Signing of the Treaty of Bucharest.

[StarshipTitanic]

No,this is what I was talking about. Specific text highlighted.

A continent that Germany will be in near control over. Britain can't compete with that. Therefore, Germany will have more industrial power at its fingertips.

Why didn't you say Japanese assets, then? There's a bigdifference.

Because I would think that attacking Japan means attacking anything owned by Japan.

The Germans would be operating at extreme dis-advantage, yes. But the Japanese would be operating at extreme range for their ships, even being that much closer to home.

Say it with me now, FORMOSA!

Beyond the range of some their ships, even. While the Germans are dealing with a great deal more, this is no walk in the park for the Japanese, either. Dar-es-Salaam may be to far away for a damaged ship to make, and it may be very primitive at the beginning of this, but if the Germans are going to try for Indochina, they would be building it up with every scrap of resource they can. It would be beyond stupid to try this without biulding it up somewhat before the fleet even leaves Germany.

That would take time and there's still no way it can accomidate a fleet of the magnitude Germany will be forced to send.

The Japanese would need to provide escorts with a comparable range to the ships they're escorting, don't you think? Escort in this case would more than likely comprise their armored cruisers. You do know that gunnery ranges far exceed torpedo ranges, that any ships the Germans send east would be faster than those armored cruisers, and that torpedo engagement would be next to impossible. The faster ship sets the range of an engagement. If the Japanese escort with their few light cruisers, they're toast.
At the outbreak of war Japan had TWO modern destroyers, the rest were turn of the century anachronisms, with, at best, HALF the range needed. If the Germans attack Japanese convoys, it will be armored cruiser vs battlecruiser, battleship, or armored cruiser. Far beyond torpedo range. Torpedoes are not a threat, unless the ships being targeted are slower, or cannot run, or are surprised.

Japan will obviously need to develop long-range subs, just like Germany did when faced with the same situation. And still, Japanese convoys will be far out of Germany's way.

Then we have a repeat of Port Arthur with the Japanese being the ones blockaded, possibly.

Why?

Fuel limited all nation's naval operations at this time, with the possible exception of Britain. Yokosuka is 2400 miles from Saigon. The Japanese will also be burning the fuel stores they have onshore at a prodigious rate, nothing to dismiss.

FORMOSA, not to mention Indochina.

Getting them on target is the question, though, now isn't it?

Perhaps, but it won't be hard sinking ships from the vast supply horde.

I have shown that. Several posts ago. The British had NINETY modern destroyers at Jutland, modern destroyers. They achieved two torpedo hits on capitol ships.

Weren't those during night encounters? Regardless, a destroyer is far more visible and prone to take fire than a sub.

Japan, if they refit and force every TB they have, can get, at MOST, 40 TBs to sea. And that's including antiques from the early-mid 1890s that no one in their right mind would even contemplate using in 1914. The two modern destroyers and various older craft are not a significant threat. Japan had no effective submarines at this time, either.

Then they build some subs, just like Germany.

If the Germans could get passage for troopships through the Suez Canal, they might be at danger, yes.
Without the success against British armored cruisers that the U 9 had, it's not impossible that the French wouldn't even try this. Then again, if they're deperate, they could.

Ok then.

Leaving a piece of machinery to lie unused, unmaintained, for a couple years, is very destructive.
The Germans would be converting their own ship, fresh, and quite possibly by the same people who built her.

True, but so is extreme strain where the ship is forced to operate at routes over quadruple the length of their normal ones. Converting ships never really amounted to more than stripping out the furnishings and installing bunks, I don't see why the Germans would pay to refit their vessles before sending them off.

Germany's most effective commerce raiders were light cruisers, and a few converted merchantmen achieved moderate success, too.

Well first the light cruisers have to make it to the Pacific and be in a position to resupply from vulnerable merchantmen. As for converted liners, none that I've come across really did anything special. I am limited to knowledge of Atlantic liners, I admit.

As to having more sea to hide in, the Japanese can't go too far out of their way, they have their own fuel stuation to think about, and you can't sail half way around the world just because you might run into an enemy ship. Wildly impractical, compared to the possible risks.

They can get resources from China far more easily than the Germans can get resources from anywhere else.

The German merchant marine being free of the blockade is what I base my ENTIRE argument on.
Without the merchant ships being there for support, I would have no argument.
In the real WWI, even with the blockade, the merchant fleet played a partial role. Without that little contribution, what Germany did achieve at sea would have been impossible. With their entire resouces.....see my point?

I noted that I forgot about their fleet. Still, where do the supply ships get their supplies from?

You dressed a link with a comment.
You were apparently trying to prove that the Japanese, by taking German possessions during WWI, were a major threat and that their performance in WWI supported you in this.
I replied to that, and in your own reply to that, you edited out the comment in the link.

1) Right
2) Right
3) Wrong, or at least I did unintentionally. When I quote, I copy and paste. I figured anyone who wanted the link could go get it.

[Frank Hipper]

No,this is what I was talking about. Specific text highlighted.

A continent that Germany will be in near control over. Britain can't compete with that. Therefore, Germany will have more industrial power at its fingertips.

I cannot imagine Germany demanding all of France's industry as a result of a European war. They would have to colonize all of France! These aren't the nazis we're talking about.

Why didn't you say Japanese assets, then? There's a bigdifference.

Because I would think that attacking Japan means attacking anything owned by Japan.

Think again. Japan means Japan. Japanese or Japanese held means just that.

The Germans would be operating at extreme dis-advantage, yes. But the Japanese would be operating at extreme range for their ships, even being that much closer to home.

Say it with me now, FORMOSA!

Saying it isn't making an argument for it. Say Radius vs Range with ME! The destroyers/TBs are outside their radius operating from there. Any Submarines would have to be towed to get there, and could only defend the coastline.

Beyond the range of some their ships, even. While the Germans are dealing with a great deal more, this is no walk in the park for the Japanese, either. Dar-es-Salaam may be to far away for a damaged ship to make, and it may be very primitive at the beginning of this, but if the Germans are going to try for Indochina, they would be building it up with every scrap of resource they can. It would be beyond stupid to try this without biulding it up somewhat before the fleet even leaves Germany.

That would take time and there's still no way it can accomidate a fleet of the magnitude Germany will be forced to send.

If you're unwilling to take time to provide the barest neccessities, you have no business attempting this in the first place.

The Japanese would need to provide escorts with a comparable range to the ships they're escorting, don't you think? Escort in this case would more than likely comprise their armored cruisers. You do know that gunnery ranges far exceed torpedo ranges, that any ships the Germans send east would be faster than those armored cruisers, and that torpedo engagement would be next to impossible. The faster ship sets the range of an engagement. If the Japanese escort with their few light cruisers, they're toast.
At the outbreak of war Japan had TWO modern destroyers, the rest were turn of the century anachronisms, with, at best, HALF the range needed. If the Germans attack Japanese convoys, it will be armored cruiser vs battlecruiser, battleship, or armored cruiser. Far beyond torpedo range. Torpedoes are not a threat, unless the ships being targeted are slower, or cannot run, or are surprised.

Japan will obviously need to develop long-range subs, just like Germany did when faced with the same situation. And still, Japanese convoys will be far out of Germany's way.

Unlikely in the extreme. Japan built no effective subs during the course of the war. Apparently, they couldn't.

Then we have a repeat of Port Arthur with the Japanese being the ones blockaded, possibly.

Why?

If the Germans were to catch the Japanese at Saigon, or Cam Ranh, they could mine the entrances and blockade them in. All German ships smaller than a armored cruiser had some minelaying capacity. They had specialised minelayers to send, as well. Minelaying would be only part of any blockading action, albeit the easy part.

Fuel limited all nation's naval operations at this time, with the possible exception of Britain. Yokosuka is 2400 miles from Saigon. The Japanese will also be burning the fuel stores they have onshore at a prodigious rate, nothing to dismiss.

FORMOSA, not to mention Indochina.

Supply Formosa. Describe Formosa. Then we'll talk. Formosa's still 1000 miles away from Cam Ranh, at least. Too far to not be resupplying to get to Saigon when you're talking about the smaller ships. Put the Japanese in Indochina in a realistic situation.
A single light cruiser in the Indian Ocean was almost enough to postpone the ANZAC convoy going to Egypt. Would the Japanese risk it with two armored cruisers and four light cruisers hanging around? That's what Germany already had in the region in 1914.

Getting them on target is the question, though, now isn't it?

Perhaps, but it won't be hard sinking ships from the vast supply horde.

With what?!? Coastal subs dating from 1911?

I have shown that. Several posts ago. The British had NINETY modern destroyers at Jutland, modern destroyers. They achieved two torpedo hits on capitol ships.

Weren't those during night encounters? Regardless, a destroyer is far more visible and prone to take fire than a sub.

One was at night, one was during a massed torpedo attack. Massed attack, 1 hit, up to the minute modern ships.
Japan had no submarines that could operate outside of coastal waters. Until after the war, that is, when they got a dozen or so war-reparation German ones.

Japan, if they refit and force every TB they have, can get, at MOST, 40 TBs to sea. And that's including antiques from the early-mid 1890s that no one in their right mind would even contemplate using in 1914. The two modern destroyers and various older craft are not a significant threat. Japan had no effective submarines at this time, either.

Then they build some subs, just like Germany.

They had no effective submarines, they built no submarines. They had very limited industry.
And, more importantly, unlike Germany, they did not even design the few subs they had. They only built 5 out of the 12 they did have. It wouldn't be until the 20's that Japan built it's own designs.

Leaving a piece of machinery to lie unused, unmaintained, for a couple years, is very destructive.
The Germans would be converting their own ship, fresh, and quite possibly by the same people who built her.

True, but so is extreme strain where the ship is forced to operate at routes over quadruple the length of their normal ones. Converting ships never really amounted to more than stripping out the furnishings and installing bunks, I don't see why the Germans would pay to refit their vessles before sending them off.

This isn't supporting your electrical problems idea very well, which was what I was responding to originally.I can't see why the Germans WOULD'NT pay to ensure what could be done to get troops there, would be done.

Germany's most effective commerce raiders were light cruisers, and a few converted merchantmen achieved moderate success, too.

Well first the light cruisers have to make it to the Pacific and be in a position to resupply from vulnerable merchantmen. As for converted liners, none that I've come across really did anything special. I am limited to knowledge of Atlantic liners, I admit.

The Germans already had a squadron in the Far East, one that the Japanese tried to, but never did, catch in WWI. They managed to cross the Pacific, supplying where possible.
In this very different situation, they could wreak havok on Japanese supply lines, taking any coal they need along the way from their prizes.

As to having more sea to hide in, the Japanese can't go too far out of their way, they have their own fuel stuation to think about, and you can't sail half way around the world just because you might run into an enemy ship. Wildly impractical, compared to the possible risks.

They can get resources from China far more easily than the Germans can get resources from anywhere else.

I was talking about merchant ships to begin with, they'd be the ones trying to hide, after all.

The German merchant marine being free of the blockade is what I base my ENTIRE argument on.
Without the merchant ships being there for support, I would have no argument.
In the real WWI, even with the blockade, the merchant fleet played a partial role. Without that little contribution, what Germany did achieve at sea would have been impossible. With their entire resouces.....see my point?

I noted that I forgot about their fleet. Still, where do the supply ships get their supplies from?

Rules of neutrality do not apply to merchant ships. They can go anywhere they want.

[LordShaithis]

Japan wins. It has ninjas.