personal abilities of the Jedi", nah, more like just generally interfering with their connection to the force, or subconsciously with their willpower and such, as this power shows.
There are even Sith Talismans that can be imbued with special powers, Palpy might have used such things to cause this shroud effect.

And as Yoda said "the Darkside clouds _everything_"

Possibly, but we have not seen much evidence of this one way or another.

[His Divine Shadow]

Or more probably the situation did not alow for showy nonsence and Obi had grown out of it?. The arena fight would not have alolowed for such stuff given the odds

It would hardly be showy to just force-push Jango so that he falls, or yank his pistols away, we saw how long it took Qui-Gon to do that to the droids in TPM, he could have done that the instant he exited the doors and taken a very large advantage from Jango.
His pre-cog abilities I also felt where subpar in the HTH fight as he got caught offguard several times, especially that headbutt.

So?

I am attempting to demonstrate it would be within the abilities of a Sith to cause such effects, Palpatine was able to cloud the perceptions of billions on Coruscant when the Lusankya was buried.

We know that they can pull of much showy stuff, we know they are not soldiers. It is more likely that lack of performance in the arena was padawan inexperience/lack of group combat training and tactics combined with a lack of offensive firepower, and the defeat there demonstates this

Irrelevant, I have not brought up the arena once in this discussion nor have I any plans todo so, I have nothing to say on that, I am talking about the abilities of Palpatine and Dooku right now.

[Connor MacLeod]

Isn't it still assuming that Palpy is behind the whole "shroud fo the Darkside" thing to begin with? We've been given no evidence of it (and I don't recall any evidence, official or canon, that hinted he could blind the precognitive/mental abilities of the entire Jedi order) and based on what we DO know, it could be argued just as a side effect (or deliberate action of the Force, like Anakin's birth.) rather than a deliberate action by the Sith.

For example, we know the Jedi were not able to predict Anakin's birth, or where it was (or the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo or their military b uildup.) - Are we to assume that the Sith were deliberately attempting to conceal Anakin's birth from the Jedi?

On top of that, how is it that Mace's claim that they are "losing their ability to use the Force" is interpreted to mean ONLY their precognitive/predictive abilities? Precognition, as well as TK, energy deflection, and their other talents, all require the Jedi to be able to touch the Force. If their ability to "use" one was affected, then by logic their other abilities should also be affected, since they also rely on "using the Force." just as much as precognition does. (And why didnt Mace specify their "ability to predict events using the Force." rather than make a generalized statement?)

Claiming that their inability to "detect" certain events in AOTC (or TPM) does demonstrate their loss of Force ability, but it is in no way mutually exclusive with the corresponding loss of OTHER abilities (nor does it prove that they lost ONLY their precognitive abilities.) The battle on Geonosis demonstrates that the Jedi's powers (as Mike has pointed out before) have declined substantially from what we saw in TPM, and in the later OT. THAT alone is proof enough to argue for "use of the force diminishing" to apply to their physical abilities as well as mental. (and it requires just as much "interpretation" of observed canon as the assumption that only "Precognition" was affected.)

In short, it is not the ONLY answer to the Jedi's obsered lack of performance (it oculd also be argued we did not SEE it, since we did not observe the battle in its entirety - the AOTC novel describes instances we don't see in the movies during the battle. Plus, its reasonable to assume that their actions were limited by the sheer number of battle droids, the terrain, etc.), but it is certainly a valid and plausible reason, and just as proven in the canon as the claim that "precognition was only affected." Claiming that the "shroud of the darkside" limited all their abilities is by no means a strawman, at least no more than claiming only part of their abilities were affected is.

[Stuart Mackey]

Or more probably the situation did not alow for showy nonsence and Obi had grown out of it?. The arena fight would not have alolowed for such stuff given the odds

It would hardly be showy to just force-push Jango so that he falls, or yank his pistols away, we saw how long it took Qui-Gon to do that to the droids in TPM, he could have done that the instant he exited the doors and taken a very large advantage from Jango.
His pre-cog abilities I also felt where subpar in the HTH fight as he got caught offguard several times, especially that headbutt.

He could have done a number of things and he has been shown to do them, but is hard to seconed guess someone in a combat situation as you know. He was sufficiantly able to defelect Jango's shots no differently than in TPM and his precog abilities in relation to combat appeared no different than in TPM, what was diffent in on the landing platform was mission.

So?

I am attempting to demonstrate it would be within the abilities of a Sith to cause such effects, Palpatine was able to cloud the perceptions of billions on Coruscant when the Lusankya was buried.

There was no sith at the cloneing facilitiy. And if Palps was able he was not so able to this to such a degree out at Geonosis or he could have, should have, eliminated a good chunk of the Jedi leadership. A more plausible explanation of the arean fight is the Jedi lack of training for this sort of thing and lack of offensive firepower.

We know that they can pull of much showy stuff, we know they are not soldiers. It is more likely that lack of performance in the arena was padawan inexperience/lack of group combat training and tactics combined with a lack of offensive firepower, and the defeat there demonstates this

Irrelevant, I have not brought up the arena once in this discussion nor have I any plans todo so, I have nothing to say on that, I am talking about the abilities of Palpatine and Dooku right now.[/quote]

Which relates directly to Jedi combat abilities, so yes it is very relivant, as is any fight the Jedi are in, as the argument is about Jedi ability to use the force.

[Smiling Bandit]

Ah, so we're employing the same logic trekkie fanatics who hate the ICS do?

Does your little "the writing sucks" bitchfest make you feel any better? Or maybe you need a pacifier?

Perhaps once your done wanking off, you'll note I simply said I haven't read anything new, mostly because I'm not as stupid as you morons reading the KJA crap and constantly whining about it. And you'll also note I conceded that information unavailable to me disproved my case.

So what are you complaining about now? Oh yes, you are a childish brat who gets off by mocking people on a semi-private board. Guess which one of us hasn't slept with a woman.

There's a good no-numbers mentality for you. The precognition ain't 'that' fast, though they can deflect blaster bolts moving at km/s (re: Geonosis field of battle), they'll have lots of trouble with a 'disguised' hand grenade. Sure. Whatever.

That must be the Stupid-Co Hand Grenade.

Who said I was talking about a fragmentation hand-grenade? You can theoretically build a very large bomb from a propane-lox slurry that should torch the whole block. In Star Wars, you can build a hand-grenade significantly more powerful than any earth explosive. I was exaggerating, but not by much. It would be trivially easy to build a very large and powerful explosive and assassinate a Jedi. Moreover, I note that blasters, though certainly quick, still travel withing the bounds of normal human perception. Thee is no reason to believe the Jedi gain enormous lead-up time before the event.

In AoTC, despite there being two Jedi right next door, the slithering poison things were within a half-second of killing Amidala. The Jedi had perhaps a few moments to consider and enter the room. Since I do happen to have the AotC DVD with me at this precise second (and do not yet own the DVD) I am unabel to chart the exact listed time.

However, If I recall correctly, there were no more than 5 seconds of footage passing from the Jedi noticing Amidala was about to die and killing the wormy. Likewise, Qui Gon is TPM did not seem to be reacting very much before a danger or threat presented itself. For example, he sensed Darth Maul and yelled to Anakin a split second before the kid would have been hit by Maul's bike.

Ah, so the ability has been observed, but they can't use it. Right.

Obviously they can use it. The fact that they have not under a number of delicate situations indicates they have some limitation on it.

Now you're just being asinine.

Perhaps, but the Jedi are all dead. And of course, more than one fan has postulated this is what the Emperor will actually being doing in Episode 3.

[Darth Wong]

In AoTC, despite there being two Jedi right next door, the slithering poison things were within a half-second of killing Amidala. The Jedi had perhaps a few moments to consider and enter the room. Since I do happen to have the AotC DVD with me at this precise second (and do not yet own the DVD) I am unabel to chart the exact listed time.

They had just enough time. Against other attacks, they've demonstrated much less warning time, because they didn't need it. A few seconds is actually quite a long time. Besides, they were distracted by their argument. A Jedi's power isn't autonomous; he must be focusing to a certain extent. Against a single enemy this shouldn't be a problem, but in a chaotic situation it would be more difficult.

However, If I recall correctly, there were no more than 5 seconds of footage passing from the Jedi noticing Amidala was about to die and killing the wormy. Likewise, Qui Gon is TPM did not seem to be reacting very much before a danger or threat presented itself. For example, he sensed Darth Maul and yelled to Anakin a split second before the kid would have been hit by Maul's bike.

Precisely; they get just enough warning time. If Anakin in AOTC had reacted with as little warning time as Qui-Gon had in TPM, then Padme would be dead. So he got more lead time.

Obviously they can use it. The fact that they have not under a number of delicate situations indicates they have some limitation on it.

Well, of course they have some limitation; everything has some limitation. The problem is the assumption that this limitation should be assumed to be BELOW what we've actually seen.

[Connor MacLeod]

Besides, they were distracted by their argument. A Jedi's power isn't autonomous; he must be focusing to a certain extent. Against a single enemy this shouldn't be a problem, but in a chaotic situation it would be more difficult.

It should be added to this that in addition to concentration being a requisite to using the Force (Jedi can and have been known to "lose" contact with the Force under the right circumstances, after all) that submerging oneself into the Force also involves "giving up" a certain degree of free will and conscious thought to the Force itself (the Force can "control" actions as well as obey commands, remember. And this whole aspect of the Force overriding human action or thought has been mentioend in the canon novelizations as well as the EU numerous times.)

Obviously there are situations where a Jedi is not always "In" the Force like that (such as in a nonthreatening situation.), nor is it always desirable (such as when having an argument, or some such.) But in other situations (like combat), it might be very derisable. Lets not also forget that its quite obvious their precognitive abilities have degenerated at the time of AOTC (and for example with Qui-Gon, Maul could clearly have been either masking himself or interfering with Jedi precognition.)

[Smiling Bandit]

Precisely; they get just enough warning time. If Anakin in AOTC had reacted with as little warning time as Qui-Gon had in TPM, then Padme would be dead. So he got more lead time.

That comes a little bit close to a No-Limits Fallacy itself. We've never seen precog reflex extend out more than a few seconds, right? So we can tentatively establish that as a limit? I have no graphic evidence of anything more, with the exception of the vague future sight power.

There also appear to be some limitations on what the Jedi percieve. Would a Jedi notice his food is poisoned? What if the poison is slow acting, so the Jedi will die hours later?

Man, this sucks. There goes one theory. Now if I can only get my hands on a Jedi to test my "Mad Bomber" idea...

[Vympel]

Who said I was talking about a fragmentation hand-grenade? You can theoretically build a very large bomb from a propane-lox slurry that should torch the whole block.

And which dumbass is going to try throwing this thing? Or is your tactic just "build big bomb, leave around for Jedi to haplessly walk into." Why not just bombard the area with turbolasers while you're at it?

Perhaps, but the Jedi are all dead. And of course, more than one fan has postulated this is what the Emperor will actually being doing in Episode 3.

They'd also all be dead from a nuclear bomb. So what?

[JodoForce]

Question for the "precognition isn't all that fast" crowd. Would you argue that a ship moving slower than lightspeed could outrun a FTL starship over the same distance in a straight-line path?

No, which is why precog can only help Jedi so much. If you think a Jedi can dodge / outrun [insert big area-effect weapon / fast missile here] in a vs using precog, you are the one who might be giving the wrong answer to the quoted question.

So, scenario no. 1:
Human driving tank vs Jedi
Starting distance 100m
Tank fires HE round that hits at Jedi's location in .1s and blows up with man-killing blast radius = 99m

(The specifics may be off, I'm not a HAB member, but you shoud get the idea)

Can the Jedi win?

Us: even if he starts running away the moment the vs starts he'll still be caught in the blast when the round lands

You: ?

Does he win by outrunning the blast despite his inferior speed because he has precog? Does the non-FTL ship with a Jedi on it fly faster than an FTL ship?

[Smiling Bandit]

And which dumbass is going to try throwing this thing?* Or is your tactic just "build big bomb, leave around for Jedi to haplessly walk into."** Why not just bombard the area with turbolasers while you're at it?***

* Throwing would work if you sealed it properly.

** More or less. Its a tactic of not having a full military available to kill jedi on your command, with overwhelming force (i.e., droid army in AotC)

*** Well, the slurry explosive is cheap. Sure, it takes skill and expertise to use, but its a lot cheaper than getting a starship. All you need in Star Wars is someone to build it, a little cash, and a getaway vehicle.

basically, since it appears Jedi have more power than I anticipated, this is the most expedient way I'd deal with one, since most other avenues are closed off. A tactic of the weak.

[Ghost Rider]

Amazing that Jodo uses an example on the level of "Look let's give the human an advantage that nothing short of Superman could overcome and look the Jedi will surely lose and see it's just a regular human!"

Yeah, no shit dumbass...did you come up with that all by your lonesome?

[JodoForce]

It was only made up to show Connor that it is exactly becuase I think the answer to his question is 'no' that I think the Jedi should lose.

I thought of making it one human with a rocket launcher vs a Jedi, but I'm afraid we'd end up arguing whether the Jedi can outrun it using superspeed, so I made the scenario a bit extreme

Obviously I'm not the only one thinking of area effect weapons though.

How much advantage is too much advantage anyway? In order for the human to beat a Jedi the human must have an equipment advantage over him. Where am I supposed to draw the line? Someone mentioned nuking the Jedi from orbit. Why don't you go spend 10 posts laughing at him then? Why do you keep targetting me and only me?

Oh, and isn't a Jedi supposed to beat Superman?