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StarshipTitanic
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

What next European war?
The one that comes when Britain and France are tired of the Germans encroaching on their territory. If Germany pulls off a win in a no-Britain WW1 (which they most likely would), it'll start preparing for their showdown with Britain. Unless you think the Germans are going to be content as the third-most powerful nation in Europe.
You're basing this on what, precisely? The long history of friendship and cooperation between Britain and France?
No, the fact that Britain and France won't mindless watch one another get ripped apart and ignore the consequences to the neigh-important Balance of Power concept.
BTW, Germany already had a huge slice of Poland.
They, as Prussia, controlled more than they, as Germany, did at the start of WW1.
If Britain is staying out of the war, why would their ally Japan unilaterally declare war on Germany?
France: Hey Japan, want to ally with me so you can get even more Chinese and Oceanic territory?
Japan: The consequences?
France: Uh...none?
Japan: Ok then!

Japan has no reason to ally against France and have Germany take over former French territory while they can ally with France and keep the German territory they gain.
French-Indochina. France falls, Germany seizes this colony. The Japanese navy was no match for the German, they have no way to prevent this.
What's Japan going to do, the Russo-Japanese War in reverse? There's no way Germany is going to send their ENTIRE fleet around the world to fight Japan and Japan has no reason to take the war to the North Sea. Japan can replace their losses and increase their numbers faster than Germany can hope for.
I'm curious what makes you think Germany would have no projection of power, if Britain is staying out.....
Because they have to go around the world to defend colonies. Japan is forced to deploy from their own bases in their home turf. :roll:
If Germany and the Austro-Hungarians win, you think the Austrians would accept anything less than complete control of Serbia? Do you know what action it was that sent the Russians to mobilise?
Control doesn't necessarily mean annex the entire country but they might. *shrugs*
Without Turkish anger at Britain, they'd never get involved.
But they still hate the Russians and with Russia gettings it steppes handed to it they wouldn't have anything to lose. I admit it's iffy.
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Frank Hipper
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Post by Frank Hipper »

TheDarkling wrote:
The HSF was built as a political tool to allow Germany the freedom to expand colonially. It was never designed to defeat the RN, merely maul to the point that Britain would be forced to a diplomatic solution in event of war. Defending Belgian neutrality is the only legitimate reason Britain had for going to war in 1914.
Rubbish, the HSF was designed to do battle with the RN in the North Sea and defeat it opening the way for Germany to attack the home islands, whether Germany simply wanted this as a possible threat to get the Empire to look the other way whilst they attacked others is immaterial the HSF was built for one purpose alone and that was to enable the Germanys to threaten invasion of the UK.
Provide one single scrap of evidence for this invasion theory. Just one.
This led to a naval armaments race because Germany was being belligerent, you build a fleet for the sole purpose of attacking a particular nation and that nation is going to take offence and seek to forge other alliances.
And a rabid press that calls for "Copenhagen" style operations against a country you're not at war with, and a head of the navy who has a pet project involving "Pommeranian landings" are merely the desperate last resorts of the helpless victim?
The Kaiser's diplomatic ineptness basicly amounted to him promising support of Austria-Hungary, when he saw the ultimatum they issued to Serbia, he was horrified, knowing what it would lead to....
I was talking way before when the UK sought an alliance with Germany but because of the Kaisers idiocy we sought an accord with France instead.
The Kaiser was a ham fisted blunderer, yes. His mother had a hand in his antipathy towards Britain, though.
Do your research from period tabloids much? This "if only Germany would be reasonable" argument was the cause of German antagonism towards Britain, nice to see people can still, after nearly 90 years, disregard that the path to war was more than a black and white situation
Again you misunderstood me (and then attacked my creditability), Britain tried to ally with out "natural ally" as they were called but Germany was intent on building a fleet to attack Britain with, rebuffing alliance proposals, supplying our enemies with arms and general being arrogant fools and thus Britain needed to seek an ally with strong abilities on the continent (although we had to settle for France :) ).
Britain NEVER sought an ally until 1904, the entire period of diplomacy is called "Splendid Isolation" for a reason. When you're parrotting period sentiment, atacking your "creditability" should be expected. Accusing a nation of "being arrogant fools" 90 some-odd years after the fact without looking further than into it does little for anyone's credibility.

And please, do elaborate on this "supplying our enemies with arms", I'm sure an exploration of how the term "concentration camp" came into existence would be edifying to us all.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Dar-es-Salaam has squat to support a fleet. Its very small both in piers, has no dry docks, few provisions for storing let alone loading coal and has no naval workshops or ammunition storage. It doesn't even have that much anchorage space and was on the shallow side. Once again it can be built up but that would take years. Its also over five thousand miles from Saigon.
Actually, Dar-es-Salaam was able to service and rebuild boiler machinery for a German light cruiser operating from local estuaries. Railroad workshops were often able to substitute for the more traditional naval infrastructure that would have been found elsewhere in Germany, albeit on a limited basis. Given the size of the fleet in question however, there’s no doubt that your assessment of the port as too small is still on-target.
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Frank Hipper
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Post by Frank Hipper »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
What next European war?
The one that comes when Britain and France are tired of the Germans encroaching on their territory. If Germany pulls off a win in a no-Britain WW1 (which they most likely would), it'll start preparing for their showdown with Britain. Unless you think the Germans are going to be content as the third-most powerful nation in Europe.
Baseless speculation, and what do you mean third most powerful nation in Europe? They were the most powerful land based power when the damned war started, and second in the entire world!
You're basing this on what, precisely? The long history of friendship and cooperation between Britain and France?
No, the fact that Britain and France won't mindless watch one another get ripped apart and ignore the consequences to the neigh-important Balance of Power concept.
While we're letting our imaginations run wild, why wouldn't a neutral Britain merely side with the winner?
BTW, Germany already had a huge slice of Poland.
They, as Prussia, controlled more than they, as Germany, did at the start of WW1.
What'd they give up at unification?
If Britain is staying out of the war, why would their ally Japan unilaterally declare war on Germany?
France: Hey Japan, want to ally with me so you can get even more Chinese and Oceanic territory?
Japan: The consequences?
France: Uh...none?
Japan: Ok then!

Japan has no reason to ally against France and have Germany take over former French territory while they can ally with France and keep the German territory they gain.
Niiice. Pass that doobie, it's obviously some good shit.
French-Indochina. France falls, Germany seizes this colony. The Japanese navy was no match for the German, they have no way to prevent this.
What's Japan going to do, the Russo-Japanese War in reverse? There's no way Germany is going to send their ENTIRE fleet around the world to fight Japan and Japan has no reason to take the war to the North Sea. Japan can replace their losses and increase their numbers faster than Germany can hope for.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Really, I want some of that shit! You have NO idea of what you're talking about if you can make a claim like that with a straight face. Japan had 4 battlecruisers, two dreadnought battleships in 1914. And the difficult to manufacture equipment like turrets wasn't even made in Japan. Nor was the first of the battlecruisers. Japan managed a dizzying total of six capitol ships between 1912 and 1920. Germany built 9 between 1911 and 1917, and without the intrusion of the war, would have had more.
Japan's going to outbuild Germany with what?
I'm curious what makes you think Germany would have no projection of power, if Britain is staying out.....
Because they have to go around the world to defend colonies. Japan is forced to deploy from their own bases in their home turf. :roll:
Roll your eyes at yourself, smartass. The closest Japanese base of operations is 2400 miles away from the proposed theater of operations. With a fraction of Germany's mercantile shipping, a navy that could concieveably devour it's coal reserves in this action, and the neccessity of transporting troops, they're over-extended.
This would be NO picnic for Germany, but Japan is facing the same problems to a lesser degree, and with a fraction the capability.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Frank Hipper wrote:Baseless speculation, and what do you mean third most powerful nation in Europe? They were the most powerful land based power when the damned war started, and second in the entire world!
Germany is powerful, but it's capacity to project this power beyond the continent is nil. Britain has less power on an absolute scale but is able to mount a first-class military effort anywhere in the world.
While we're letting our imaginations run wild, why wouldn't a neutral Britain merely side with the winner?
Because of the balance of power system, which compelled Britain to side with the weaker party in most previous conflicts? There's also the fact that this scenario requires no invasion of Belgium, which means a French-German collision in Alsace-Lorraine, causing absolutely enormous casualties on both sides and a swift bogging down of the front. Unless both armies suffered a total moral collapse after the first wave (a possibility) it would go on until France runs out of soldiers.

EDIT:
What I'm saying is, it won't be an easy victory for Germany, and Britain may even have a compulsion to hop in towards the end to save France from a Versailles-style peace.
BTW, Germany already had a huge slice of Poland.
They, as Prussia, controlled more than they, as Germany, did at the start of WW1.
What'd they give up at unification?
Niiice. Pass that doobie, it's obviously some good shit.
What an enjoyable failure to address his point. The Germans can't stop the Japanese from raping their colonies. If they happen to get Indochina in a peace settlement and somehow remain at war with Japan, they still can't reinforce it.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Really, I want some of that shit! You have NO idea of what you're talking about if you can make a claim like that with a straight face. Japan had 4 battlecruisers, two dreadnought battleships in 1914. And the difficult to manufacture equipment like turrets wasn't even made in Japan. Nor was the first of the battlecruisers. Japan managed a dizzying total of six capitol ships between 1912 and 1920. Germany built 9 between 1911 and 1917, and without the intrusion of the war, would have had more.
Japan's going to outbuild Germany with what?
You're an idiot. Germany has to actually get those numbers to the Pacific, which it simply will be unable to do. Tell us, how will the High Seas Fleet get to and engage the Japanese fleet?

EDIT:
In addition, the British are still in a state of armed neutrality and merely "not quite hostile" to Germany. The Germans will not be able to bring but a fraction of their capacity to bear.
Roll your eyes at yourself, smartass. The closest Japanese base of operations is 2400 miles away from the proposed theater of operations. With a fraction of Germany's mercantile shipping, a navy that could concieveably devour it's coal reserves in this action, and the neccessity of transporting troops, they're over-extended.
This would be NO picnic for Germany, but Japan is facing the same problems to a lesser degree, and with a fraction the capability.
The ratio of difficulty to capability is slightly tilted in Japan's favor.

Also, you're supposing that the battle will take place around Indochina, right? Me being no naval authority, I believe onus is upon Germany to successfully relieve their own colonies. The Japanese will let them come to Japan.
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Thank you, Pablo. :)
Baseless speculation, and what do you mean third most powerful nation in Europe? They were the most powerful land based power when the damned war started, and second in the entire world!
Baseless speculation? Between 1816 and 1914, there were over twenty wars involving at least two European powers and in most of those wars, the Great Powers get away with relatively little losses (A big exception would be the Franco-Prussian War [you know, the one that already puts bad blood between France and Germany]). In No England WW1, France and Russia lose out BIG TIME. You think they aren't going to be pissed? You think that Germany/Austria is going to say "Well I think that's enough conquering for one century!"!?!? Was that the aftermath of real life WW1, moron? That's funny, I don't see Poland negotiating with the Wiemar Republic over rail links to East Prussia in the news. :roll:

France would still have a superior oversee Empire while Germany and Italy make off with some desert.
While we're letting our imaginations run wild, why wouldn't a neutral Britain merely side with the winner?
Gee, I don't know. Maybe it's because the Germans would build an even greater fleet to threaten Britain than before? It would be a monumentally stupid decision to not enter WW1, however, so perhaps they'd remain neutral until some neutron bombs are dropped by Mega-Deutchland when they decide to take over Europe?
What'd they give up at unification?
Nothing. Maybe you weren't paying attention to that whole Napoleonic War thingie that was happening a century before WW1, but you'd know that the borders were readjusted to give Russia the defunct Grand Duchy of Warsaw if you did.
Niiice. Pass that doobie, it's obviously some good shit.
Concession accepted, twit.
Really, I want some of that shit! You have NO idea of what you're talking about if you can make a claim like that with a straight face. Japan had 4 battlecruisers, two dreadnought battleships in 1914. And the difficult to manufacture equipment like turrets wasn't even made in Japan. Nor was the first of the battlecruisers. Japan managed a dizzying total of six capitol ships between 1912 and 1920. Germany built 9 between 1911 and 1917, and without the intrusion of the war, would have had more.
Japan's going to outbuild Germany with what?
There's a famous movie taken of an Austro-Hungarian battleship sinking after it was attacked by some Italian torpedo boats. Japan doesn't need to slug it out to sink the German Navy.

How about you tell me how the German High Seas Fleet is going to get past the French Fleet and get to Asia in time.
Roll your eyes at yourself, smartass. The closest Japanese base of operations is 2400 miles away from the proposed theater of operations. With a fraction of Germany's mercantile shipping, a navy that could concieveably devour it's coal reserves in this action, and the neccessity of transporting troops, they're over-extended.
You must be right, look at their crappy fleet and its crappy performance during the real WW1...no wait.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

StarshipTitanic wrote:Thank you, Pablo. :)
:roll:
Baseless speculation, and what do you mean third most powerful nation in Europe? They were the most powerful land based power when the damned war started, and second in the entire world!
Baseless speculation? Between 1816 and 1914, there were over twenty wars involving at least two European powers and in most of those wars, the Great Powers get away with relatively little losses (A big exception would be the Franco-Prussian War [you know, the one that already puts bad blood between France and Germany]).
In No England WW1, France and Russia lose out BIG TIME. You think they aren't going to be pissed? You think that Germany/Austria is going to say "Well I think that's enough conquering for one century!"!?!? Was that the aftermath of real life WW1, moron?
Well, you sure got me, genius! Tell us brainiac, how this is not basesless specualtion.
What are the conditions of the treaties?
What are the demands of the victors?
What are the financial conditions in the defeated countries?
Would the victors demand crippling reparations?
Unless you're defining those conditions, you're blowing smoke up my ass about "the aftermath of real life WWI" and how it relates to any outcomes of this scenario.
France would still have a superior oversee Empire while Germany and Italy make off with some desert.
What the fuck does Italy have to do with this?
While we're letting our imaginations run wild, why wouldn't a neutral Britain merely side with the winner?
Gee, I don't know. Maybe it's because the Germans would build an even greater fleet to threaten Britain than before? It would be a monumentally stupid decision to not enter WW1, however, so perhaps they'd remain neutral until some neutron bombs are dropped by Mega-Deutchland when they decide to take over Europe?
England could always outbuild Germany.
Now that the only thing that makes sense in the above has been addressed, we're left with WHAT THE FUCK?
What'd they give up at unification?
Nothing. Maybe you weren't paying attention to that whole Napoleonic War thingie that was happening a century before WW1, but you'd know that the borders were readjusted to give Russia the defunct Grand Duchy of Warsaw if you did.
This is an entertaining sidetrack to a comment about Germany gaining ground in a country they had huge holdings in, and a SUPER way to answer a question.
Niiice. Pass that doobie, it's obviously some good shit.
Concession accepted, twit.
Considering that was in response to this:
France: Hey Japan, want to ally with me so you can get even more Chinese and Oceanic territory?
Japan: The consequences?
France: Uh...none?
Japan: Ok then!
The comment stands. France would give it's Asian colonies to Japan just to keep them out of Germany's hands, and drag neutral Japan into war with Germany.
That's bongtastic, asshole
Really, I want some of that shit! You have NO idea of what you're talking about if you can make a claim like that with a straight face. Japan had 4 battlecruisers, two dreadnought battleships in 1914. And the difficult to manufacture equipment like turrets wasn't even made in Japan. Nor was the first of the battlecruisers. Japan managed a dizzying total of six capitol ships between 1912 and 1920. Germany built 9 between 1911 and 1917, and without the intrusion of the war, would have had more.
Japan's going to outbuild Germany with what?
There's a famous movie taken of an Austro-Hungarian battleship sinking after it was attacked by some Italian torpedo boats. Japan doesn't need to slug it out to sink the German Navy.
If you'd bothered to even casually research that event, you'd know that ship wasn't even MOVING when it was attacked.
What this means in a discussion about German ships is beyond me, anyway. German dreadnoughts shrugged off individual torpedo and mine hits, the battlecruiser Seydlitz took a torpedo, 21 heavy shells, and numerous medium shells and still made it home. And here's a hint, battleships are built stronger than batlecruisers. If you think you're proving something by relating an incident about a non German, unprepared, immobile battleship, you're very mistaken.
How about you tell me how the German High Seas Fleet is going to get past the French Fleet and get to Asia in time.
The 2 dreadnoughts and six modern pre-dreadnoughts the French had in August 1914 would be no threat, and since you're stressing HSF here, meaning the entire fleet, it would be surprising if any French ships survive.
Roll your eyes at yourself, smartass. The closest Japanese base of operations is 2400 miles away from the proposed theater of operations. With a fraction of Germany's mercantile shipping, a navy that could concieveably devour it's coal reserves in this action, and the neccessity of transporting troops, they're over-extended.
You must be right, look at their crappy fleet and its crappy performance during the real WW1...no wait.
Such stunning acievement! Did they REALLY outnumber a single antique TB and armored cruiser at Tsingtao????? Wow, that's special!
The heroism of taking those islands, why, some were even defended by TENS of people!


Quoting Japanese naval exploits during WWI isn't only laughable, it's kinda sad.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

[quote="Pablo Sanchez"] You're an idiot. Germany has to actually get those numbers to the Pacific, which it simply will be unable to do. Tell us, how will the High Seas Fleet get to and engage the Japanese fleet? [quote]You should pay more attention to what you're reading. I was addressing his claim that Japan could outbuild Germany.
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Well, you sure got me, genius! Tell us brainiac, how this is not basesless specualtion.
What are the conditions of the treaties?
What are the demands of the victors?
What are the financial conditions in the defeated countries?
Would the victors demand crippling reparations?
Unless you're defining those conditions, you're blowing smoke up my ass about "the aftermath of real life WWI" and how it relates to any outcomes of this scenario.
1) Between...?
2) France will lose colonies to Italy and Germany and possibly Nice, Piedmont, or Corsica to Italy. Russia loses Poland and possibly more.
3) Whatever the Central Powers want, they're in the position to demand it.
4) Whatever they feel like. Who's going to stop them from carrying off anything that isn't bolted down?

Look at how bad Germany was screwed over in real life and it only experienced a change of government. If France fails to hold back Germany (likely), they'll be run down just like 1871. But this time they can demand unconditional surrender.

The aftermath of WW1 is perfectly relevant. Germany's ego was brused but none of the nationalistic fervor left them. Why would it be any different with France?
What the fuck does Italy have to do with this?
Probably something to do with being a Central Power and all...
England could always outbuild Germany.
And WW2 proves your point...no wait.
Now that the only thing that makes sense in the above has been addressed, we're left with WHAT THE FUCK?
That's odd, I was trying to meet the WTF level of your idea that England will stay neutral or join Germany in the next war, totally ignoring the fact that they would be feeding their greatest threat.
This is an entertaining sidetrack to a comment about Germany gaining ground in a country they had huge holdings in, and a SUPER way to answer a question.
Aw, am I being the big bad bully now?
The comment stands. France would give it's Asian colonies to Japan just to keep them out of Germany's hands, and drag neutral Japan into war with Germany.
That's bongtastic, asshole
That's also not what I typed, illiterate Reichophile. Japan would have no problem sweeping up the German islands and Chinese enclave because the Germans aren't getting there. What do you think neutrality is, Britain pinky-swearing not to attack anyone and drilling holes in the hulls of their ships? The Germans need those ships to discourage Britain from doing anything for France.
If you'd bothered to even casually research that event, you'd know that ship wasn't even MOVING when it was attacked.
Yeah, those battleships just sail circles around torpedo boats...no wait.
What this means in a discussion about German ships is beyond me, anyway. German dreadnoughts shrugged off individual torpedo and mine hits, the battlecruiser Seydlitz took a torpedo, 21 heavy shells, and numerous medium shells and still made it home. And here's a hint, battleships are built stronger than batlecruisers. If you think you're proving something by relating an incident about a non German, unprepared, immobile battleship, you're very mistaken.
My heavens, it stopped one torpedo? Surely it is invincible! Last time I checked, torpedo boats don't pack turrets or displace 16,000 tons, too.
The 2 dreadnoughts and six modern pre-dreadnoughts the French had in August 1914 would be no threat, and since you're stressing HSF here, meaning the entire fleet, it would be surprising if any French ships survive.
What is with you and the big ships? Are they invulnerable to submarines and torpedoes now? And I stress nothing, you're the one claiming Germany is going to send tons of ships at Japan and also defend their scattered islands AND invade French Indochina. Last time I checked, the passenger vessels they'll be using as troopships don't hold up to heavy gunfire. Nor do they have the range to keep supplying the HSF all the way to China. It'd be a funny sight watching the horribly top-heavy Imperator attempting to coal a battleship in the middle of the Cape of Good Hope. Right before he runs out of coal himself.
Such stunning acievement! Did they REALLY outnumber a single antique TB and armored cruiser at Tsingtao????? Wow, that's special!
The heroism of taking those islands, why, some were even defended by TENS of people!


Quoting Japanese naval exploits during WWI isn't only laughable, it's kinda sad.
And this demonstrates how this won't be repeated, exactly? Maybe the Japanese will throw down their rifles and use samurai swords for you, but only if you say "please."
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Frank Hipper
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Post by Frank Hipper »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
The aftermath of WW1 is perfectly relevant. Germany's ego was brused but none of the nationalistic fervor left them. Why would it be any different with France?
Maybe Germany wouldn't be so vengeful as to impose reparations that would destroy the country.
What the fuck does Italy have to do with this?
Probably something to do with being a Central Power and all...
Really? Italy's treaty was defensive. Why the fuck do you think they fought on the ALLIED side?
England could always outbuild Germany.
And WW2 proves your point...no wait.
That makes no sense.
You said Germany would continue building, I said Britain always outbuilt Germany, meaning that Britain's fleet would always be the stronger.....

Oh, I get it! WWII was caused by Germany's "massive" naval buildup.! :roll:
Now that the only thing that makes sense in the above has been addressed, we're left with WHAT THE FUCK?
That's odd, I was trying to meet the WTF level of your idea that England will stay neutral or join Germany in the next war, totally ignoring the fact that they would be feeding their greatest threat.
No, it looked like you were trying to create something out of thin air to make a justification.
This is an entertaining sidetrack to a comment about Germany gaining ground in a country they had huge holdings in, and a SUPER way to answer a question.
Aw, am I being the big bad bully now?
Well bad comes to mind, not in any superlative sense, though.
The comment stands. France would give it's Asian colonies to Japan just to keep them out of Germany's hands, and drag neutral Japan into war with Germany.
That's bongtastic, asshole
That's also not what I typed, illiterate Reichophile.
You are a fucking liar! A goddamned motherfucking liar! That post exists in it's original form for everyone to see, I copied and pasted it you fucking three year old!
Japan would have no problem sweeping up the German islands and Chinese enclave because the Germans aren't getting there. What do you think neutrality is, Britain pinky-swearing not to attack anyone and drilling holes in the hulls of their ships? The Germans need those ships to discourage Britain from doing anything for France.
*sigh* Look, little liar, Japan entered WWI because they had a mutual defense treaty with Britain. Seeing as how you've done nothing but misdirect, fabricate fictional scenarios to suit your argument (France&Japan), and show a misunderstanding of historical linkages, I shouldn't expect you to understand how a mutual defense treaty works. Well, honestly, neither did the Japanese, but they ain't going to war on their own, NOT in this.
quote]If you'd bothered to even casually research that event, you'd know that ship wasn't even MOVING when it was attacked.
Yeah, those battleships just sail circles around torpedo boats...no wait.[/quote] Stupid lying fuck, just because you don't want it to be, does not mean that a ship AT ANCHOR isn't vulnerable.
What this means in a discussion about German ships is beyond me, anyway. German dreadnoughts shrugged off individual torpedo and mine hits, the battlecruiser Seydlitz took a torpedo, 21 heavy shells, and numerous medium shells and still made it home. And here's a hint, battleships are built stronger than batlecruisers. If you think you're proving something by relating an incident about a non German, unprepared, immobile battleship, you're very mistaken.
My heavens, it stopped one torpedo? Surely it is invincible! Last time I checked, torpedo boats don't pack turrets or displace 16,000 tons, too.
You dont even see yourself defeating your own pitiful attempt at an arguement here?
The 2 dreadnoughts and six modern pre-dreadnoughts the French had in August 1914 would be no threat, and since you're stressing HSF here, meaning the entire fleet, it would be surprising if any French ships survive.
What is with you and the big ships? Are they invulnerable to submarines and torpedoes now?
What submarines did France possess in 1914 that could intercept a fleet at sea.
And I stress nothing,
You said High Seas Fleet.
you're the one claiming Germany is going to send tons of ships at Japan and also defend their scattered islands AND invade French Indochina.
I've never said anything about them defending the islands, I'm saying they would occupy Indochina as a conclusion to a European war. When your poor understanding of the political relationships stressed Japan's presence in this, I claimed that Germany was capable of projecting power due to the absence of a British blockade.
Last time I checked, the passenger vessels they'll be using as troopships don't hold up to heavy gunfire. Nor do they have the range to keep supplying the HSF all the way to China.
Funy how, in spite of everything gowing against it, the Germans were able to keep a few ships supplied at sea during WWI. And what a glaring, unique failure in German troop ships you've mentioned.
It'd be a funny sight watching the horribly top-heavy Imperator attempting to coal a battleship in the middle of the Cape of Good Hope. Right before he runs out of coal himself.
Luckily, the Germans wouldn't be so stupid as to think a liner could serve as a collier. Small merchantmen are much better suited. They would also plan this to where there would be ships waiting at pre-arranged spots en-route, like they managed to do in RL.
Such stunning acievement! Did they REALLY outnumber a single antique TB and armored cruiser at Tsingtao????? Wow, that's special!
The heroism of taking those islands, why, some were even defended by TENS of people!


Quoting Japanese naval exploits during WWI isn't only laughable, it's kinda sad.
And this demonstrates how this won't be repeated, exactly? Maybe the Japanese will throw down their rifles and use samurai swords for you, but only if you say "please."
Snipping what you wrote in the original post won't cover up your intent with it. Not in this forum. Anyone with the energy to scroll up can see that for themself.
But just in case:
You must be right, look at their crappy fleet and its crappy performance during the real WW1...no wait.
Link broken to appear in quoted text block.
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Frank Hipper wrote:Not the point. With a change in the diplomatic landscape, they could be built for an entirely different purpose.
The British will still build up there fleet to remain ahead of Germany, Germany will need to build an ever larger fleet for it to serve its perpose of placing English domination at risk.


Cam Ranh Bay had exactly what facilities in 1914? And why would neutral Britain allow the Japanese to operate out of Formosa?
:roll: Japan controled Formosa from 1895-1945. Of course by the same reasoning if the Germasn aren't allowed to fuel in Singapore or anyone else's ports they simply can't reach the Japanese.

Getting washed out on the open sea? We're not talking American ships here. From the Helgolands on, there was little to no interferance with German secondaries. The worst were von der Tann and the Moltkes.
Except 95% of the fleet never left the baltic or the North Sea and the fleet spent little time at sea period. Hell before WW1 germany had conducted fleet manuvers just once. The sea conditions of the Indian ocean and South China sea are often rather worse.

Japan could sortie at most 34 TBs in 1914, many of which dated from the turn of the century, or older. And that number's really stretching it.
Make me a believer as to how, and why, German TBs would "sink along the way". How many of their much smaller boats did the Russians lose to foundering in 1904?

None, because they only brought nine and chose there largest destroyers. You'll notice how that force managed to be unable to either protect the Russian battleline nor damage its opposite numbers in the IJN.
Again, the Japnese would be suffering from the same problems, with older equipment.
Once more its 2500 miles+ many bases and anchorages vs. somthing like 15,000 miles, if they can use the canal, no bases and few anchorages with a fleet that had poor habitability and endurance.
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Frank Hipper wrote:Provide one single scrap of evidence for this invasion theory. Just one.
I would think it was rather obvious, defeating the RN navy in the North sea (which the make up of the HSF clearly indicates it was designed to do) opens up Britain to attack and with Britain’s tiny army we were very vulnerable, Germany had already shown itself to be belligerent so we weren't going to rely on the assurances of he Kaiser when he told us that the fleet designed to attack the RN would never do so.
The Kaiser was a ham fisted blunderer, yes. His mother had a hand in his antipathy towards Britain, though.
Yeah he sure was, I'm sure calling the entire population of Britain "mad, mad mad as March Hares" failed to win him any friends and saying that his entire population despised Britain also indicated that Germany wasn't friendly to Britain.
Britain NEVER sought an ally until 1904, the entire period of diplomacy is called "Splendid Isolation" for a reason.
They didn't even seek one then ( actually we did get one before then with Japan but that was out only formal alliance, prehaps you should look at little further into matters), we simply made an understanding with the French, we had been quite open to doing this with Germany before (carving up parts of Africa, agreeing to carve up Portuguese possessions if they defaulted on loan payments), after the Boer Lord Lansdowne lamented that any alliance with Germany now seemed dead, odd thing for a man to say if he never had intention of such an alliance (informal or otherwise).
And please, do elaborate on this "supplying our enemies with arms", I'm sure an exploration of how the term "concentration camp" came into existence would be edifying to us all.
Oh yes of course the poor Boer farmers, Germany was helping them out of kindness, the same with the poor Irish who they had been shipped arms since 1910 and the Indian nationalists as well (although they didn't amount to much) since soon after the Boer war, of course Germany didn't have it in for Britain and we had no reason to believe they did either, completely unfounded paranoia :roll: .

Oh and by the way the Spanish invented concentration camps in 1890's in Cuba, sorry to spoil your irrelevant grumbling.
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Frank Hipper wrote:
Pablo Sanchez wrote: You're an idiot. Germany has to actually get those numbers to the Pacific, which it simply will be unable to do. Tell us, how will the High Seas Fleet get to and engage the Japanese fleet?
You should pay more attention to what you're reading. I was addressing his claim that Japan could outbuild Germany.
*sigh* Let me spell it out.

Germany can outbuild Japan in absolute terms, but the amount of strength which it can devote to fighting Japan is much less than the strength which Japan can devote to defending itself.

StarshipTitanic was not saying that Japan had more production capacity than Germany. That's simply false. He was saying that Japan can locally outproduce and outnumber the Germans. It's a fact of history, and it's what made the abrupt development of Japan so important to history. There was suddenly a new power which was technically only a second tier state, but it was located in a place where only the isolationist USA and the disinterested British Empire could hurt it.

It's all well and good to be able to chase the fox away from your chicken coop, but what the hell are you going to do if the coop is ten miles away?
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Sea Skimmer wrote:Once more its 2500 miles+ many bases and anchorages vs. somthing like 15,000 miles, if they can use the canal, no bases and few anchorages with a fleet that had poor habitability and endurance.
I doubt that the British will allow an expansionist power with dreams of naval domination in the North Sea to use their facilities.
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TheDarkling wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Provide one single scrap of evidence for this invasion theory. Just one.
I would think it was rather obvious, defeating the RN navy in the North sea (which the make up of the HSF clearly indicates it was designed to do) opens up Britain to attack and with Britain’s tiny army we were very vulnerable, Germany had already shown itself to be belligerent so we weren't going to rely on the assurances of he Kaiser when he told us that the fleet designed to attack the RN would never do so.
Your opinion is not evidence for an invasion theory. Being designed to fight the RN is not evidence for an invasion theory. That's what I'm asking for, evidence for plans for an invasion.
The Kaiser was a ham fisted blunderer, yes. His mother had a hand in his antipathy towards Britain, though.
Yeah he sure was, I'm sure calling the entire population of Britain "mad, mad mad as March Hares" failed to win him any friends and saying that his entire population despised Britain also indicated that Germany wasn't friendly to Britain.
Hurling insults was a two-way street, when members of the press are calling for an attack of the sort like Dec. 7 1941, maybe German indignance towards the British had some logical justification?
Britain NEVER sought an ally until 1904, the entire period of diplomacy is called "Splendid Isolation" for a reason.
They didn't even seek one then ( actually we did get one before then with Japan but that was out only formal alliance, prehaps you should look at little further into matters),
Yeah, I fucked up. Britain, Japan, 1902.
...we simply made an understanding with the French, we had been quite open to doing this with Germany before (carving up parts of Africa, agreeing to carve up Portuguese possessions if they defaulted on loan payments), after the Boer Lord Lansdowne lamented that any alliance with Germany now seemed dead, odd thing for a man to say if he never had intention of such an alliance (informal or otherwise).
The Entente was ground shaking, agreement or not.
And please, do elaborate on this "supplying our enemies with arms", I'm sure an exploration of how the term "concentration camp" came into existence would be edifying to us all.
Oh yes of course the poor Boer farmers, Germany was helping them out of kindness, the same with the poor Irish who they had been shipped arms since 1910 and the Indian nationalists as well (although they didn't amount to much) since soon after the Boer war, of course Germany didn't have it in for Britain and we had no reason to believe they did either, completely unfounded paranoia :roll: .
Yes the poor Boers, Milner started the whole fucking mess, on his own. The British government could have saved themselves all manner of grief by reacting differently.
Since 1910 in Ireland? Could you give us a link, please?

Oh and by the way the Spanish invented concentration camps in 1890's in Cuba, sorry to spoil your irrelevant grumbling.
Another fuckup, oh well, of course that makes nearly 30,000 women and children dead in them, whoever invented the term, irrevelant in a discussion of supplying arms to Britain's frightening, and dangerous enemies. :roll:
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Sea Skimmer wrote:
Getting washed out on the open sea? We're not talking American ships here. From the Helgolands on, there was little to no interferance with German secondaries. The worst were von der Tann and the Moltkes.
Except 95% of the fleet never left the baltic or the North Sea and the fleet spent little time at sea period. Hell before WW1 germany had conducted fleet manuvers just once. The sea conditions of the Indian ocean and South China sea are often rather worse.
The HSF conducted maouvers in the Baltic every summer from 1910, with the exception of 1912.
Poor sea conditions are a handicap to all units involved, most particularly TBs.

Japan could sortie at most 34 TBs in 1914, many of which dated from the turn of the century, or older. And that number's really stretching it.
Make me a believer as to how, and why, German TBs would "sink along the way". How many of their much smaller boats did the Russians lose to foundering in 1904?

None, because they only brought nine and chose there largest destroyers. You'll notice how that force managed to be unable to either protect the Russian battleline nor damage its opposite numbers in the IJN.
The Boikis are hardly comparable to the V 1 class, which were twice their size. Again, why would German TBs sink along the way?
Again, the Japnese would be suffering from the same problems, with older equipment.
Once more its 2500 miles+ many bases and anchorages vs. somthing like 15,000 miles, if they can use the canal, no bases and few anchorages with a fleet that had poor habitability and endurance.
Very fucking difficult, yes. I never said it wouldn't be. But not impossible.
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Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Once more its 2500 miles+ many bases and anchorages vs. somthing like 15,000 miles, if they can use the canal, no bases and few anchorages with a fleet that had poor habitability and endurance.
I doubt that the British will allow an expansionist power with dreams of naval domination in the North Sea to use their facilities.
Allowing one warring power to use them, but denying them to another is a violation of neutrality. British neutrality is what this entire thing hinges on.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:
Pablo Sanchez wrote: You're an idiot. Germany has to actually get those numbers to the Pacific, which it simply will be unable to do. Tell us, how will the High Seas Fleet get to and engage the Japanese fleet?
You should pay more attention to what you're reading. I was addressing his claim that Japan could outbuild Germany.
*sigh* Let me spell it out.

Germany can outbuild Japan in absolute terms, but the amount of strength which it can devote to fighting Japan is much less than the strength which Japan can devote to defending itself.

StarshipTitanic was not saying that Japan had more production capacity than Germany. That's simply false. He was saying that Japan can locally outproduce and outnumber the Germans....
What he said was this:
Japan can replace their losses and increase their numbers faster than Germany can hope for.
Unless someone wants to accuse me of misquoting him, like he did a couple posts ago, what are we left with, here?

If Germany splits it's fleet in two, providing a force to go to Asia, and continues outbuilding Japan, how does Japan locally outproduce Germany?Would Germany not send reinforcements to make good any losses?
Are you saying if Germany suffers major losses their focus wouldn't shift from the North Sea?
If that focus were to shift, would Britain still feel threatened and keep it's focus on Germany? While Britain didn't get nervous about U.S. building progammes until the late teens, very early twenties, with Germany off to Asia, they might.
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Frank Hipper wrote:Your opinion is not evidence for an invasion theory. Being designed to fight the RN is not evidence for an invasion theory. That's what I'm asking for, evidence for plans for an invasion.
You aren't following me, the HSF was designed to defeat the RN in the north sea, this was obvious now whether after accomplishing this the Germans would sit on their thumbs and not pursue it (I can't imagine why) is irrelevant the fact that once they had defeated the RN in the north sea Britain was defenceless and since the HSF was meant to accomplish this aim Britain had reason to see Germany as an enemy.
Hurling insults was a two-way street, when members of the press are calling for an attack of the sort like Dec. 7 1941, maybe German indignance towards the British had some logical justification?
Britain was positively Germanophile in the mid to late 19th century only with funding our enemies and threatening an invasion (or simply clearing the way for one since you don't believe one follows the other) did things turn sour.
The Entente was ground shaking, agreement or not.
As I have said Britain needed a continental ally to offset German aggression, we had no particular love for the French (still don't) in fact we almost went to war with them 6 years earlier over the Fashoda incident but the French knowing they were helpless executed a humiliating climb down.

Joseph Chamberlain tried in earnest to get an alliance with Germany in 1898 and onwards but Germany couldn’t be dealt with, they wanted too much in the water, too little in way of binding commitments (eager to play Russia and Britain against the middle), inclusion of the entire Triple alliance in such a treaty and so on.

Finally in despair Britain turned to our rivals and found France very accommodating, Britain was driven to France and Russia we would have preferred Germany (the Boer war and further German actions prevented this).

Yes the poor Boers, Milner started the whole fucking mess, on his own. The British government could have saved themselves all manner of grief by reacting differently.
I tend to think that the Boer war was going to happen anyway but that is getting tangential to our discussion.
Since 1910 in Ireland? Could you give us a link, please?
I remember reading it in a book (only one shipment got through due to some bad work on the RN's behalf and it wasn’t the size of what they would try and get in during the war) but I will have a look for it on the net later but with a quick look now I can found mention of shipments to Larne in April 1914 well before the start of the war.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/carson.htm Doesn;t give a lot of info but just put "Larne German weapons" into google and you will get many results.
Another fuckup, oh well, of course that makes nearly 30,000 women and children dead in them, whoever invented the term, irrevelant in a discussion of supplying arms to Britain's frightening, and dangerous enemies. :roll:
Whether the enemies of the Empire were pixies who only wanted to defend their magical dust makes no difference to the fact that they were enemies of the Empire and supplying them was an act which would curry little favour in Britain.
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TheDarkling wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Your opinion is not evidence for an invasion theory. Being designed to fight the RN is not evidence for an invasion theory. That's what I'm asking for, evidence for plans for an invasion.
You aren't following me, the HSF was designed to defeat the RN in the north sea, this was obvious now whether after accomplishing this the Germans would sit on their thumbs and not pursue it (I can't imagine why) is irrelevant the fact that once they had defeated the RN in the north sea Britain was defenceless and since the HSF was meant to accomplish this aim Britain had reason to see Germany as an enemy.
Tirpitz's "Risk Theory" on which the HSF was built, was explained by Tirpitz this way:
Tirpitz's Prefatory Memorandum to the second Navy Act of 1900, wrote:Germany, must have battle fleet so strong that, even for the adversary with the greatest seapower, a war against it would involve such dangers as to imperil his position in the world. as quoted in Richard Hough's "Dreadnought", The Macmillan Company, New York. First edition, 1964, pg. 23
Germany's intention was not one of conquest of Britain, but deterrence in order to achieve their colonial ambitions. Provide evidence for plans of invasion or concede the point.
Hurling insults was a two-way street, when members of the press are calling for an attack of the sort like Dec. 7 1941, maybe German indignance towards the British had some logical justification?
Britain was positively Germanophile in the mid to late 19th century only with funding our enemies and threatening an invasion (or simply clearing the way for one since you don't believe one follows the other) did things turn sour.
That does not redress my point that the vocal press and public sentiment in Britain was as virulently anti-German as anything in Germany was anti-British.
The Entente was ground shaking, agreement or not.
As I have said Britain needed a continental ally to offset German aggression, we had no particular love for the French (still don't) in fact we almost went to war with them 6 years earlier over the Fashoda incident but the French knowing they were helpless executed a humiliating climb down.
So you agree that the Entente was ground shaking.
Joseph Chamberlain tried in earnest to get an alliance with Germany in 1898 and onwards but Germany couldn’t be dealt with, they wanted too much in the water, too little in way of binding commitments (eager to play Russia and Britain against the middle), inclusion of the entire Triple alliance in such a treaty and so on.
Yes, Germany wouldn't accept the terms proposed, and Britain walked away wondering why they wouldn't accept what they were told to. They both behaved stupidly.
Finally in despair Britain turned to our rivals and found France very accommodating, Britain was driven to France and Russia we would have preferred Germany (the Boer war and further German actions prevented this).
Germany was not alone in the world in viewing Britain as the predatory aggressor in the Boer War, you know. Sympathy lay with the Boers, Germany tried to act on it.

Yes the poor Boers, Milner started the whole fucking mess, on his own. The British government could have saved themselves all manner of grief by reacting differently.
I tend to think that the Boer war was going to happen anyway but that is getting tangential to our discussion.
Milner being welcomed as a hero on his return did nothing to make the man in the street in Germany warm to Britain.
Since 1910 in Ireland? Could you give us a link, please?
I remember reading it in a book (only one shipment got through due to some bad work on the RN's behalf and it wasn’t the size of what they would try and get in during the war) but I will have a look for it on the net later but with a quick look now I can found mention of shipments to Larne in April 1914 well before the start of the war.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/carson.htm Doesn;t give a lot of info but just put "Larne German weapons" into google and you will get many results.
But, not 1910.
Many people here refuse to do research to back up other's claims, but in my brief scan of some material I found it would appear that was more of an internal problem, with the Ulster Volunteers shipping the guns in themselves.
Another fuckup, oh well, of course that makes nearly 30,000 women and children dead in them, whoever invented the term, irrevelant in a discussion of supplying arms to Britain's frightening, and dangerous enemies. :roll:
Whether the enemies of the Empire were pixies who only wanted to defend their magical dust makes no difference to the fact that they were enemies of the Empire and supplying them was an act which would curry little favour in Britain.
And war on women and children did little to curry favor in the rest of the world. How could Germany be so foolish as to attempt to assist them, didn't they know their place was to do as others wish? :roll:
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Frank Hipper wrote:Germany's intention was not one of conquest of Britain, but deterrence in order to achieve their colonial ambitions. Provide evidence for plans of invasion or concede the point.
Creating a fleet designed to threaten even the "greatest naval power," which is merely an oblique way to refer to Britain, is a direct threat to Britain's primacy in its own home waters. Even if it was not intended to help an invasion of Britain itself, such a fleet is at best a threat to it's fleet, the lifeline of Great Britain.
So you agree that the Entente was ground shaking.
It was perfectly normal and unsurprising in the context of the times. European nations from 1700-1914 created and dissolved alliances according to their needs and desires, not by any notion of loyalty.
And war on women and children did little to curry favor in the rest of the world. How could Germany be so foolish as to attempt to assist them, didn't they know their place was to do as others wish? :roll:
That's a red herring, irrelevent to the discussion of Britain's hostility towards Germany. The fact is that the Germans offered supplies to Britain's enemies; whoever the enemies might be, it's going to piss the British off.
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Frank Hipper wrote:Unless someone wants to accuse me of misquoting him, like he did a couple posts ago, what are we left with, here?
What I said is still correct. See below.
If Germany splits it's fleet in two, providing a force to go to Asia, and continues outbuilding Japan, how does Japan locally outproduce Germany?
It does it because Germany can't get its forces to the theater. In order to get their navy to that area of the Pacific they're going to need to get the use of foreign (probably British) stations to refuel; even assuming they're allowed to go through Suez it's a damn long haul and the Brits are unlikely to give aid and comfort to a fleet which was built to challenge them by a potential enemy who just fought a war of aggression against France.

He said "replace," not "outproduce." An issue of semantics, to be sure, but the first involves more issues than the second. Even if German fleets reached the theatre, they're going to operating on uncertain logistical grounds, probably suffering from a morale crisis, and they have no experience operating in the conditions of the Pacific ocean. I'm no naval authority, but I don't think they're going to be in tip-top shape. The second fleet will be even more uncertain.
Would Germany not send reinforcements to make good any losses? Are you saying if Germany suffers major losses their focus wouldn't shift from the North Sea?
If they lost one fleet they probably prefer not to incur the costs of sending another Expedition all the way across the world to defend a prestige goal. Even assuming that they would do so, they would still be operating under your Risk Theory which would compel them to maintain a force capable of confronting the British.
If that focus were to shift, would Britain still feel threatened and keep it's focus on Germany?
Since, logically speaking, the focus won't shift... yes.
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Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Germany's intention was not one of conquest of Britain, but deterrence in order to achieve their colonial ambitions. Provide evidence for plans of invasion or concede the point.
Creating a fleet designed to threaten even the "greatest naval power," which is merely an oblique way to refer to Britain, is a direct threat to Britain's primacy in its own home waters. Even if it was not intended to help an invasion of Britain itself, such a fleet is at best a threat to it's fleet, the lifeline of Great Britain.
This perception has no bearing on my demands for evidence. Of course it was a threat, it was created as a deterent.
So you agree that the Entente was ground shaking.
It was perfectly normal and unsurprising in the context of the times. European nations from 1700-1914 created and dissolved alliances according to their needs and desires, not by any notion of loyalty.
France was Britain's rival up till the minute of signing, practically. It may have been no Russian-German non aggression pact in it's impact, but it was an about face unprecedented for THESE two.
And war on women and children did little to curry favor in the rest of the world. How could Germany be so foolish as to attempt to assist them, didn't they know their place was to do as others wish? :roll:
That's a red herring, irrelevent to the discussion of Britain's hostility towards Germany. The fact is that the Germans offered supplies to Britain's enemies; whoever the enemies might be, it's going to piss the British off.
Taking a tone of morality for the British in discussing the Boers brings out the worst in me. :?
Germany's attempt at sending weapons to the Boers being blocked pissed the Germans off, especially when it was viewed as Germany taking the moral high ground.
International humiliation in that case fueled indignation, and that served to prompt the build up of the navy. Again, the Anglo-German arms race had two players, equally guilty.
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Maybe Germany wouldn't be so vengeful as to impose reparations that would destroy the country.
It doesn't matter if they destroy France, the idea of the Germans yet again penetrating as far as Paris will encourage the French to start preparing for a war of vengence against them to regain the lost territory.
Really? Italy's treaty was defensive. Why the fuck do you think they fought on the ALLIED side?
:roll: That's funny, the whole Central Alliance idea was, in theory, defensive. Did WW1 never happen?

They only fought for the Allies because Tyrol and Trieste were dangled in front of them, not because they felt a moral obligation, idiot.
That makes no sense.
You said Germany would continue building, I said Britain always outbuilt Germany, meaning that Britain's fleet would always be the stronger.....

Oh, I get it! WWII was caused by Germany's "massive" naval buildup.!
Were you paying attention to Britain as it sucked on America's teat before the US entered WW2? No threat from France and Russia ensures total domination by Germany and Britain can't outproduce the most highly-industrialized continent on the globe.
No, it looked like you were trying to create something out of thin air to make a justification.
No, it was one of the myriad situations showing why Britain would never in her right mind side with Germany or stay neutral in the next war.
You are a fucking liar! A goddamned motherfucking liar! That post exists in it's original form for everyone to see, I copied and pasted it you fucking three year old!
Do you understand what "literacy" means? Only a total imbecile would translate that quote to mean France gives Japan their colonies instead of Japan taking Germany's colonies. Oh, did you just do that?
*sigh* Look, little liar, Japan entered WWI because they had a mutual defense treaty with Britain. Seeing as how you've done nothing but misdirect, fabricate fictional scenarios to suit your argument (France&Japan), and show a misunderstanding of historical linkages, I shouldn't expect you to understand how a mutual defense treaty works. Well, honestly, neither did the Japanese, but they ain't going to war on their own, NOT in this.
Fictional scenarios?!? Last time I checked, Britain wasn't neutral in WW1, ignoramus.
Stupid lying fuck, just because you don't want it to be, does not mean that a ship AT ANCHOR isn't vulnerable.
Stupid Kaiser-fellator, no matter how much you wank those wank-naughts of your's, they can't defeat a swarm of torpedo boats or submarines. Especially half way around the world from the nearest base to repair at!
You dont even see yourself defeating your own pitiful attempt at an arguement here?
You are comedy gold! Tell me, how are deflections from turreted cannons relevant to submarine combat?
What submarines did France possess in 1914 that could intercept a fleet at sea.
Please plot out the course in which the German fleet will travel to Japan.
You said High Seas Fleet.
No, you say it's entirely possible.
I've never said anything about them defending the islands, I'm saying they would occupy Indochina as a conclusion to a European war. When your poor understanding of the political relationships stressed Japan's presence in this, I claimed that Germany was capable of projecting power due to the absence of a British blockade.
If you think mega-expansionistic Japan is going to watch the little Euros duke it out without taking advantage of the situation, you are blind. Oh I know, maybe they'll side with Germany, too!
Funy how, in spite of everything gowing against it, the Germans were able to keep a few ships supplied at sea during WWI. And what a glaring, unique failure in German troop ships you've mentioned.
And even more funny, those ships were totally ineffective. Glaring, unique failure as in the Imperator? The Vaterland still has to make it home from New York (I do admit it's entirely possible, though) and those are the only two ships that can carry enough troops for such an operation. The Bismark is a rusting hulk at this point and the largest ship other than those two isn't even half the size.
Luckily, the Germans wouldn't be so stupid as to think a liner could serve as a collier. Small merchantmen are much better suited. They would also plan this to where there would be ships waiting at pre-arranged spots en-route, like they managed to do in RL.
They did this all through the Indian Ocean, eh?
Snipping what you wrote in the original post won't cover up your intent with it. Not in this forum. Anyone with the energy to scroll up can see that for themself.
What the hell are you talking about? Anyone with a brain currently not being prodded by the Kaiser's 'Little Prussian' knows that that is a sarcastic statement. Tell me how the German fleet would prevent the Japanese from cleaning house just like they did. Maybe Tinkerbell will sprinkle pixie dust over the ships and coal trains so you can soar over Asia and drop shells on Tokyo!
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Pablo Sanchez
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Frank Hipper wrote:This perception has no bearing on my demands for evidence. Of course it was a threat, it was created as a deterent.
...

So? He claimed that the HSF was designed to invade Britain. No offense to TheDarkling intended, but that's wrong (it would have been impossible for Germany to equal Britain's naval development while still maintaining a solid land effort). But its status as a deterrent was more than enough--the building of a force designed to cripple the Home Fleet is the equivalent of holding a gun to Britain's head.
France was Britain's rival up till the minute of signing, practically. It may have been no Russian-German non aggression pact in it's impact, but it was an about face unprecedented for THESE two.
Unprecedented, maybe. Unpredictable, certainly not. The British had previously leapt to the aid of the Dutch and Ottoman Turks because of their faith in the Balance of Power system.
Germany's attempt at sending weapons to the Boers being blocked pissed the Germans off, especially when it was viewed as Germany taking the moral high ground.
International humiliation in that case fueled indignation, and that served to prompt the build up of the navy. Again, the Anglo-German arms race had two players, equally guilty.
What should Britain have done in that case? Allowed the weapons to go through? Debased herself and sacrificed the lives of her soldiers in the name of temporarily sating an aggressive and expansionist nation?

Germany was more guilty, because they scheduled the race and fired the opening shot. Britain wasn't hostile to the Germans until they endeavoured to become a threat in the North Sea and attempted to impede British policies abroad. The British-German arms race sprang from foolish foreign policy decisions made by the Germans.
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