British arms dealer arrested in US for smuggling SAMs

[RadiO]

BBC breaking news Story:

British arms dealer arrested in US

A Briton has been arrested after a suspected plot to supply a lethal surface-to-air missile to terrorists.
Western intelligence officials have confirmed to the BBC it was a multinational sting operation, involving agents from the US, Russia and Britain.

It resulted in the arrest of a British arms dealer at Newark in New Jersey on Tuesday.

Officials say he successfully imported a Russian Igla missile into the US and believed he was selling it to an Muslim extremist.

But his buyer was an undercover FBI agent and the arms dealer's voice is heard on tape saying he wanted the missile to be used to shoot down a large passenger plane.

The FBI have denied that the plane in question was Airforce One, the US President's official aircraft.

Although no actual terrorists are thought to have been involved in the operation, intelligence officials said it was a terrifying illustration of the vulnerability of Western nations to attack by extremists.

Over the last 15 months, there have been three foiled attempts by groups linked to al-Qaeda to shoot down planes carrying Western or Israeli passengers.

BBC correspondent Tom Mangold said the man bought one for $85,000 from a Russian factory and was promised another 50.

He said: "It may not have happened, but when the dealer says he wants to bring down Airforce One, it's pretty dispiriting."

He added the sting demonstrated "fantastic" cooperation between the US, Russia and Britain.

Washington officials are remaining tight-lipped about the operation but admitted there had been an arrest.

[Montcalm]

Stupid fucking Brit

[Stravo]

The fact that he was British is only tangental to the story. The fact that a SAM could be brought into the country is fucking terrifying and it has been tried over seas now for some time. AL-Qaeda tried to knock down an El-Al flight in Africa unsuccessfully. When they start trying crap out overseas for practice it inevitably leads to it being tried here.

Add to the fact that a SAM can knock down an American airliner killing up to 200 people for a coupla million and no loss of life on your operative's part makes it even more attarctive for these fuckers. You don't have to martyr yourself for Allah, just learn to shoot a missile and evade capture.

[Montcalm]

Stupid fucking Brit

forgot to add why would someone sell weapons to a group who could kill him cause he does`nt have the same religion as them.

[TheDarkling]

Stupid fucking Brit

forgot to add why would someone sell weapons to a group who could kill him cause he does`nt have the same religion as them.

Money, why else?

Tea isn't cheap you know .

[RadiO]

But his buyer was an undercover FBI agent and the arms dealer's voice is heard on tape saying he wanted the missile to be used to shoot down a large passenger plane.

It's this bit that gets me. If he's 'just' an arms dealer making a transaction, why would he give a fuck what his customers do with the thing? Is this guy a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser himself?

[Newtonian Fury]

But his buyer was an undercover FBI agent and the arms dealer's voice is heard on tape saying he wanted the missile to be used to shoot down a large passenger plane.

It's this bit that gets me. If he's 'just' an arms dealer making a transaction, why would he give a fuck what his customers do with the thing? Is this guy a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser himself?

His motives could have been purely mercenary: money, money, and more money. Besides, having your own weapon doing a lot of damage could be a turn on, too. What else could the missile have shot down in the US that would have made a big enough new?

[Vympel]

$85,000 for an Igla eh .... *starts saving up*

That's unbeatable value for money.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I think its only a matter of time before terrorists bring down some sort of airplane with a missile. Outside of Afghanistan or Iraq that is. As Stravo said, its pretty terrifying. Not only could they kill the 200 passengers and crew but what if its brought down just after take off or before landing. In the case of landing aircraft, that could bring down a jet into the office buildings in downtown. Taking off would land it in the business parks in Santa Clara. Either way a lot of people on the ground would get hurt.

[Howedar]

To be perfectly frank, I'm not convinced that a MANPADS could destroy an airliner in one hit. Certainly said airliner would never fly again, and would probably have to make a forced landing, but the missiles we're talking about are small in the extreme. Airliners have had entire engines drop off of the airframe and make it to an airfield, and I don't think a shoulder-fired missile would do a great deal more than that.

[TrailerParkJawa]

To be perfectly frank, I'm not convinced that a MANPADS could destroy an airliner in one hit. Certainly said airliner would never fly again, and would probably have to make a forced landing, but the missiles we're talking about are small in the extreme. Airliners have had entire engines drop off of the airframe and make it to an airfield, and I don't think a shoulder-fired missile would do a great deal more than that.

Well, that does make some sense. A plane landed at SFO after part of the roof was torn off. But I think there is a bit of difference with a SAM. The shrapnel cuts through many systems and the explosion can start a fire in the wing or engines that the plane cant handle.

I agree with you that airliners are probably tougher than we give them credit for, but a MANPADS brought down a C-130 in the gulf, not a small plane mind you.

[phongn]

If you score a hit on take-off you may very well down the airliner depending where/when it is. On take-off they usually fly within a fairly unforgiving flight envelope, IIRC.

Those engines are tougher than one might expect; especially the 'underwing' ones. Now, if it hits something like on the DC-10/L-1011 and knocks out a bunch of crap on the vertical stabilizer...

[MKSheppard]

$85,000 for an Igla eh .... *starts saving up*

That's unbeatable value for money.

Nah. Go with the SA-2 GUIDELINE for your moneys value...you can
knock the pesky airliners down at 35km...

[Howedar]

I agree with you that airliners are probably tougher than we give them credit for, but a MANPADS brought down a C-130 in the gulf, not a small plane mind you.

The C-130 has the misfortune of having the engine exhausts very close to the structure of the wing. Nearly all modern-day airliners have the engines hanging down below the wings several feet, with the exhaust even further down.

If you score a hit on take-off you may very well down the airliner depending where/when it is. On take-off they usually fly within a fairly unforgiving flight envelope, IIRC.

Maybe. However, "downing" is not the same as magically blowing up the airliner, killing all aboard. Worst realistic scenario I can think of is loosing all power on one side and all control authority in the target wing. This still leaves the tail and at least one other engine operational. Not a good place to be in, but unlikely to cause a fatal crash.

[CaptainChewbacca]

What happens once a terrorist shoots down an airplane over American soil?

I'd hate to see the crackdown on security after that.

[Vympel]

An Igla only has a 2kg high explosive fragmentation warhead. It's practically a given that the missile will make contact- no need for the proximity fuse. Best bet for hoping for a kill would be a hit on a fuel tank. Boom.

[Vympel]

What happens once a terrorist shoots down an airplane over American soil?

I'd hate to see the crackdown on security after that.

Well, it's difficult to see what sort of security they'd use to stop it. With 5km range against such a huge, slow moving, hot target, the MANPADS gunner has a plethora of options.

[Sea Skimmer]

$85,000 for an Igla eh .... *starts saving up*

That's unbeatable value for money.

That's actually very expensive for such a weapon, Stinger rounds only cost about 40,000 dollars. It must also include the launcher.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well, it's difficult to see what sort of security they'd use to stop it. With 5km range against such a huge, slow moving, hot target, the MANPADS gunner has a plethora of options.

Really a far worse option would be simply to bring up a mortar and drop a few dozen bombs onto a gate and the associated parked and fueled aircraft. You might not kill as many people but it would be impossible to prevent while aircraft could be fitted with infrared jammers and flares, though at great cost.

[weemadando]

With the exception of creating a rougly 10km radius exclusion zone around all air fields that is regularly patrolled there is no real way to guard against either of the scenarios here (MANPADS or mortar).

[Vympel]

That's actually very expensive for such a weapon, Stinger rounds only cost about 40,000 dollars. It must also include the launcher.

Well yeah I assumed that- I doubt he had an Igla launcher just lying around- that's the important part

[Vympel]

When the history of this week's 'breaking story' about the alleged smuggling of a Russian Igla surface-to-air missile into the USA is finally written, the subtitle should run as follows: 'State set-up; no relevance to terrorist threat'. JID sheds some light on a much hyped tale of stupidity, greed and political spin.

Despite the plethora of over-excited media headlines earlier this week, the classic 'sting' operation, which was organised by the Russian secret service (FSB) and the USA's FBI to entrap an alleged arms dealer allegedly seeking to sell an Igla missile to what he apparently believed was a group of Islamic terrorists in the USA, revealed little beyond the intelligence services' insatiable desire for positive publicity. Put bluntly, there was no realistic prospect of this sort of advanced weapon being supplied to anyone without the active collusion of the Russian state authorities.

Above all, most reports missed the main points. The real threat to the USA and its allies - and there is a genuine risk - comes less from hi-tech weaponry of the Igla variety than from the committed militant willing to commit suicide, which was demonstrated by Al-Qaeda on 11 September 2001. Moreover, Russia became involved in this 'sting' because its military has a well-deserved reputation for selling anything to anyone.

Isn't it great when the true facts come out? Thanks Jane's.

[Sea Skimmer]

Poor choice of title given Jane's growing reputation for hyping weapons systems based on three paragraph press releases.