Living in the Bible Belt...

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-08-13 07:48pm

I may be forced to live there someday...how would the lifestyle of an atheist be like in the Bible Belt of the USA?

Natorgator · Post by **Natorgator** » 2003-08-13 07:52pm

No different than anyone else. It's not as bad as you think.

Sindai · Post by **Sindai** » 2003-08-13 08:05pm

Lived there my whole life with no religion at all, and was never bothered because of it. Occaisionally I'd get asked by someone else if I wanted to go to church with them, but I just politely declined and they never pressed the issue.

Other than that, you're probably more likely to see people with books like "Darwin's Black Box," but it's not like you're going to be hiding from vicious mobs who want to lynch you.

On the other hand, I've always lived well within the Atlanta suburban sprawl, and the fundy-ness probably increases the further away you get from metropolitan areas.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-08-13 08:37pm

It really depends if you live in an urban or rural environment.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-08-13 08:53pm

In the rural areas you are screwed. I'd seriously recommend you don't reveal to be atheist it can make things worse especially at the school hierarchy.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-08-13 10:08pm

Oh, it's terrible. We'll definitely hang you, if we're not too busy lynching nigras.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-08-13 10:45pm

It depends whether or not you are stupid enough to mention you don't believe in God in public.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-08-14 10:57am

Durran Korr wrote:Oh, it's terrible. We'll definitely hang you, if we're not too busy lynching nigras.

This man speaks the truth.

Slowhand · Post by **Slowhand** » 2003-08-14 01:32pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:It depends whether or not you are stupid enough to mention you don't believe in God in public.

Seriously, I'd lie to see what could happen to me if I moved into a very churchy neighbourhood and sent out invitations to everyone on the block to drop by on Sunday mornings for BBQ and drinks in prelude to the football game at noon.

The real reason that half of this "enlightened" population goes to church is because the mother/wife of the family demands it. BTW, the reason she goes is to see what everyone is wearing and to stay up on the gossip at the after service lunch.

Sheep...

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-14 02:07pm

Slowhand wrote:
The real reason that half of this "enlightened" population goes to church is because the mother/wife of the family demands it. BTW, the reason she goes is to see what everyone is wearing and to stay up on the gossip at the after service lunch.

Sheep...

But how does that explain why the Creationists succeed in duping 44% of the US population?

Slowhand · Post by **Slowhand** » 2003-08-14 02:30pm

But how does that explain why the Creationists succeed in duping 44% of the US population?

I don't know if it's really duping. Not everyone goes because the wife says so, and not every matriarch goes just to see that the Jones' are up to. Some people go because they fear repercussion from the community they live in/with.

My mother goes to church because she genuinely believes in the grace of god, however, I'm also sure that she is a member of the church choir in some small part to "look" better in her church's eyes. Family tradition started her faith and she would pass it down to me if she could.

Bottom line: Regularly attending services is more often the result of indoctrination and conformity than true, honest and good, rebirth.

In the end, I don't give me mother flak about her choice because it's "whatever gets her through the day". Oh yeah, and "everyone deserves the right to be happy".

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-08-14 02:57pm

To which I quote the country song "If Mama Ain't Happy, Ain't Nobody Happy".

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-08-15 07:07pm

Just don't be too pushy with it and you'll probably be fine.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-08-15 07:59pm

Actions speak louder than words. Make sure that before you go around waiving your hands in the air shouting "Look at Me! I'm and Atheist!", that you establish yourself through your actions to be a good, honorable, an charitable person. Then there would be little the fundies can do or say when they discover your lack of faith.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-08-16 01:39am

I lived in Wichita, KS. for eight years, the only time I saw Fundies in the flesh was during "Operation Rescue" in the summer of '92. Evidence of fundies is a different story.....
Tulsa, OK. is a place that I did not feel comfortable being in, however. The gigantic "praying hands" statue and Oral Roberts university had a little to do with that. And the fact that we were *gasp* ilegally tattooing in the suburb of Broken Arrow. But then again, dancing is ilegal there, it's the town the movie Footloose was based on.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-08-16 01:59am

-rant on-

*groan*

The few times I've actually come out and proclaimed myself to be an atheist/agnostic (not that I shy away from it, it's just that it never comes up because it's not important) most people haven't cared. The worst I've ever had was a Christian saying "Oh, that's not good," which was followed by a perfectly friendly, civil discussion about religion and theism. I guess I'm just missing this land of religious intolerance which I've never personally seen but am constantly assured exists (probably because I'm a Privileged White Male), or it may in fact be that most Southerners have better things to do than to concern themselves with what your religious views are. Honestly, the self-importance of some atheists absolutely astounds me. You think you are so Special and Unique (and I'm not speaking to anyone specifically) that the rest of the world is supposed to take an active interest in condemning your lifestyle? Christians can be annoying, the Southern, fundamentalist types in particular, but most of them will leave you alone. Jegs is the kind of Christian you're most likely to run into in the South, not Jerry Falwell.

-rant off-

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-08-16 02:12am

Frankly, as someone who has lived in the South as both atheist and Christian, I can honestly say there's little difference in how people treat you (if any at all). Most areas in the Bible Belt are actually very laid back; a small percentage are the aggressive evangelists, and it's fairly easy to learn to avoid them.

Actually, the church I'm at is an interesting dichotomy because the congregation is fairly conservative (small-town Southern with families that have been there since the early 1800s), but the clergy is liberal (they're mad that the Anglicans beat us to having a gay bishop

). It all depends on who you run into, and whether or not you're an "obnoxious" atheist. There are some who seem to try to one-up the fundies, and they're the ones who have trouble.

Sindai: I actually own a copy of Darwin's Black Box. It serves as a reminder of what we have left to discover. It would be more interesting if Behe managed to use slightly more accessible language and cover his topics in more detail. The book as a whole is "decent but not convincing," to quote my professor in Theological Studies.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-16 02:13am

Durran Korr wrote:The few times I've actually come out and proclaimed myself to be an atheist/agnostic (not that I shy away from it, it's just that it never comes up because it's not important) most people haven't cared.

Good for you. However, most stories of religious intolerance do come from your part of the US, where even such a thing as a vibrator is criminalized.

The worst I've ever had was a Christian saying "Oh, that's not good," which was followed by a perfectly friendly, civil discussion about religion and theism. I guess I'm just missing this land of religious intolerance which I've never personally seen but am constantly assured exists (probably because I'm a Privileged White Male), or it may in fact be that most Southerners have better things to do than to concern themselves with what your religious views are. Honestly, the self-importance of some atheists absolutely astounds me.

And the self-righteous defensive whining of Southerners astounds me. YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING PART OF THE COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE STILL FLY THE GODDAMNED CONFEDERATE FLAG, FOR FUCK'S SAKE. How much bullshit can you pile up around that fact?

You think you are so Special and Unique (and I'm not speaking to anyone specifically) that the rest of the world is supposed to take an active interest in condemning your lifestyle?

Given the laws that exist down there (some of which, eg- the vibrator law, were actually passed RECENTLY and are NOT just archaic legal relics), I can point to more than just media impressions as evidence.

Christians can be annoying, the Southern, fundamentalist types in particular, but most of them will leave you alone.

Bullshit. You are a kid, and you don't have kids of your own. Try arguing with these motherfuckers over their campaign to influence the school system with their creationist bullshit, and you will discover that they are a whole lot less tolerant than you think.

Jegs is the kind of Christian you're most likely to run into in the South, not Jerry Falwell.

As I said, just try arguing with one of these fuckers over the issue of the public school system (or better yet, try marrying one of their daughters).

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-08-16 02:17am

I retract it all, I retract it all. I'm just shooting off my mouth without thinking tonight. Something about being back at UGA gets me more defensive about the South than I would usually be.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-08-16 02:31am

*Scratches head* The American Civil War started over tariffs and states' rights. Anyone arguing that it was all about slavery is ignoring the fact that Lincoln reinstated slavery in states after local governors abolished it. While most stories of religious intolerance do come from the South, some are pure exaggeration and others flat out misrepresentation of the facts (I have run across these situations, where someone essentially challenges a religious person's beliefs, debates poorly, and then kvetches about how they didn't respect the atheist's lack of belief...it's rare, but it occurs). I will admit many sexuality laws are ancient and prudish...thank the Puritans for the original laws, and be glad they're almost never enforced (and seem to be overturned on the attempts). And Durran was right that most Christians will leave atheists alone. Just because YOU have had personal problems with creationists does not make every Southerner one, Mike Wong. By implying such, you are being just as pigheaded and bigoted as the very people you claim to despise. I find the suggestion that my clergy, who support gay marriage, are reactionary fundamentalists to be quite a misrepresentation of facts. How much time have you actually spent down here? As I have said before, I have been both atheist and Christian. There is little difference between how the two are treated across most of the South.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-16 02:48am

The Dark wrote:*Scratches head* The American Civil War started over tariffs and states' rights. Anyone arguing that it was all about slavery is ignoring the fact that Lincoln reinstated slavery in states after local governors abolished it.

Oldest excuse in the book. Let's hear a similar excuse: "World War 2 started over reparations and national rights. Anyone arguing that it was about the Holocaust is ignoring the fact that the Allies continued anti-Semitic policies after the war". Same shit, different pile. The fact remains that the particular "state's right" they were fighting for just happened to be the right to perpetuate slave-ownership policies with impunity.

While most stories of religious intolerance do come from the South, some are pure exaggeration and others flat out misrepresentation of the facts (I have run across these situations, where someone essentially challenges a religious person's beliefs, debates poorly, and then kvetches about how they didn't respect the atheist's lack of belief...it's rare, but it occurs).

Debates? Who gives a flying fuck about debates when we're talking about intolerance? I'm talking about CRIMINALIZING actions which violate no one's rights but offend religious sensibilities, and that is common practice down there.

I will admit many sexuality laws are ancient and prudish...thank the Puritans for the original laws, and be glad they're almost never enforced (and seem to be overturned on the attempts).

I like the way you simply ignored the example of the recently passed vibrator law.

And Durran was right that most Christians will leave atheists alone. Just because YOU have had personal problems with creationists does not make every Southerner one, Mike Wong.

My point was that Durran's idea of Christians leaving atheists alone ignored the school system.

By implying such, you are being just as pigheaded and bigoted as the very people you claim to despise.

Bullshit, and I'm sick of this "oh yeah? Well, double dumb-ass on you!" retort from Christians who claim that anger at creationist insanity is somehow just as bigoted as the creationist insanity itself.

I find the suggestion that my clergy, who support gay marriage, are reactionary fundamentalists to be quite a misrepresentation of facts.

I find your insistence that creationism is not common in the South to be self-delusional.

How much time have you actually spent down here?

Very little. I do, however, know how to read, and your attempt to appeal to personal anecdote does not exactly outweigh the preponderance of creationist literature publishers who happen to be located in your neck of the woods, nor does it outweigh the other items on the public record such as the laws I mentioned.

As I have said before, I have been both atheist and Christian. There is little difference between how the two are treated across most of the South.

Once again, bullshit. Name one common Christian activity which was recently criminalized in Georgia.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-08-16 03:07am

Darth Wong wrote:
The Dark wrote:*Scratches head* The American Civil War started over tariffs and states' rights. Anyone arguing that it was all about slavery is ignoring the fact that Lincoln reinstated slavery in states after local governors abolished it.
Oldest excuse in the book. Let's hear a similar excuse: "World War 2 started over reparations and national rights. Anyone arguing that it was about the Holocaust is ignoring the fact that the Allies continued anti-Semitic policies after the war". Same shit, different pile. The fact remains that the particular "state's right" they were fighting for just happened to be the right to perpetuate slave-ownership policies with impunity.

And supremacy of states' rights over federal rights as implied by the Constitution. I admit slavery was the main states' right fought for, but it was not the only one. And WWII started because the non-American Allies ignored the conditions that were to be laid on Germany in the truce and treated it as a surrender instead. WWII began over Hitler's expansionistic policies. The true reason behind them are known only to him. This is all fluff and nonsense distracting from the main topic, though, which is how atheists are treated in the South.

While most stories of religious intolerance do come from the South, some are pure exaggeration and others flat out misrepresentation of the facts (I have run across these situations, where someone essentially challenges a religious person's beliefs, debates poorly, and then kvetches about how they didn't respect the atheist's lack of belief...it's rare, but it occurs).
Debates? Who gives a flying fuck about debates when we're talking about intolerance? I'm talking about CRIMINALIZING actions which violate no one's rights but offend religious sensibilities, and that is common practice down there.

I'll admit it occurs down here more often than it should, but as I said in my original post, most of the laws are not enforced, and they are being abolished as they are challenged (Texas anti-sodomy law as an example)

I will admit many sexuality laws are ancient and prudish...thank the Puritans for the original laws, and be glad they're almost never enforced (and seem to be overturned on the attempts).
I like the way you simply ignored the example of the recently passed vibrator law.

I like the way you ignore the word MANY. Many != all. I haven't heard of this law, and don't even know what state it's in.

And Durran was right that most Christians will leave atheists alone. Just because YOU have had personal problems with creationists does not make every Southerner one, Mike Wong.
My point was that Durran's idea of Christians leaving atheists alone ignored the school system.

Well, all I know is my public school system taught evolutionary theory as a set fact with no questions left to be answered. Any attempts to ask questions were squelched as "disruptive to the learning environment." The first I ever heard of Creationism was from an English teacher discussing why he always voted against any book that had it.

By implying such, you are being just as pigheaded and bigoted as the very people you claim to despise.
Bullshit, and I'm sick of this "oh yeah? Well, double dumb-ass on you!" retort from Christians who claim that anger at creationist insanity is somehow just as bigoted as the creationist insanity itself.

No, anger at such insanity is perfectly fine. I do apologize for this part of the post. I had a bad day and was feeling rather pissed, and I took it out on you instead of the person who got me all annoyed (who's in Pennsylvania right now and is rather out of reach).

I find the suggestion that my clergy, who support gay marriage, are reactionary fundamentalists to be quite a misrepresentation of facts.
I find your insistence that creationism is not common in the South to be self-delusional.

It's common among the unlearned. As the example of the my clergy members, John, Brinda, and Janet presents, however, it is not universal. Indeed, the creationists make up under half of Christians overall. Given that the south is more heavily creationist than the north, it's probably about half.

How much time have you actually spent down here?
Very little. I do, however, know how to read, and your attempt to appeal to personal anecdote does not exactly outweigh the preponderance of creationist literature publishers who happen to be located in your neck of the woods, nor does it outweigh the other items on the public record such as the laws I mentioned.

I see. So knowing how to read outweighs 20 years of experience. The last research I did on creationism, the majority of the books I found pro-creationism were from California. I read the cover pages.
As far as I know, in my "neck of the woods" there are no creationist publishers (actually, as far as I know there are no publishers, period).

As I have said before, I have been both atheist and Christian. There is little difference between how the two are treated across most of the South.
Once again, bullshit. Name one common Christian activity which was recently criminalized in Georgia.

[/quote]*Shrug* I'll rephrase: There is little difference between how the two are treated by the people across most of the South. What the government may say is quite different, but I have yet to see a fundie law successfully upheld in court (it usually falls back to the separation of church and state, which the Supreme Court currently upholds better than the executive). As I've stated, the laws are there but not enforced. Sort of like how shotguns are banned by the Geneva Convention, but every major military uses them. Or like how it's illegal to look at a moose from an airplane in Alaska (actually, that one might still be enforced...I'll have to ask the two Alaskans at my college).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-16 03:17am

The Dark wrote:As far as I know, in my "neck of the woods" there are no creationist publishers (actually, as far as I know there are no publishers, period).

Well, then that doesn't exactly prove anything, does it? Are you going to seriously deny that the South is the primary source of creationist strength in the US? I'd like to hear this straight-out, since you tend to dance around the issue with carefully worded phrases like "it's common among the unlearned in the South".

*Shrug* I'll rephrase: There is little difference between how the two are treated by the people across most of the South.

Introduce yourself as a young woman's date and say that you belong to a certain chuch. Then try the same thing but say "I'm an atheist". I seriously doubt that the reaction will be similar. You are arguing that if people don't come right out and start berating you in public just for sharing their air and being an atheist, then the treatment is identical. That is bullshit, and a logical fallacy to boot.

I see. So knowing how to read outweighs 20 years of experience.

Actually, yes. Personal anecdotes are worth precisely dick when talking about large societal trends, particularly when those anecdotes are narrowly defined situations being used as the basis for sweeping generalizations. As far as you're concerned, if you say "I'm an atheist" in public and strangers don't start beating you up, then the attitude toward atheists is just fine. Can you say "black/white fallacy"?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-08-16 03:18am

I sure as fuck don't want to get involved in this debate, but I have a question.

Mike, have you personally been in the "bible belt"?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-16 03:23am

Howedar wrote:I sure as fuck don't want to get involved in this debate, but I have a question.

Mike, have you personally been in the "bible belt"?

Tell me, have you personally been in Saudi Arabia? If not, then how can you make statements about their treatment of Christians?

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