Living in the Bible Belt...

[Howedar]

Its not a tough question, Mike. Have you been there?

[Darth Wong]

Its not a tough question, Mike. Have you been there?

Only in Florida. Are you suggesting that recent passage of anti-vibrator laws in Georgia do not exist because I've never visited, or that the widespread public display of confederate flags is just a myth because I've never been there, or that the power of Southern churches is just a myth because I've never been there? Or are you just playing rhetorical games?

By the way, it's not a tough question, Howedar. Have you been to Saudi Arabia?

PS. My brother was in Atlanta. He described it as downright "scary" in terms of the way races self-segregated themselves there. Of course, for people who are accustomed to it, I imagine it seems perfectly normal.

[Howedar]

Only in Florida.

Okay. Thank you.

[Yuri Prime]

Not to mention, I seem to recall an article a while back about a school somewhere in Georgia or Alabama having a whites only prom. Where else would that fly?

[Vympel]

[redneck]"The Confederate Flag's just a symbol of state's rights"[/redneck]

"Yeah, and the Swastika's just a religious symbol"

Thank's for that one Robin Williams.

[The Dark]

Just so you guys don't think I'm trying to completely whitewash the South, there have been four times in the 20 years I've been here that religious people have ticked me off.

Two were Jehovah's Witnesses who were going door-to-door (given that I live ~20 minutes from one of their Halls, twice in 20 years isn't too bad).

One was when a rather disreputable church tried to have me baptized without my parents' permission (was when I was about 5 or 6). We never returned to that one (had gone to visit with a friend of ours).

The last was a rather aggressive evangelistic lad at my high school. I had to work with him, as we were both on the drumline, but once he figured out I would ignore his rants, he stopped. We actually had quite an interesting religious discussion on a flight to Milwaukee between him, myself, and our cymbal instructor, who is a gay Buddhist.

Other than that, I've never seen social discrimination between religious and atheist. Sure, there are "church socials," just like other private organizations have events. I used to be part of the local numismatist's organization, which also arranged social events for its members. I will say a lot does depend on where in the South you end up, though. Lynchburg = bad (Jerry Falwell...*shudder*).

Vympel: The swastika's only a religious symbol if it points the opposite direction from the Nazi flag. Then it is a (Hopi?) religious marking found on their woven blankets. The Nazi swastika is reversed from the religious symbol.

DW: As I've said in another post (don't recall where ), national studies by Northern college faculty have shown that African-Americans tend to self-segregate nationwide, and other ethnicities integrate based upon income. I've been in Atlanta many times, and I do know what your brother's talking about, and I agree. It seems that education is unbalanced there, and most of the wealthy elite are white Northerners who moved down to take jobs with already existing businesses, taking advantage of the poor Southern education system.
And the power of Southern churches isn't as monolithic as the media makes it appear. Many churches (though a minority, a significant one) are moderate to liberal. The American media has a love affair with the Radical Right, however, as they present more news-worthy material than the more soft-spoken moderates and liberals (which is more likely to be watched: "Robertson Threatens Meteor Will Fall On Orlando," or "Powers Does Not Object To Gay Clergy"?). Having said that, the whole meteor thing was because Orlando flew rainbow flags in support of the homosexual community. The five homosexual people I know at the private, church-supported college I'm at are all happy with how they're treated by others within the school (and those are only the ones I know personally as friends, I'm sure we have more than a .3% homosexual/bisexual population). I think it really does depend on where one is. Most metropolitan areas are not heavily biased religiously, but the backwoods can be, depending on who holds the power there. Southern Baptists and Church of Christ tend to be more intolerant; United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Episcopalian, and Unitarian tend to be more open.

[Peregrin Toker]

Southern Baptists and Church of Christ tend to be more intolerant; United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Episcopalian, and Unitarian tend to be more open.

Funny that you mentioned the Unitarian Church, I have noted that other Christian denominations tend to look down upon the Unitarians. (Probably because the Unitarians don't believe in the Trinity, but it could also be connected to the Unitarians' generally open-minded stance)

[Son of the Suns]

Hmmm well I've lived most of my life in the Bible Belt, mostly in Abilene Texas, a town that's proud to call itself the Buckle of the Bible Belt. Having said so I think I'm qualified to comment about this.


First off, in responding to the first post, Sector31 I believe you will find that as long as you don't walk into a church on Sunday morning screaming that "there is no God" that you will be treated no differently than anyone else, whatever your personal beliefs may be. Most people in the South live by a very basic rule, that you mind your business and I don't bother you and the same goes for me. If you go around proclaiming yourself an athiest you'll more than likely have someone say something negative to you.

The few times I've actually come out and proclaimed myself to be an atheist/agnostic (not that I shy away from it, it's just that it never comes up because it's not important) most people haven't cared.

Good for you. However, most stories of religious intolerance do come from your part of the US, where even such a thing as a vibrator is criminalized.

As the Dark has said, most of the laws that get alot of plublicity are not enforced. Most of them are unknown to the public in general. The only law I know of that is enforced in Abliene is a law about having adult book stores and strip clubs inside the city limits. That was created a few years ago when an adult book and video store business moved in right next to a church.

The worst I've ever had was a Christian saying "Oh, that's not good," which was followed by a perfectly friendly, civil discussion about religion and theism. I guess I'm just missing this land of religious intolerance which I've never personally seen but am constantly assured exists (probably because I'm a Privileged White Male), or it may in fact be that most Southerners have better things to do than to concern themselves with what your religious views are. Honestly, the self-importance of some atheists absolutely astounds me.

And the self-righteous defensive whining of Southerners astounds me. YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING PART OF THE COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE STILL FLY THE GODDAMNED CONFEDERATE FLAG, FOR FUCK'S SAKE. How much bullshit can you pile up around that fact?

Very few people still display the Confederate flag in any form. Usually it's only older or younger people that do. For the younger crowd it's usually displayed on whatever their driving, either to go along with whatever their parents believe or to fit in with whatever redneck crowd they hang out with. If it's an older person it's more like their way of giving the finger to government and government regulation. Nothing will bring out their flags faster than someone telling them they can't display them. In the South the Stars and Bars have nothing to due with slavery, save for a very small, isolated group. Most of these people are proud to be Americans, they just don't like the American government telling them what to do.

You think you are so Special and Unique (and I'm not speaking to anyone specifically) that the rest of the world is supposed to take an active interest in condemning your lifestyle?

Given the laws that exist down there (some of which, eg- the vibrator law, were actually passed RECENTLY and are NOT just archaic legal relics), I can point to more than just media impressions as evidence.

One law past in one state hardly shows you the feelings of millions of individuals across a very large part of North America. What actually affect people are the unwritten laws that most people in the South tend to live by, such as everyone minding their own damn business. If someone goes around waiving a dildo in people's faces then of course some one might say something about it, but as for the the police raiding stores for vibrators, well, I'll believe it when I see it.

Christians can be annoying, the Southern, fundamentalist types in particular, but most of them will leave you alone.

Bullshit. You are a kid, and you don't have kids of your own. Try arguing with these motherfuckers over their campaign to influence the school system with their creationist bullshit, and you will discover that they are a whole lot less tolerant than you think.

You might have that problem in Canada Mike, but here in the South that battle was fought a long time ago. Those parents who do not believe in evolution teach their children differently at home, because they know their children will be taught evolution at school.

Jegs is the kind of Christian you're most likely to run into in the South, not Jerry Falwell.

As I said, just try arguing with one of these fuckers over the issue of the public school system (or better yet, try marrying one of their daughters).

Anyone who's been around here awhile knows about what happened to you Mike, and I'm sorry it did, but that's a personal issue. Many of the people I know here, most of them very devout Christians, don't have a big problem with people marring outside their race. My grandfather is a Babtist peacher and about as much of a fundie as you can be, but he still married his grandaughter to a black man.

[Son of the Suns]

And Durran was right that most Christians will leave atheists alone. Just because YOU have had personal problems with creationists does not make every Southerner one, Mike Wong.

My point was that Durran's idea of Christians leaving atheists alone ignored the school system.

Evolution is taught as fact in all public schools in the South, and the religious beliefs of the school boards and pricipals have little bearing on athiest students. It mioght be a problem in your part of the world but not mine.

I find the suggestion that my clergy, who support gay marriage, are reactionary fundamentalists to be quite a misrepresentation of facts.

I find your insistence that creationism is not common in the South to be self-delusional.

Belief in creation is common in the South, as it is in much of the world, but it is not taught in publicly funded schools.

How much time have you actually spent down here?

Very little. I do, however, know how to read, and your attempt to appeal to personal anecdote does not exactly outweigh the preponderance of creationist literature publishers who happen to be located in your neck of the woods, nor does it outweigh the other items on the public record such as the laws I mentioned.

You mention one law Mike, that was past in one state, and the number of creationist authors that are located in this part of America does not affect the attitudes of the people in it.

As I have said before, I have been both atheist and Christian. There is little difference between how the two are treated across most of the South.

Once again, bullshit. Name one common Christian activity which was recently criminalized in Georgia.

There is a difference between living in a place and reading about it Mike. To disregard the observations and experiences of people who have lived in this area most if not all of their lives seems foolish to me.

[MKSheppard]

And the self-righteous defensive whining of Southerners astounds me. YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING PART OF THE COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE STILL FLY THE GODDAMNED CONFEDERATE FLAG, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

INCLUDING ME!

I fly it whenever I get fucking PISSED at our government.

[HemlockGrey]

You know, the Confederacy was a fairly shit-ass government, too.

[Son of the Suns]

*Shrug* I'll rephrase: There is little difference between how the two are treated by the people across most of the South.

Introduce yourself as a young woman's date and say that you belong to a certain chuch. Then try the same thing but say "I'm an atheist". I seriously doubt that the reaction will be similar. You are arguing that if people don't come right out and start berating you in public just for sharing their air and being an atheist, then the treatment is identical. That is bullshit, and a logical fallacy to boot.

Your making some pretty big assumptions Mike. You assume that the date's parents are not athiests themselves, which many Southerners are. You assume that if the parent's do belong to some religion that they caree if their daughter is dating someone who is an athiest, which many don't. You assume that if the parent's do care that they are willing to butt in and try to interfer, which many won't. In this case you are the one making the sweeping generalization.


If you want a real fight then try introducing yourself as a Methodist to a Southern Babtist family. If you actually lived here you'd find that Christians are more likely to be intolerant of other Christians who are of a different denomination, not of another religion, or no religion at all.

[Son of the Suns]

You know, the Confederacy was a fairly shit-ass government, too.

That's enough from the peanut gallery Cyril, start another thread if you want to talk about the merits, or lack thereof, of the Confedrate government.

[Darth Wong]

You know, people who try to contradict news articles and laws about intolerance (even including accounts of direct observation from my own brother, not to mention an old high school friend who lived down there for years) by simply saying "you haven't personally been there" are so full of shit that they need a fucking release valve.

Among other bullshit excuses for Southern racism and religious insanity I've seen so far, I've heard:

1) "The North is just as bad" (by this, they mean California, or Massachusetts). Of course, if they looked at my location tag, they might realize that I don't think California is fucking Northern. Perhaps some people failed high school geography? Or perhaps I should clarify by saying "New York and Toronto".

2) "It's really not that bad down here". And what is this based on, since every Toronto resident I've known who's spent any time down there reports that it's genuinely shocking how people self-segregate? People who live in that environment are used to it; they have no external frame of reference. Frankly, their protestations are LESS valid than the observations of somebody else who comes from a different environment and passes through.

[Son of the Suns]

And the self-righteous defensive whining of Southerners astounds me. YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING PART OF THE COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE STILL FLY THE GODDAMNED CONFEDERATE FLAG, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

INCLUDING ME!

I fly it whenever I get fucking PISSED at our government.

And there you go, a typical in-your-face young Southerner who doesn't like his government's actions. There's alot of them around, but their hardly in the majority, they just look that way because their louder than everyone else.




Plus I think he's a little insecure about his sexuality, but that's another matter altogather.

[Son of the Suns]

You know, people who try to contradict news articles and laws about intolerance (even including accounts of direct observation from my own brother, not to mention an old high school friend who lived down there for years) by simply saying "you haven't personally been there" are so full of shit that they need a fucking release valve.

Getting angry? All I'm saying is that dismissing the observations of people who have lived here, who I might add have no reason to lie to you, is not rational.

1) "The North is just as bad" (by this, they mean California, or Massachusetts). Of course, if they looked at my location tag, they might realize that I don't think California is fucking Northern. Perhaps some people failed high school geography? Or perhaps I should clarify by saying "New York and Toronto".

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the conditions of the North and South are the same.

2) "It's really not that bad down here". And what is this based on, since every Toronto resident I've known who's spent any time down there reports that it's genuinely shocking how people self-segregate? People who live in that environment are used to it; they have no external frame of reference. Frankly, their protestations are LESS valid than the observations of somebody else who comes from a different environment and passes through.

How did we jump from creationists to self-segregation? Anyways, as far as self segregation goes, that's a personal choice spurred by centuries of tradition. While I'd agree that it's not good how is that bad? and how is it racism? If people want to live around people of the same color that's their choice, not one that I agree with, but still their choice. So long as they are not discriminated against, how is it racism?

[Darth Wong]

If people want to live around people of the same color that's their choice, not one that I agree with, but still their choice. So long as they are not discriminated against, how is it racism?

"Separate but equal" is NOT equal. If you don't understand how segregation is racism, you're a fucking moron.

[Hamel]

You see enough vehicles in Ohio with confederate stickers, and it's even worse the further south you go. Even many northerners have a southern mentality. Anyways, anyone trying to tell you that people are exaggerating what goes on in the bible belt and the south are bullshitting you beyond belief. I don't know who the FUCK they are trying to kid.

[Son of the Suns]

If people want to live around people of the same color that's their choice, not one that I agree with, but still their choice. So long as they are not discriminated against, how is it racism?

"Separate but equal" is NOT equal. If you don't understand how segregation is racism, you're a fucking moron.

If people have the ability to move into a better neighborhood or attend a better school or use better facilities but choose not to because the do not wish to be around people of a certain color or ethnicity then it is their own fault, never the less it is still their choice. If you are talking about forced segregation then I agree whole heartedly Mike, but I though you were referring to self-segregation.

[Shinova]

"Separate but equal" is NOT equal. If you don't understand how segregation is racism, you're a fucking moron.

I thought he was talking about self-segregation. Which I think is an extreme term for ethnic groups simply clustering around people like themselves.

[Son of the Suns]

You see enough vehicles in Ohio with confederate stickers, and it's even worse the further south you go. Even many northerners have a southern mentality.

What do you mean by Southern mentality? If you mean by that that they don't like government regulation well I'd believe you. But if you mean that they want back slavery and a long dead government then I'd be doubtful.

Anyways, anyone trying to tell you that people are exaggerating what goes on in the bible belt and the south are bullshitting you beyond belief. I don't know who the FUCK they are trying to kid.

What do you mean by "what goes on?" I'm assuming you mean something other than what's already being discussed, otherwise you'd be more specific.

[Darth Wong]

If you are talking about forced segregation then I agree whole heartedly Mike, but I though you were referring to self-segregation.

Forced segregation is government-sponsored racism. Self-segregation is individual racism. They're both racism, and it's far too easy to chalk it all up to economics. One of the reasons that a state like Alabama could get away with criminalizing interracial marriages all the way up to November 2001 was that so few people even tried.

PS. You're talking to someone who was a victim of this supposedly harmless "self-segregationist" style of racism. I recommend that you either smarten the fuck up or shut the fuck up.

[HemlockGrey]

How did this go from the way atheists are treated in the South to self-segregation?

[Hamel]

What do you mean by Southern mentality? If you mean by that that they don't like government regulation well I'd believe you. But if you mean that they want back slavery and a long dead government then I'd be doubtful.

Glorification of the confederacy, obession with what they call southern "hospitality" and mannerisms, irrational fear of New England style gov't, and far more instances of racism than among northerners.

What do you mean by "what goes on?" I'm assuming you mean something other than what's already being discussed, otherwise you'd be more specific.

Obviously I'm referring to what was already mentioned in the thread.

[Darth Wong]

How did this go from the way atheists are treated in the South to self-segregation?

Somebody brought up southern stereotypes, which naturally include the issue of race relations. Of course, that leads into the subject of whether that particular aspect of the southern stereotypes has a factual basis.