NR Rank System: Something to make your head spin

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-08-16 09:00pm

During the time of the Original Trilogy, the rank structure for the Rebel Alliance seemed fairly clear. There were Army, Navy and Starfighter commands and their systems made sense.

Later, the Thrawn Trilogy was released, and things stayed reasonably consistant. We didn't really see the NR Army doing their thing, but the Starfighter corp and Navy kept their own ranks.

Then a whole bunch of other authors came in and things got muddled and crossed over. Suddenly, we have a General Antilles who flies his flag from Lusankya ... which makes no sense.

Anyone want to try a shot at reconciliation?

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-08-16 09:26pm

According to Star by Star a General gets stars.

As for figuring out why a General commands ships...who knows? In the Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy it seems hinted at that they might keep planetary rank designations as a courtesy (such as with A'bhat or however it's spelled), which may be why we have a General bel Iblis, and they may've let Antilles keep his Starfighter Command rank as well, since he is something of a hero/legend within that command.

As for the rest of the Generals commanding ships (I think there were some in Star by Star but they might've just been ground commanders and PDF commanders), I can't tell.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-08-16 09:27pm

Perhaps starfighter generals count as flag officers in the NR, and he's the highest ranking officer aboard the Lusankya?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-08-16 09:27pm

Actually high end generals have flown flags from warships in the historical fleet many times.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-08-16 09:29pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Actually Generals have flown their flags from warships in the American fleet many times.

Did they actually command them, though? That's the impression I got with Antilles and the Lusankya (and he and bel Iblis were certainly commanding ships in SbS).

What I always wondered is why they've had Admirals/Generals commanding only one, single, solitary ship.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2003-08-16 09:49pm

The Lusankya is a huge ship. it is as good as at least 3 ISD's

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-08-16 09:51pm

Agent Fisher wrote:The Lusankya is a huge ship. it is as good as at least 3 ISD's

What about Admiral Bell in Isard's Revenge then? She had a dinky VSD II.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-08-16 10:09pm

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/domino.html

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-08-16 10:09pm

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/domino.html

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-08-16 10:59pm

YT300000 wrote:http://www.theforce.net/swtc/domino.html

That doesn't offer a rationalization for why General Antilles and other Generals command ships. In fact, it lists Wedge as being in the Army when he took the Generalship (though that's just the DE sourcebook, AFAIK in Isard's Rvenge it was just a promotion within Starfighter Command).

Here's what Saxton has to say about Antilles:

SWTC wrote:Wedge Antilles: Similar rank to Biggs Darklighter in ANH. According to the literature he was promoted to Wing Commander upon Skywalker's resignation at the end of TESB. According to The Jedi Academy Sourcebook he switched to the army of the New Republic around the time of Dark Empire, and took a general's commission. His specific level of "general" is uncertain, but years later, in Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future he was junior to Garm Bel Iblis, who was also a "general". Allowing for some promotions, Wedge was probably a Lieutenant General (or not much lower) by that time.

There's also General Solo and the Mon Remonda Task Force. Though, like bel Iblis, A'bhat, and Antilles, they may've let him keep the General title as a courtesy (since he kinda had it in an Army/SpecForces fashion in ROTJ). Why I don't know, but it's all I can think of. Saxton says nothing of Solo's General rank during the Mon Remonda TF times, at least not on that page.

So refrencing Saxton in this case gets us his estimate of Rebel ranks (which are of the Hoth/Yavin type, certainly not what they were in ROTJ and probably the NR, which, in SbS at least, General's are mentioned to have "stars") and doesn't help much with Phong's question about why a General commands ships and task forces.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-08-17 01:42am

Does DESB really state that he went to the Army, even though General is also a rank in the Airforce?

I swear that SB had to be written by the biggest group of morons ever.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-08-17 01:42am

General MacArthur commanded naval task forces before, with naval aides to actually command and fight battles.

Also, aren't all US admirals on carriers naval aviation pilots?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-08-17 01:46am

Ender wrote:I swear that SB had to be written by the biggest group of morons ever.

Why else?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-08-17 01:48am

PainRack wrote:Also, aren't all US admirals on carriers naval aviation pilots?

Heralds back to the first days of carriers where they didn't want battleship captains in command of carriers because they feared the captains would sabotage the carrier program to have them keep building battleships. But yes, all CV captains must be former piolets, and on nuclear craft must be nuclear qualified as well. There is one at my school right now infact. Guy is funny as shit. When he has to take a test, he just orders people to help him (Like he is ever going to need to use a sound powerd phone if he is the captain)

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-08-17 01:55am

Ender wrote:
PainRack wrote:Also, aren't all US admirals on carriers naval aviation pilots?
Heralds back to the first days of carriers where they didn't want battleship captains in command of carriers because they feared the captains would sabotage the carrier program to have them keep building battleships. But yes, all CV captains must be former piolets, and on nuclear craft must be nuclear qualified as well. There is one at my school right now infact. Guy is funny as shit. When he has to take a test, he just orders people to help him (Like he is ever going to need to use a sound powerd phone if he is the captain)

I was talking about admirals.

I mean, is this true? Must a admiral, having his flag on a carrier be a naval pilot? If so, that could explain Wedge Antilles.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-08-17 01:55am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Ender wrote:I swear that SB had to be written by the biggest group of morons ever.
Why else?

If you have a copy, flip to the back where it talks about superlasers. They say Alderaan lacks a shield despite the canon, and give a technobabble explanation where neutrinos, which have effectively zero interaction with matter, do the bulk of the work. Then there is the fact that the declaration of Rebellion, published 1 month after Endor, is signed by a noghri (lovely little fuckup that one), it ignores the fact that the Imperial Civil War already happened immediately after Endor (thus making this the second one), and that that one would have been orders of magnitude more devestating, it claims that the NR retook all that territory then the Emperor struck while they were overextended and also that Coruscant was taken days after Thrawn's fall (so they retook all that territory in inside a week?).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-08-17 01:57am

Don't worry. A lot of that is cleaned up by canon or retconning because good ol' Stackpole wrote Isard's Revenge, rolling back the capture of Coruscant like six months.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-08-17 02:00am

PainRack wrote:
Ender wrote:
PainRack wrote:Also, aren't all US admirals on carriers naval aviation pilots?
Heralds back to the first days of carriers where they didn't want battleship captains in command of carriers because they feared the captains would sabotage the carrier program to have them keep building battleships. But yes, all CV captains must be former piolets, and on nuclear craft must be nuclear qualified as well. There is one at my school right now infact. Guy is funny as shit. When he has to take a test, he just orders people to help him (Like he is ever going to need to use a sound powerd phone if he is the captain)
I was talking about admirals.

I mean, is this true? Must a admiral, having his flag on a carrier be a naval pilot? If so, that could explain Wedge Antilles.

To be in command of an aircraft carrier, you must be a former pilot, yes. This includes Admirals. You can be an Admiral w/o being a pilot obviously, but to be an Admiral in command of a carrier you must have been a pilot.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-08-17 12:54pm

Maybe in the NR, if you were a naval officer, but could fly a fighter, and for some reason wanted to be transferred to the fighter arm of the military, you could.

Which would explain why General Antilles commands a naval vessel.

Why they would have a system like this though, is beyond me.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-08-17 03:40pm

You're assuming that Starfighter Command is subordinate to the Navy (like the modern US Naval Aviation or the RN Fleet Air Arm) while it appears to be its own independant service (like the modern USAF or Wing Commander's Space Force).

Interservice transfer - if allowed - should have a rank change as well.

As for the whole aviator to command ship thing, I find that unlikely in the SW universe. Do destroyer captains need to be aviators since they carry a few helicopters onboard? Certainly not. The captains of the Marine 'carriers' do not neccessarily have to be aviators either (though their XO must be one in that case).

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-08-17 03:51pm

Anyways, general observations: the NR Fleet seems to be the 'senior' service in the NR, for reasons I hope are obvious.

MacArthur commanding fleets was somewhat unusual; resulting from an Army-Navy turf war. MacArthur got SWPAC, Nimitz got the rest. I don't quite think that situation would apply. He may have been overall commander of the area, but he had his Navy guys do most of that work, IIRC.

So here are some examples of oddness:

General Antilles: A general who should be in Starfighter Command has lead major naval taskforces before (The New Rebellion, various NJO books) - and not merely in flying his flag, but rather commanding the force.
General bel Iblis: A general who has seen nothing but naval combat, yet has an Army rank. Shouldn't he be an Admiral?
General Solo: While he retired in the events of COPL, he clearly saw major, primarily naval, action, including the destruction of the SSD Iron Fist. One would think he would have at least done an interservice transfer - his General days were mostly special forces.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-08-17 03:55pm

Wait, the Republic SF use the English fighter system in the movies, but American in the EU.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-08-17 04:50pm

RogueIce wrote:
Did they actually command them, though? That's the impression I got with Antilles and the Lusankya (and he and bel Iblis were certainly commanding ships in SbS).

Yes Generals have directly commanded naval vessels, as opposed to simply having a fleet under their command that's within their area of responsibility as was the case with Macarthur. The fleet under his command had an Admiral in-between him and the warships.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-08-17 08:10pm

The New Republic Defence Force is a consolidated armed service. According to the books of the Black Fleet Crisis, there is a single, integrated general staff (the Joint Defence Operations Staff), and officers may choose the rank title they prefer (hence, General A'baht commands a fleet).

Publius

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-08-17 08:58pm

Publius wrote:The New Republic Defence Force is a consolidated armed service. According to the books of the Black Fleet Crisis, there is a single, integrated general staff (the Joint Defence Operations Staff), and officers may choose the rank title they prefer (hence, General A'baht commands a fleet).

Ah, thank you.